Still waiting for the bubble to burst here.
Our local real estate market is so falsely inflated it is insane. I've been keeping an eye on it in hopes of finding a place with a bit more land.
House that we live in now, we bought in 2004 $104,500.00 appraised this Sept (2008) at $289,000.00. That's a huge profit if we sell, however, anything more than 5 acres with a house on it is way out of our price range(upwards of $400,000).
Currently, we have .89 of an acre, so I am doing alright with 12 laying hens, garden, & greenhouse. I have 47 meat chickens living in my greenhouse right now, they are about 3 weeks away from D-Day and I am thankful we haven't had any snow or really cold weather yet.
I have a friend that lives behind us who owns 90 acres and let me keep a pig there this year. The two of us just bought a 20x60 ft greenhouse to share. It will be set up on her property. I'm probably going to end up renting a few acres from her for other crops I'd like to grow (like small grains) it's the cheapest easiest solution to my lack of land right now.
I sure would like to have a cow though! I know if I kept it at the neighbours, it would become an issue to get over there for milkings (I have 2 small children - neighbour has 3 small children - we all need a cow!) Too bad our husbands are not as agriculturally inclined as we are!

mxbarbie, you wrote: "Our local real estate market is so falsely inflated it is insane. I've been keeping an eye on it in hopes of finding a place with a bit more land. House that we live in now, we bought in 2004 $104,500.00 appraised this Sept (2008) at $289,000.00."

Interesting to hear. But you are probably influenced by the Lower Mainland population over-spill (or urban refugee-ism), right? I'm near Nakusp & Nelson. In my rural valley, the asking prices have come down about 25% in the last two months. They may, of course, come down even more before long - who knows?

We're way up north near Terrace. So I hope it isn't Vancouver overspill!! LOL
Actually, I think the inflated prices have more to do with the new port in Prince Rupert and the proposed Alcan expansion in Kitimat.
Either way (or both) there's no industry to speak of in Terrace, (forestry is at a standstill, mining exploration is meeting oppostition from Fist Nations and environmentalist ~more power to them~ )but the real estate just goes up, up, up. I'm not sure who they think is going to be buying this property, it will be interesting to see what happens over the winter.

~ I lived in Cranbrook for 10 years, moved back here in '96 haven't ventured back that way at all. There is quite a large community of sustainable living folks in that area (Nelson) from what I hear.

Local rural properties have essentially stopped selling (or nearly so). But virtually no one I know is worried by that, except for a couple guys I know who worked together and built a spec house last summer.

But everyone is glad just to have land & a home.

Some nearby neighbours (family of four) went into debt to the tune of $100,000 to complete a house, getting their loan about five months ago - before the economic downturn revealed itself in all it's scariness.

Most households around here can get by, barring difficult debt problems. They can, if need be, expand the garden, take on more chickens (and maybe raise a calf or pig). Of course, they'll still be wanting to buy gasoline or diesel, grain & flour products, coffee, cooking oil (etc, etc). People (especially maybe the kids in the families) are accustomed to a pretty high standard of living that may be tough to do without... but it can be done, if need be.

Most people I know are feeling okay, basically.

Having livestock again and a bit more space is something I have been planning for a while. For unexpected reasons 2009 will be bumper year for me financially and I will be poised to jump on the next acreage I lay my eyes on. The only reason I'm not there already is that prices in this area have not dropped as far as I think they will (Raleigh NC).

In addition to prices dropping I expect to see a reduction in the rules and regulations on small scale farming. I think things like HOA and non-gardening, non-backyard livestock covenants will be reduced or abolished completely with more and more people going through tough times.

Currently I live in a suburb that does not allow any livestock, whereas the big city does (!). So, to have anything beyond a dog or a cat I have to leave the tiny red-neck suburb and move to the big city. Lucky for me the side of town that would work out the best for my job is also the side of town where there is more horse property and small acreages available. So now I am in a sit and wait position. I have looked at places but they either need way too much construction work to make them liveable for the price or the lots were like long skinny slivers of land - not the best for crops or animals.

What mxbarbie describes is something I can only dream about - neighbors that cooperate with each other! The last time I lived out in the sticks my neighbors turned out to be hardened criminals avoiding the law. Now I live in town and my neighbors are just plain hostile to each other and to me. I am being very careful with my choice on the next piece of property I buy. I know I can't control my neighbors but for once I would like to have good ones (and some chickens, and some fruit trees,,, and a bigger garden...).

More power to ya, John.

I have a lot of neighbors I can cooperate withm, and some I cannot. But there are enough that interchange and mutual assistance will be realities to the degree required by circumstances.

Personally, I'm not predicting a super-dire depression just yet. Thinkng more of the need to economize and be a bit more self-reliant during an "economic downturn."

J.

Not much selling in my area but the prices have not really dropped. Seems people are just sitting back and waiting to see?

islandmanmitch, interesting. Thanks.

What about the outlook and mood of the people in your area who already have land? Do you think they're feeling relatively secure? Do they seem to be taking any extra steps to ensure they can live more from the land itself, if necessary?

We are all saying we don't think it has hit bottom yet. But we hope it is close. Do I feel secure owning property? I own 25 acres free and clear. Owning the property gives some security but on the other hand it means I have to pay out thousands of dollars each year to keep the tax man from taking it away. In hard times it would mean I would be tied to the land. Depending on Mother Nature for to much. It would mean planting and tending a bigger garden. Replace the horses with cows or goats. Get more chickens. Get some hogs. Start eating the fish from the pond instead of catch and release. I would hate to know I had to live off the land. Playing farmer is one thing but my life depending on it is a scary thought. I have bought the flour mill and hope I get an answer on the wheat I need that I post earlier. I want to learn more about self reliance and hope it stays a hobby not a life style.

Mitch, I agree with your sentiment. To HAVE to live off the land could be tough. Our family makes a very active hobby of it. We have ten acres (prime acres) with a spring fed pond. We raise chickens, turkeys, ducks, dairy goats, and bees. We have raised one steer, which worked out great. We have a couple good sized gardens and raise most of our own vegetables as well as corn for meal and grits. But it is A LOT of work!

I think prices are coming down here, in Northeast Oklahoma. MxBarbie, I'd suggest that you consider dairy goats even before a cow. A good dairy goat will give up to about 1 1/2 gallons of milk a day, for about 7-8 mos. I've heard of some which milk through, for over a year. They are sweet and easy to handle. If they step on your foot it only smarts a little : ) One can have a couple milkers, even staggering their breeding to stretch the milking season longer. We eat the extras which are born each year. A goat is about as large an animal as I care to butcher myself (forget a steer!). The meat is excellent. We rate goats right up there with chickens, perhaps even a slight ahead of chickens, for practical productivity.

George
Tahlequah, OK

Hey... glad to see all the practical info (goats vs cattle, plus chat about hogs, chickens, corn & other grains, etc).

Here's something I've been thinking about - spurred by the apparent hard-times stretch now and for the next while. At one time, an older friend gave me his stack of Mother Earth News, a homestead-oriented magazine that got going around 1970. Anyway, in the 1970s and very early 1980s, the magazine seemed to embrace a philosophy of real self-reliance, and seemed to advocate that people acquire their land and get out of debt ASAP. That way, the sooner you could be independent and at less risk of 'losing the farm'. But as the '80s wore on, there was a broader sort of sophisticated consumerist ideas that got mixed in. The magazine began to reflect the "manage your debt" "borrow & have" philosophy that went with the Reagan-Thatcher-Mulroney overall economic vision.

In other words, a mortgage was okay, because it stretched out your payment for your land and allowed you to also buy (on credit?) a lot of luxuries in the meantime. This newer philosophy seemed to suit the twenty-year or so period from 1980 on.

And I think that philosophy has more or less prevailed (at least in that particular magazine) since then.

But now I'm wondering if attitudes may change again, and if the former more cautious approach ('household conservatism') might re-emerge. Any thoughts?

Hey George I am a fourth generation beekeeper. I never knew my great Grandfather but I grew up knowing my Granddaddy. He housed his bees in what he called bee gums (hollowed out sweet gum trees). I remembered when my dad ordered hives and frames from Sears my Granddaddy shook his head. He asked why would you spend good money on something that you can go get from the woods for free? He called it "robbing the bees". Dad says "harvesting honey". I call it "getting rent". I still have a few hives but it is a constant struggle with the mites and beetles. We get enough each year to supply the family and sell about 15 to 20 gallons. I keep it up more for tradition than anything else. I was thinking about throwing in the towel when my nephew started showing some interest. Maybe a fifth generation? Some people are going back to the old way of doing things. I can't go back to the old way of beekeeping. In Florida it is illegal to keep bees in anything other than standard hives.

Well Mitch, in light of all the disease problems, I can understand the law about using standard hives. On the other hand I'm mighty happy when I hear of feral bee populations beginning to come back again, and they don't have standard hives!

We've been here in Oklahoma for over three years now, and I've had bees here for two seasons. So far I haven't made a harvest. But then, I had to build up to a respectable amount of hive materials in order to do the proper manipulations, and on time. Perhaps in 2009....

I started with bees back in the 70s, during the sugar crisis. There were some years when I didn't have bees, like when I was in school or for a couple years while in Mexico. But even in Mexico, I had bees most of the time. I ended up learning to work with/around the Africanized bees!!! Returning to the USA in 2001, and picking up another hive or two in 2002, I was amazed anew with how docile they were.

Beekeeping is truly a matter of great skill and learning, at least if one wants to make a go of it. It's also something you're not about to learn just from books. One needs a mentor. So, hopefully your nephew will decide to go for it! So many things a homesteader would like to know, in order to provide for the family's needs, require the passing on of knowledge and skill (culture). I consider it an important service, to be available for those who would learn, whether it be beekeeping, gardening, animal husbandry or whatever. Just this morning I was showing someone how to sharpen a knife.

My time is limited and I've been tempted to drop the bees. Yet interestingly, all three of our children (now grown) and my wife all urge me not to stop. It's great when one's family has such a positive opinion about an area of interest. Who knows, perhaps I can someday help one of my kids (or grand kids) start up their own hives?!

George

I've been thinking of goats as well as cows... husband is reluctant. If the price of milk gets any higher here it will be a no-brainer.
I've just recently started reading the Mother Earth News. I find some good articles in it but there is still a fair amount of "consumerism" and quite a bit of advertising.
They have a great website though, where you can access much of the old magazines information.

mxbarbie, you wrote: "I've just recently started reading the Mother Earth News. I find some good articles in it but there is still a fair amount of "consumerism" and quite a bit of advertising. They have a great website though, where you can access much of the old magazines information."

I was just mentioning that magazine because I thought maybe it reflected a shift in attitudes over the last 35 years.

The Mother Earth News may have some good articles but I'm not sure how important it is. I know that magazines in general don't have much bearing on how I live or plan my life.

MxBarbie,

Since you have only .89 acres I'd recommend that you look first at a goat, preferably two, since they are such social animals. A cow is going to need more pasture, and if you don't have it or a really cheap source of hay, will cost you more.

Actually, if I had that size of a piece of land, and wanted to produce meat, I'd seriously consider rabbits. They should be properly caged and sheltered from wind and rain. But it is absolutely amazing how much one can produce, in a little space, using rabbits. One should start small and work up, as they learn the animal. Years ago I headed up a rabbitry program, for a small private school in Mexico. We had about a dozen does and two bucks and we produced A LOT of meat! We grew our own feed, which made things very economical.

George

Islandmanmitch (way up above, in this thread) said he knows the economy hasn't hit bottom but hopes it's close. Yes many feel this way.

Last night, we had a party here attended by about 30 friends who have been on the land anywhere from 35 years to maybe just three years. Everyone had a good time at the party, but all seemed aware that we might have to take both our homsesteading and our community-reliance more seriously in the months (and possibly years) ahead.

No one seemed to feel too certain of which "model" of the current reality to take most seriously: is it like the recession of the late 80s? Is it like the beginning of the Japanese financial collapse of the late '90s? Is it the beginning of something like the Great Depression?

On this topic, the mood was both sober and self-confident at the same time.

I'm not currently a homesteader--at all. Though the economy and events like 9-11 make me think that you guys are the smart ones. Being so dependent on stores full of food makes us vulnerable. I've been learning to cook and bake from scratch and freeze ahead meals. I'm also stocking up on canned goods and grains (not too much, but a month or so's worth) as they are on sale. I'm also planning on growing more food in my yard this year. Last year I grew a few strawberries and plenty of tomatoes. This year I'll add more and freeze/can.

Right now we live in a lovely neighborhood near a small lake and within walking distance of our children's elementary school. DH and I have a plan to buy a house on some acreage in about 5 years. At that point the kids will be older and done with the neighborhood school. DH wants the land so he can build a large pole barn for his classic cars, tools, parts, etc . . . I want to garden and get chickens. I do work full time and will continue to do so, as I'll be rewarded with a great pension when I retire in 17 years. I do have summers off, since I am a teacher, so I have some time to work the garden, but am busy during the fall, so I don't want too much to handle!

So, yes, the financial shake up does make me want to homestead!

Miscindy, sounds like you are doing well and have a great plan. Learning to live frugally and make things from scratch, as well as canning, are all great skills. Also, though we may not think of it, mechanics is a great skill for a homesteader.

George

Anybody have further thoughts on the topic, at this point?

Well Joel, we've actually moved our plans up a bit. We've put an offer on 10 acres of land we're waiting to hear back on. The land is in a very secluded area, surrounded by state land. The front 7 acres are clear grass lands, but the back is partially wooded. If all goes well, we'll be cleaning up the land and planting some trees, including fruit trees this summer. Our plan is to build a home in about 4-5 years, just about when those fruit trees are ready! Then comes the garden, the chickens . . . Also, there's a creek just down the road a short ways . . . good for fishing! If things get rough and we lose a job, the land across the street is open for hunting and I've heard it's filled with deer and turkey, among other things.

In preparation for purchasing the land, we've been living frugally (as compared to our previous ways), but are now buckling down quite a bit more. Eating out or ordering pizza only once on the weekend is a change for us. We normally ate home-cooked meals during the week, but usually out for at least 2 lunches if not a pizza dinner on the weekends. No more of that crazy spending!

I took a class and have been reading up on soap-making and hope to try it soon. I already can sew. I'm also getting into natural/inexpensive cleaners such as baking soda and vinegar for around the home.

I hope the purchase agreement goes through. We made an offer on this land last month and they counter-offered. We declined at that point, but our new offer is what they counter-offered last time, so we feel like it should go through. However, the couple that owns the land is fighting and the realtor said they are "not being very nice."

Well, we have a closing date set of April 8! We're pretty excited! We'll soon be the proud owners of 10.45 acres--partially cleared, partially wooded! I've been reading books on food preservation and preparing for emergencies such as power outages, etc . . . I've learned to make yogurt-yummy! I'm in the researching process of making soap. All these things are to help prepare us in case we ever have a time of need--loss of a job, loss of electricity for a period of time etc . . . We're planning some sort of wood-burner to use a back-up heat when we build the new home.

It's interesting... These days a bunch of cities are allowing and/or promoting certain aspects of homesteading within city limits. Such as the raising of chickens. Vancouver, BC (Canada) is doing so. And I heard that New York city (and some other northeastern U.S. cities) have been doing so recently.

Personally, I've always felt good about having a paid-off piece of land with gardens, etc developed. I've never been an alarmist or a conspiracy theorist or hadcore "survivalist," but I've always had an inkling that the economy could tank. Or should I say "tank again," somewhat like the 1930s. Not to say that I'm convinced it will be as bad or as long as the difficulties of the '30s.

Anyways, it seems that at least some people in the cities will be taking community or backyard gardens, the raising chickens, and so on quite seriously for a while.

Hi
Interesting topic afraid of getting too political but here goes .lol. Mention the "great depression" which always comes up as both a positive and negative of both communism and capitalism. Would assume international communism is dead while capitalism is obviously in serious trouble.. But see no replacemeent for either on the horizon.?? Past economic problems have invaribly led to war . More severe the problem the bigger the war. If the GD was the biggest example of capitalisms failure, to be replaced by national socialism,communism which were spectacular failures within there own right
Where does internationalism go from here ??
Anybody see a "bigger " idea emerging from the present economic problems??
Hopefully didn't start a political furor . The world is obviosly undergoing very profound and deep changes down to the very basic idea of what life is all about.
The 21st century will be as tumultuous as the 20th but too soon to see what ideas are winning??? gary

Gary wrote: "The world is obviosly undergoing very profound and deep changes down to the very basic idea of what life is all about. The 21st century will be as tumultuous as the 20th but too soon to see what ideas are winning???"

Yes, it would seem so, Gary.

I have been interested in numerous fresh and alternative economic perspectives over the years, but since these are sweeping, "macro" notions... well, way to early to determine which if any of them will be espoused by large proportions of people.

But in terms of how I live my life in my community, I tend to promote the idea of voluntary cooperation amongst households as a better option than isolation, competition, distrust and these sorts of things.

National socialism and socialism are very different things. National socialism is Nazis.

We will probably continue our slow list towards quasisocialism in the western europan model.

To all: My zone is thusly listed because I'm right on the border between two zones and need to figure out precisely how the Ohio river and the weather pattern affectations will affect my growing here.

Anyway...

I grew up on a fairly large farm raising beef, but once I left home my father has sold off nearly everything, maintaining only trash land which he recently decided to try to sell. I live too far away to make owning it practical (although I may come to regret this) and my dad is too weird to deal with.

However, about 1.5 years ago I purchased 10 acres outside Corydon, IN. My home is a tad close to the road for my liking, but we do what we have to.

I have great interest in turning the front 2 or 3 acres into an idyllic homestead, functional, practical AND as pretty as I can make it (a rough homestead has its own charm as far as I'm concerned), but I'm going to have to figure out the best layouts AND come up with the know-how to make the most of what I've got.

My long-range plans include:
- A small orchard (10-20 different trees)
- Some berry trellises (25-30 plants)
- A small grape area (probably 12-15 plants)
- Chicken coop, pheasant coop
- A pretty hefty garden plot for vegetables
- Strawberry bed kept separately
- Garden plot for melon and pumpkin patch
- Wood shed
- Finnish sauna (used to heat pole barn and greenhouse)
- Greenhouse
... and eventually a milk cow (I love fresh milk) and a moody pony.

I also have ideas for an outdoor kitchen area for both summer cooking and canning times, to avoid heating the whole darned house, and I'm trying to come up with ideas for a live-in storm shelter, an underground pantry-cum-root cellar and the most elusive critter of all, the mythical underground, renewable resource freezer (probably based on old icehouse designs).

Okay, before anyone tells me, that last one will probably REMAIN a myth, I know.

I'm browsing this site for ideas and input on layouts, as well as other knowledge on various topics.

Hope to make some new acquaintances, too!

Glad to see you've joined the discussion here, urban sasquatch. And since this is a thread about homesteading in relation to the economic downturn that is currently affecting the Americas, Western Europe, and some other parts of the world, I'd ask you how your plans are relevant to this overall situation? Are you in a position to work toward your vision? Is working toward your vision for your homestead currently helping you to actualize a decent life? Etc.

I think things will have to get much worse before a huge flood of people start changing plans and trying to live off the land. I think the only people considering it are people that already had it in their plans. With interest rates at record lows, now is the time to buy land but many people can't qualify for loans so borrowing money to purchase or build is out of reach for many. I still say that if things get worse we will see the law enforcers too busy dealing with real crime to be bothered writing tickets for backyard chickens and front yard vegetable gardens. Around here during our recent extreme droughts when water was rationed the law basically said that anyone caught watering a backyard food garden would NOT face prosecution since it was obvious they needed the garden to eat - hurray for common sense!

I have found and bought a small acreage in the big city! It will take the rest of the summer to renovate the old farm house and move in but I look forward to the project. How this all fits into my long range homesteading plans is that the new place is just a few miles down the street from the large state run farmer's market which is growing bigger and bigger each year. No matter what type of crops I grow I will have a nearby market to sell at to supplement my retirement income. I'm not there yet, not even close, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

We are buying a 30 acre farm in southwest Wisconsin. We have been thinking about it for some time because of the economy, as "armageddon insurance", so when we were visiting the University of Wisconsin with our daughter we decided to look at a few farms. We fell in love with the first one we saw. It was built in the 1890s and has a river running through it. Besides the farmhouse, it has a barn, two chicken coops, pole shed, shop, garden shed, turkey pen, and a rundown summer kitchen which I hope to restore. There is a big organic garden, asparagus beds, raspberry and blueberry bushes and fruit trees. Its such an enchanting setting, it felt like we were in a storybook when we first saw it.

We would love to dive right into the farm life and have so many ideas for improvements, but are stuck in the Chicago suburbs for another year while our daughter finishes high school. So we will be educating ourselves and spending as much time as we can there until we're ready to move. The thing that scares us most is that the area is pretty remote, with the nearest big town being over an hour away. What we like is that it is already a working farm which we can add to as we wish.