Some but not all of my Picea omorika cultivars suffered some damage from the drought and high temps this last summer. I lost one 'Pendula' and others suffered more then normal needle cast. All established and in good health.

In my opinion not as durable as Picea abies or pungens.

Dave

I still think Nordmann fir can be a viable option. Hotter than heck in Nashville, Tennessee this summer and very dry in June. Many days over 100F. Then July was hot, wet and humid. This guy has been in the ground for 5 years now and is doing great.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:851514}}

I can't see it and I really want to!

I've noticed that a lot of christmas tree farms around here (mind you, there aren't that many) are beginning to plant Canaan fir (Abies balsamea var. phanerolepis). I wonder if this is the most heat-tolerant of the balsam group? We have problems with root rot on frasers around here, and it's a bit too warm for Balsam. We are USDA zone 5 and AHS heat zone 5.

I've constantly been looking for a more heat tolerant eastern fir, wondering if there really is significant differences in geographic races. Would a balsam fir from Michigan or Wisconsin do better in Indiana than one from Nova Scotia? Provenance is something I've always been intrigued by. I grow a lot of Northern trees that wouldn't normally be found around here (Many are found in far Northern Indiana), often with success. I've found that, planted as a seedling, anyways, once a tree reaches head height, I consider it completely established. I've also noticed that trees from more Northern climes establish better and have a better chance of success if planted as a young seedling or even started from seed here. Maybe I'm crazy for thinking like that!

I've planted some Canaan fir seedlings this spring - Only 1 took. It's been a rough year that way... However, I plan to try more next year!

Actually it's been a rough year all around. We are drought-free now - 1 inch below normal. (Actually, we made that up last night). We've had 12 inches of rain since August 1st! That's how our climate goes, though - Makes it seem worthwhile watering all those plants for three months. They're fine, now!

Addressing Spruce's comments that where a tree grows natively is not always a reliable sign for where it will grow...balsam fir is a common "weed tree" just 50 miles north of where I live. In ditches, logging ruts, pretty much anywhere, it comes up thickly. Here in the woods, it is never found. Yet I see trees of this species, having undoubtedly been dug "up north", brought back and planted in yards, all with no difficulty. My take is that while conditions are suitable here for the species, in a forest setting, it gets outcompeted by other trees relentlessly, such that it is simply not a component. So a tree planted in a yard, where competitive factors are not in play, will do fine. Not directly a soils/climate thing, in this case.

+oM

Since I was quoted again on this thread like I was one other time on this same subject let me qualify my comment I made in that thread.

I said I had a couple of them in my gardens but one had fried and one was doing well in a mostly shaded setting. I went on to say I see a lot of people with these that push more lime green rather than the cream color that was being shown in that thread. But I never said they were a good plant for this climate. Those varietals like many other conifers sold in our nurseries and planted all over the city don't survive long here....especially in the current heat cycle climate we're in the last couple of years.

Eventually my second 'Golden Spreader' also fried. As a varietal I would not try and grow them here even though they are seen in many nurseries. If you do they need to be set up under a drip irrigation system for the summer months and at least in a well dappled shade area if not full shade to survive here.

mark

THE MOST HEAT TOLERANT FIR IS BY MY LONG EXPERIENCE
ABIES PINSAPO. THIS IS FOR DRY HEAT.
IT CAN HANDLE TEMPS IN THE 100 - 105 RANGE WITH OCCASIONAL 110 FOR MONTHS AND STILL LOOK GREAT.
MOST OTHER FIRS THAT ARE CLAIMED TO HANDLE HIGH HEAT NEED HUMUDITY TO SUVIVE LONG TERM.
I HAVE TRIED MANY DIFFERENT FIRS THIS IS THE ONLY ONE THAT WILL LOOK HEALTHY AFTER A FEW YEARS.
IT MUST BE ON ITS OWN ROOTS, GRAFTED IT WILL GET SICK.

Arawa, have you tried Abies cephalonica?? It should well in your zone and it looks to me that it is fa more drought tolerant. Today I saw one year old seedlings, very healthy that saw rain once in May, once in early September and nothing more. And they were at 3000 ft altitude, just over Athens which is zone 9 and barely touching zone 8b...

If you haven't you should try it. In 2 years I'll be able to send out some of my seedlings to anyone interested. Or in few days, fresh seeds worldwide.

Best regards,
Fotis

Around here (Zone 5), I need a fir that can withstand the occasional heat spell. We tied some weather records - 7 days over 100, one day at 105. Mind you, we usually only have a week or two of 90s, broken by stretches of cooler 80s. And usually, the warmer it is, the more rain we get. This year has been anomalous from the norm. (understatement of the year)

I know this is an old thread but has anyone come up with a good guideline or is it really just too much of hit and miss? What # category have you found to be the most heat tolerant? I live in the high plains. 3000' alt., dry heat. Summers get hot, but nights tend to cool down nicely. We may have 100 to 105 for weeks in summer but our nights will cool down to less than 70 most of the time with some nights getting to low 60's or even upper 50's in late spring or early fall. I think this does tend to help plants cope a little bit. All of my plants are on a drip system so I really do control the moisture to them. Does anyone have any suggestions at all as to what they have tried? I have grown Abies koreana Cis for 2 years now and it looks great. I have had Abies koreana Green Carpet for a year and same there. My Abies nordmanniana âÂÂGolden Spreaderâ is a year and a half and is thriving so far. My nordmanniana Berlin struggled some as the new growth burned off but I had it in a bad place and did not get enough water to it as it was new. We'll see how this summer goes. I have had Abies lasiocarpa var arizonica âÂÂCompactaâ for a year now and it is getting ready to bud out. What a nice blue color.

Where exactly are you located?? It's not only heat what ends up killing firs....

Western KS high plains.

You have a distinct advantage indeed living up in altitude and having cool nights. And conifers like soil that is on the moist side versus the dry side. There you have a given advantage too with your irrigation.

On their own roots you should try:
Abies firma
Abies nordmanniana
Abies bornmuelleriana (a sub-species of nordmanniana)
Abies homolepis
Abies holophylla
and I believe that Abies x phanerolepis is worth a shot.

And for other firs you wish to grow you will have to find growers that know their understocks. You should go with the flow of growers using Abies firma as rootstocks or find someone growing on Nordmann.

I was just reading about this, this morning. 'Landscaping with Conifers and Ginkgo For the Southeast'.
ISBN: 9780813042480

The authors talk about siting firs to keep them out of the blazing afternoon sun. This in conjunction with water and species-selection will take you a long way.

Dax

Thanks. Sounds great but trying to find some of those seems to be difficult. I am looking for very small dwarf plants or even miniatures as my areas that I have are not big but I love to collect with well over 100 varieties to this point.

Well, I'd recommend the obvious... you need to buddy up with a grafter. Look into Gee Farms & Western Evergreen and Coenosium Gardens. Each Fall early on Bob Fincham (Coenosium) takes special requests.

As of recently I've heard that Jason at Western Evergreen has something like an eight plant minimum for requests of (1) thing. That's an estimated guess though. You'd have to contact him to learn the real situation.

Gary Gee custom grafts but I don't know his policy.

Bob has always been easy to work with. It's been a few three years since I asked him for custom grafting, however...

Just trying to help you. I don't know what else to say.

Dax

Thanks. I didn't know that was an option. I guess I learn something everyday on here. I will also keep looking. I have found some but just not many.

Ingeborgdot, definitely try Mediterranean firs (Abies cephalonica, Abies cilicica, Abis pinsapo, Abies nebrodensis - if you can find seeds! -, Abies tazaotana, Abies numidica.

FW Schumacher and Sheffields are good vendors for seeds.

Here's a scientific comparison of the temperature and precipitation of the native habitats of Mediterranean firs:

http://utenvironment.org/upload_cec_files/abies_drought_comparison.pdf

Abies concolor should do even better than Abies lasiocarpa var. arizonica, since they're native to the same area but at lower elevation.

Here is a link that might be useful: Temperature and Precipitation comparison of the native habitats of Mediterranean firs

You need to be careful with A. firma rootstock in alkaline soil. A. nordmanniana does much better for me... the problem would be finding plants grafted onto A. nordmanniana.

bluecone, very interesting article!!!

osprey

Wow. I haven't been on here for so long. I need to get back to the forum. I am in Nashville, TN USA. Here is a picture of my Nordmanniana grown from a 1 gal from Forest Farm. Sorry the pic is sideways! It has been in the ground for probably 7 years now. It has seen every summer Nashville could throw at it including 110F dry heat and 95F with unbearable humidity. I have not watered it a lot. Mostly just when we have an extended drought for a couple weeks I will give it a good drink. Side note as far as spruces, Norway, Colorado do fine, I also have a Chinese spruce that has done well. I would have to look it up to see what it was but it looks like Colorado but not quite as blue. Oriental spruce does well and is beautiful but grows slow. Get Serbian spruce grafted on Norway and they do better IMO. Serbian on its own roots has died for me while grafted varieties did fine. I can only assume they were grafted to Norway. Abies koreana I've killed but I have seen a few do OK around town. Must be grafted to firma.

Has anyone tried A. homolepis in the Mid Atlantic? Seems similar to firma, hollophylla, etc.

Hair, no, but got a A holophylla and A nordmanniana last spring. Holophylla looks good (buds sprouting) -- nordmanniana might not make it.

midtn, nice Nordmann. I grew up at a house w/a 90 ft Nordmann. It was the only one I ever saw of any size other than in the DC arboretum (later I saw a few in the Va arb).

During the hottest, driest summer (with lawns browned-out), it would get a bit of spider-mite infestation low down, but nothing serious.

Beng, Nordmann pushes late, so you might be OK.

I have some hollophylla I am starting from seed. They are just 1" sprouts with cotyledon leaves so far, but a little bud is forming in the center of a few.

I am a new grower if c8nifers. I am trying a golden spreader here in NoVa Washington DC suburbs and two years in it looks good. It is in morning early afternoon sun with the shade in the late afternoon. Can anyone recommend a concolor? I have had difficulty with koreana though a friend nearby has had success with them. Thank you

My Blue Cloak Concolor Fir has been doing well since I planted it 4 years ago. It's located in a partially shaded location. A couple of my other firs that are doing well include the Abies Koreana Aurea but it only grows a few inches a year. Also my Silberlocke has been doing well. My Golden Spreader was doing well for 3 years but now it's struggling. Although It could be because it's about 50 ft from a Black Walnut tree.

I know that we are talking about Firs, but I am in zone 8a,7b South Carolina & use Canadian Hemlock.

As has been posted before, any fir cultivar (i.e., grafted fir) should be grafted on an east coast tolerant root stock, if planted south of about Philadelphia. My firma-grafted Abies procera, for example, looks great...I know that species on its own roots would be dead here. Alas, at least 3 of the nurseries known for doing these kind of grafts are gone now. So they are getting harder to find and the few remaining ones are charging more for them.

If deacon has one in the DC area grafted onto, say "Canaan Fir", no telling if it will last 10 years or if root rot will take it out the next time we get hurricane levels of rainfall. The only non-firma rootstock that would be ok in the DC area, used by some nurseries 'by accident' instead of intentionally to prevent root rot, is Nordmann fir. But for the most part western nurseries graft onto western species and northern tier nurseries graft onto northern tier (native) species.

The one I have are 10 years old & doing fine.

I know that we are talking about Firs, but I am in zone 8a,7b South Carolina & use Canadian Hemlock.

...

The one I have are 10 years old & doing fine.

What are you talking about? We aren't mind readers. This was a thread about firs, genus Abies, and you said you had a native hemlock tree in South Carolina. There would be nothing remarkable about that.

It is remarkable that the hemlock are maintenance free & the firs die in the first year in Midland of South Carolina. But go on & talk down to me, I was talking to any one who is to far South to have firs, which everyone knows is Abies.

That Hemlocks are Tsuga.

David. It has been difficult to ascertain root stock from my conifer supplier in Maryland. I was told the Golden spreader is grafted into Nordmann fir and have to accept that fact. Can you recommend any growers in the area offering abies grafted onto root stock appropriate to my area in DC? I agree with the problem of western suppliers grafting onto western species. Iseli is ubiquitous it seems. I hope to find some good material at upcoming ACS in Raleigh. Can you recommend a favorite source? Thank you.

"It is remarkable that the hemlock are maintenance free"

No it isn't, because they're native to the Piedmont of the eastern US! There are huge native ones a short drive from me, in northeastern MD, in fact. Where summers are plenty steamy!

"the firs die in the first year in Midland of South Carolina"

because none of them are native to the lowlands of the eastern US! RTFT...there are some non-native ones like Abies firma that can grow in the low elevations of the southeast. Other species can be grafted onto firma.

I'm not 'taking down' to you, I'm trying to prevent this thread from descending into chaos. In a thread about tomato diseases, there's really no need for someone to come along and say "well, eggplants grow just fine for me!"

David. It has been difficult to ascertain root stock from my conifer
supplier in Maryland. I was told the Golden spreader is grafted into
Nordmann fir and have to accept that fact.

Well, that's actually very good news! We had some crazy summer weather recently...very wet at times...various other rootstocks would have been killed. It's believable to me it was on Nordmann. I'd say you lucked out.

I bought my A. firma grafted fir at Conifer Kingdom. There was a guy in central NC making those grafts, but he ignored my emails a couple years ago, the website appeared to be very 'dormant' so I deleted the bookmark. (I sometimes think people pay for like, 3 years of hosting, and then close their business or whatnot) There was a nursery doing it in Atlanta but someone here posted that - oh what was it, that the owner passed away? So I assumed they are closing.

"but someone here posted that"

You called?

Bruce Appeldorn at Appeldorn Nursery in North Carolina grafts onto firma. He's got a tremendous operation there. It's semi-close to Charlotte. The operations of Maple Ridge Nursery in Atlanta were taken over by the wife of the former owner. I am happy to report that she continues to graft firs on to firma, although if you're looking for anything other than Abies koreana there, you'll likely be out of luck. Both nurseries aren't the best about updating their websites. Call them if you want current inventory.

All that aside, IMHO, Conifer Kingdom remains the single best source of firma-grafted firs around.

I have tried to find A. pinsapo and A. numidica in their ungrafted form but can't seem to locate any for sale. If anyone knows of a source for mail order, please let me know. The area I want to plant them would be best suited to their native rootstock (too alkaline for A. firma I think)

The last place to regularly carry a large selection of fir seedlings for the general public (not forestry or Xmas tree production) was Forestfarm. Their selection isn't as vast as it used to be. Unfortunately it just seems like there's a limited market for such items. Most conifers collections seem to focus on grafted cultivars. But those aren't super rare and I expect you will eventually be able to source them. https://plantinfo.umn.edu/search/plants?search=abies

Your best bet would be to try to grow these from seed. Abies pinsapo seed is relatively cheap and abundant, while Abies numidica seed is hard to find and expensive.

WHILE THIS THREAD IS BUMPED...does anyone know if there is a nursery grafting Chamaecyparis lawsoniana cultivars onto one of the Asian Chamaecyparis, or even C. thyoides ? As we know, the so-called 'disease resistant rootstocks' are just other cultivars of Lawson cypress! They might be disease resistant in the PNW, but not on the east coast.

Seems to be a lot of thread bumping going on recently...curious.

Whatever happened to Treehaven in upstate NY? He had quite a few rare fir seedlings years ago. that's where I got them for my ill-fated experiments showing almost no western firs survive at least in this particularly humid corner of the Mid-Atlantic. OTOH, Abies alba and A. nordmanniana are fine. I am pretty sure he had both of those. I am actually trying to find a home for a surplus A. alba seedling. (not free before you ask)

In Central Indiana, Canaan Fir continues to be the strongest grower of the firs. Lost a single fraser fir due to phytophthora last year - Very wet year.

this grove has a few pin cherries I was using for shade early on, will probably remove them this year to make space for the firs.

can't vouch for the Mid-Atlantic, but this is hands down the best true fir for the midwest!

@davidrt28 (zone 7) What are Rushford groupings?

Hey, I'm down south in Louisiana and wondering if the Sitka Spruce (Picea Sitchensis) can be grown here, I heard that it grows in zone 9 and handles humidity and heat very well but I need to confirm if it can really grow in heat?

I've got one of the Sitka spruce cultivars which has survived for many years, although it hasn't grown very much. I'm skeptical that the species is a very good choice, but I'm not aware of anyone which has published a report on it. Tom Cox does not mention it in his book on the best conifers for the Southeast (and there are a fair number of spruce species in the book).

I've heard good things about the Turkish fir (Abies bornmuelleriana) and I was thinking about growing it in the future here in the southeast, I heard that it is like a substitute for the Nordmann fir and that it has amazing heat tolerance and good drought tolerance. That raises all of the good ideas for me, it actually sounds perfect, I also wanted to grow The West Himalayan Fir (Abies Pindrow) because of its pretty blue cones and its amazing tall slender growth, it also can withstand the heat very well which is amazing but it grow slow, I don't really mind, but these are some of the trees that I was planning on growing in the future and it sounds so far so good to me!

I also had another question to ask, is the noble fir (Abies Nobilis) on the list of trees for the southeast because I was looking foward to grow that aswell! Please send feedback

The hottest it can get here is about 84F but it rains a lot here, and the temperature always goes down to the low 70's all the time, it feels room temperature outside a lot so I don't think I live in the deep south which I'm glad, last winter dropped down to 29F which is a good thing for me planning on growing a fir. As long as the temperature drops down it can adapt. I've seen someone grow a blue spruce at there nursery here in Louisiana and it looked like it was thriving, I didn't see a single brown needle, it was a small sapling and it was really healthy! I'll take my chances with the Nordmann Fir since by the looks of it, its the main fir everybodies talking about growing in the south!

Article about Manchurian fir says it's quite heat tolerant for a fir. But they are very hard to find -- mine came from Forestfarm, but their selections nowadays are not so great as earlier.

https://arboretum.harvard.edu/stories/manchurian-fir-abies-holophylla/

Beng, nice article. Thanks. I'd say A. holophylla can indeed take the heat, but down here it really should be on a rootstock that is more adaptable. Mine is doing okay on A. firma (it's in a pot, which might be holding it back). The paper I noted above said that mortality due to Phytophthora is 90% on its own roots.

Thanks, Dean. I hope mine doesn't get root-rot. A hybrid larch not too far away died from what apparently was a root-rot type disease (tho a Japanese larch nearby has been OK for 18 yrs).