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Pumpkins, Squash & Gourds

Another cross pollination question

16 years ago

I'm planning on growing Waltham Butternuts, Adazapari and Sweet Dumpling squashes this year. I wanted to save the seeds for the 2009 growing season and for trading. Will those squashes cross pollinate? If I hand pollinate, will the seeds remain pure?

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Comments (7)

farmerdilla
16 years ago
The Waltham (C. moschata) and the Sweet Dumpling ( C. pepo) do not as a general rule cross. I am not familiar with the Adazapari. At any rate if you bag the blossom ( females) and hand polinate you can alleviate all worries. Be aware the the Sweet Dumpling will readily cross pollinate with any C. pepo which includes most of the summer squash, Halloween type pumpkins and the small decorative gourds)
booberry85
Original Author
16 years ago
I was given the seeds for the adapazari squash and thought I'd try it. Here's all the info I was given on it.

Each Squash has about 600-800 seeds. As for maturity I'm not certain. We plant in late April/early May and harvest them before the first frost in November. We pick them and put them in a dry dark room until we need them. I'm the Pie Maker in the family and this Squash makes wonderful Pies. I will never eat a Pumpkin Pie as long as I have this Squash. This Squash has an extremely tough Skin/rind, even the Raccoons give up when trying to open it. We use a hand saw to open it by sawing between the ridges. A knife doesn't work safely. The flesh inside is firm and sweet. This is a large plant and will usually produce one large as a couple small Squash per plant. The the smaller squash are used for soups.

Here is a link that might be useful: Picture of adapazari squash
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I've grown c. pepo and c. moschata side by side for over 25 years with not a single cross occurring. What I've understood is that the two can be cross, but only under forced conditions in which a breeder eliminates the possibility of same species pollination, forcing the plants to accept the cross or produce no seed at all. So for practical purposes, a home gardener can assume that c. pepo and c. moschata will not cross. C. moschata and c. maxima apparently cross more readily. Yet, when I spoke with Glenn Drowns about it, a couple of years ago, he indicated that this kind of cross is usually associated with certain abnormal conditions. It is not the norm. At any rate MO_girl's plan should work. She should be able to save seed and it is highly unlikely that she will get a cross. What she is describing is a planting scheme that has been followed by quite a few seed savers, for many years; which except in very rare circumstances works quite well. George Tahlequah, OK
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Glenda, I have always thought that was true in terms of cross-pollinated beans, and I still believe it is true. What I am wondering, since the flowers look the same, is if you have a spontaneous mutation or sport? We need George's brain here to help figure this out! I got out my copy of Suzanne Ashworth's book, "Seed to Seed", to seach for an answer and I came across this statement: "The distinctive seed coat patterns and the shapes of various Leguminosae seeds are sometimes used in attempts to prove the presence or absence of crossing. Leguminosae species also possess a wide variety of genetic characteristics that are not visible in their seeds, so statements about seed purity based solely on seed coat characteristics are not valid." So, Glenda, what does that statement mean to you? I think she is saying that sometimes bean seeds can show genetic variations (in their children, LOL) that are not apparent by looking at their seeds? Yet, her very next statement is "Changes in seed coat color are an indication of crossed seed". So, does she mean that your white seeds might look 'normal' but then grow out differently than what you expected (as they did) and then could produce seeds with differnt seed coat colors, which is clearly an indication of crossed seed? The plot thickens. In the next paragraph she says "even if crossing has occurred that is capable of showing up visably, the crossed seeds that are harvested will look exactly like the parent seed.....Evidence of crossing only becomes visably apparent when another generation is grown out from those crossed seeds, first appearing as variation within the population of plants and then in the seeds that are harvested." Based on those statements, I'd say your seed had to have been crossed by the seed wholesaler who supplied the seed to the retailer from whom you purchased the seed. Your seeds look normal, but are hiding the cross inside their seemingly normal little white coated selves. Then, when you harvest their 'children', you can get the white and the brown beans, and that is your clue that your original seed stock was crossed, even though it looked normal. Suzanne Ashworth goes on to make the point that all the batch of seed you started with/planted this year must be considered crossed then, since some of the white seeds you originally planted a few months ago are producing brown seeded beans. She suggests that if seed purity is important to you, then don't plant any remaining seed from your original batch, or from seed harvested this year, because all has the potential to be crossed. In one of the prior posts, you said you like the brown-seeded beans. If that is the case and you have seed left over from your original planting, you have nothing to lose by planting it again because you may get more of the brown seeded beans you like. If you save brown seeds this year, I think they could give you either brown or white seeded beans because a cross has already occurred and, with any cross, you don't know what you'll get but you do know you're likely to get some white-seeded beans and some brown-seeded beans because that's what you got this year. So, I think you have a cross, unless George can figure out if it might a sport or mutation (I don't know how one figures that out). But, I don't think the cross occurred this year in your garden. I think it occurred wherever your bean seed stock was commercially produced. No other scenario makes sense to me. Dawn
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Macmex
16 years ago
Adapazari is a c. maxima. With only very rare exception a c. maxima will not cross with either a c. pepo or a c. moschata. You should be good. Just be sure you don't have any neighbors growing just about ANY other squash. If they are, you surely need to hand pollinate.

By the way. Don't be afraid of hand pollination. It's not hard. Drop me an e-mail and I can send you an illustrated guide I did on it.

George
Tahlequah, OK
simplicitygardens
16 years ago
George (macmex) I'd really like to have your illustrated guide as well. Planning a big ol' pumpkin patch with many varieiies and I'd originally thought not to bother with saving seed, but it just doesn't make sense not to. So how do I get in touch with you? I also have questions on spacing my pumpkins/squash. Any body out there have suggestions? Particularly the cinderella type pumpkins.Started a whole bunch from some seed I'd been hanging onto for a couple years. They all sprouted and will be ready to go into the ground soon. Many thanks!
booberry85
Original Author
16 years ago
I'm the only nut that gardens in my area, so I don't have to worry about my neighbors. I only have neighbors on two sides of me. My closest neighbor is 150 feet away from my garden, but doesn't garden. The next closest neighbors are about 500 feet away, but again don't garden. There is a 5 acre empty lot to the north of me (woods) and woods and farmers fields (corn) to the east of me.

Occassionally, I wind up having to use Rotenone or Sevin on squashes and cucumbers because of Cucumber beetles. I learned how to hand pollinate after having used them. I try and avoid using both pesticides but two years ago I had plague of the nasty buggers. Last year I didn't have any.
fliptx
16 years ago
Last week, a female flower on my butternut plant opened without any male butternut flowers to pollinate her. So on a whim I took a male zucchini flower and poked it around the butternut flower. I didn't expect it to work, but the fruit is about 4 inches long now. It's possible that some helpful bee found its way from another C. moschata somewhere in the neighborhood, but out of curiosity I'll save the seeds to see what, if anything, comes from them next year.
weirdtrev
16 years ago
Well I believe that C. pepo and C. moschata can cross, but others do not. There was another thread about cross pollination where we discussed C. pepo and C. moschata crosses. It could have been another C. moschata, but I think the zucchini is the more likely culprit.

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