Mike, would be very interested to see a photo of the WB on Picea abies Pendula.
Bluespruce

OK - I will have to take some pictures. It may take a few days
I planted this spruce at the entrance to a church about 10 years ago. I have tried without sucess to graft for the last 6 years. My technique is a little rough, so many of the fatalities may be my fault. This year I had a nursery do a few of the grafts and so far two of their grafts and two of my grafts are still living.

if zone appropriate ... why would they need to be protected .. all other things being equal ....

i have had the best luck by simply knocking them out of the pot and sticking them in the ground.. and letting ma nature take care of them.. any way she wants ... those that look really borderline.. will get a rose cone ... if i remember ... in late January ...

do note.. i have sand .... so drainage of the root zone is NOT an issue ....

a local guy big into bonsai .... actually has 4 by 8 foot pits .... 4 x 4 posts with plywood sides ... with lexan tops ... if that's the right name.. the corrugated stuff used for pole barn windows ....

this removes all issues of winter wind.. and reduces winter snow.. and the soil floor keeps humidity high.. and being in the ground.. temperature is moderated all around ... if it snows.. all the better ... any leaves or stuff may feel free to cover it all ...

and there is sufficient air ....

just some ideas ... but not in the greenhouse ...

if it were me .. and i had no other option .... i would just line them along the north side of a building .... to keep black pots out of the sun .. and leave them there for the winter.. if i had no other option ... presuming the bldg was a guttered .. and vermin were not a problem ....

as with all plants.. get them dormant.. and keep them dormant.. and you should be all set ....

good luck

ken

Ken I have done both. Kept some in my greenhouse and planted some outside. I realize the warm greenhouse prevents them from going dormant. But I don't understand the reason why that could be a problem. Actually, I would prefer just to plant all in the ground. It is much easier. These are all hardy plants and the outside should work. Just looking for some other ideas from some of the grafters out there that have done this before with better sucess than I. Thanks for your ideas ------Mike

i would think .. keyword there.. since i have never worked with a greenhouse .... the issue might be ....

full dormancy .... the key to success .. simplified.. get it dormant.. keep it dormant ...

are you in your greenhouse 24/7 for the whole winter ... what happens to your dormant conifers when you have a week of mid 60 degrees .... how does that affect the pots ... do they get up to 70 or 80 degrees.. then freeze back to the 20's at night .... ???? if you have some type of record keeping for the house.. have you ever recorded the effect on or in the pots themselves ...

what happens if, in such circumstances ... the roots actually do come out of dormancy .. and then the following week.. its back down to 20 below .... just how many times can a tree take these wild fluctuations in temps ...

i am known to say ... if it happens once ... most plants can cope and will laugh at it .. second time there will be injury ... and the third time ... they just give up the ghost .... dormancy is no problem ... going in and out of dormancy is a problem ...

outdoors ... a week like this.. isn't going to thaw the roots in mother earth ... it might warm the first inch .... but it will have no impact 3 inches down ....

really .. all your babes need .. IF ANYTHING ... is protection from winter wind... as it can dry out a pot.. and freeze dry the leaves .... and protection from sun on black pots.. that's 2 things ... the house protects from wind.. but can increase the effects of the sun .....

i am just speculating here .... so take it for what it might be worth ...

i guess.. if you have some extras ... try both .. and see which do better ... experimentation is the best way to learn ... as we cant really speculate as to all the variables solely within your control ....

good luck

ken

Ken, I will get some custom grafts this year. When should be the best time to receive them, now or wait until early spring. I'm affraid they won't like my dry winters.... how weak/strong a 1st year graft is?. This is the first time I will get a grafted conifer.

osprey

well ... boy i don't know about z7 .... but i can give some general ideas ....

i quit buying first year grafts.. i bought them when the learning curve was low.. and lost a lot ... but i probably know better now ...

of the 30 grafts i did in Jan 07 .... 15 died before i got them in June.. 2 more died this summer .... the others are going into the nursery .... so odds of failure are always high ...

if a warranty is involved... ask the seller when is the best time to ship .... hopefully someone in the higher zones will advise you better ...

upon receipt ... see how the roots look ... mine are all in 4 inch pots ... and need to go into one gals ...roots are either barely there.. or they are jammed into the pot ... either way.. they need to get out of the pot, in most cases ...

what type of soil for your pots ... we know most conifers prefer high drainage .... i mix one unit of a peat/perlite type medium .. with one unit of wood chips.. bagged stuff is called MINI CHUNKS around here... pieces of bark about the size of your thumbnail ... water the peat mix.. add the wood ... when you water this medium.. it runs out the bottom almost as fast as it goes in the top.. that is drainage ... and that is what conifers like ...

so i would repot ... cutting or unwinding any circular roots ...

i then place them under some pine trees ... for the rest of the summer ... NO DIRECT SUN .. but bright enough ... maybe the north side of a building ... now that winter is coming.. i don't fool with pots in the great white north .. they are either going into the garden .. or into the nursery ....

back to potting. ... weigh one pot in your hand... then water it.. and try to remember the weight difference ... never water a heavy pot ... let them nearly dry between waterings ...

during the 100 degree heat wave plus drought.. i still only water one gals once a week ... conifers just don't like wet feet .. now that it is 60ish and fall ... i may not water again ... but you never know.. i check pots.. i don't do it by the calender ...

if ambient heat is an issue.. consider a load of wood chips.. and put the pots into the mulch .. hiding the black pot entirely .. and water the mulch to add ambient humidity ... and cool the roots ...

if you were to dig a hole on the lot ... experiment with the temps and how they change at one foot.. two feet.. three feet ... even in NM i have to believe that 2 or 3 feet down .. the temps are significantly cooler.. relatively speaking ... that is where you trees are going to put there roots.. try to mimic it ... no tree is going to put roots on top of your driveway ... so don't put your pots on the driveway ...

the faster you ID your variables.. the easier to hit them all .. but the fancier you get.. the harder it becomes ... be the tree ... and you will do fine ...

just keep them out of the blistering sun .. though during winter.. with the decline of the angle of the sun ... it wont hurt as bad as July ...

is there any more specific questions??

ken

Man is this a borderline topic, at best...

A basement is too hot, roots of potted plants in a garage can still become damaged even in zone 5; A bonsai video I have suggests that at 50 Fahrenheit for a chill period of one month meets dormancy requirements for everything or anything depending upon how you read this, and, of course huge growers overwinter potted plants (even the "ma and pop" nurseries), in (heated) hoophouses.

Lastly I will say that one winter I called a local garden center that uses a metal frame structure with minimal light to overwinter pots and when I asked about the temperature (which I now forget), I believe I was told that an even low forties temperature they kept this structure heated at.

If in a greenhouse, your best bet would be on the floor because heat rises. This way you should be able to keep your last years grafts at the coolest spot while preparing your understocks to awake from dormancy. And I'll mention that 45 Fahrenheit is a great number for meeting what seems to me to be complying with all components you face currently.

That is my take on all this.

D.

Thank you both.. so in your opinion which is the killer factor: dry winters, cold winters, sun, tree not fully dormant, etc. assuming the roots are well protected.
Also, when do you expect a higher mortality rate for 1st year grafts, summer, fall or winter

osprey

YES >>>>>> dry winters, cold winters, sun, tree not fully dormant, etc. assuming the roots are well protected.

if zone appropriate .... cold winter is irrelevant.. IMHO ...

in my neck of the woods... winter is the driest season .. all the water is caught in the frozen ground or in snow/ice .... so young plants .. that do not have roots down into mother earth .. can desiccate severely ... maturity and a good root mass lessens it all ...

winter sun.. on tree that does not have the root mass ... can increase the water loss and the tree can not replace what is lost from the leaves since the roots are frozen/inactive ....

an extremely mild fall with an extreme cold snap ... like 60's to zero in a week ... plants that are woody .. that still have lush green growth.. will show tip damage ...

a black pot on a zero degree day with full sun ... might just thaw .... as an extreme example ...

then in the ice zone.. how do you water a pot that is frozen solid.. without creating an ice cube ...

you are on the right track trying to isolate all the variables.. but unless one of us lives in NM .. i don't know how we can really give you answers.. we can debate the variables .... but i personally cant tell you which are irrelevant ....

plants only need 5 things ... hope i can remember them:
LIGHT
WATER
MEDIUM
NUTRIENTS
TEMPERATURE ...

master each of these for what you are doing.. and you will be successful ... miss one ... well ... good luck

for new grafts my personal opinion on each:

LIGHT .. reduced... depending on root maturity.. most new grafts are on seedling stock that was transplanted within the year of grafting .... so it may already be stressed ... and then they go grafting a new piece on by slicing the bark .. etc ... grow the roots and the plant will follow ... burn it all in too much sun.. they die ...

WATER ... conifers like water to drain fast .. most do not like wet feet .. high peat content can mess you up.. add large bits of something to increase drainage.... study every pot you can get your hands on see what the supplier used.. and for what purpose ... up north .. plants don't live in ice cubes ... deal with it if pots freeze

MEDIUM .. see above .. its all about water retention and more importantly.. DRAINAGE ...

NUTRIENTS .. conifers don't need any ... unless in the second or third year of being in the same pot.. if you change the medium .. then you don't need anything else ... a little diluted water soluble.. isn't going to hurt anything.. early in the season.. no fert after 7/1 in my z5 ... we want them going 'down' toward winter.. not putting out explosive growth ...

TEMPERATURE ... if zone appropriate stock.. irrelevant.. if you are zone pushing.. think about your micro climates ... and think about winter wind and sun .. and frankly all of the above ... if you are going to get a killing frost in spring... the bigger your garden.. the less you can do .... chin up.. let ma nature take her best shot.. and then complain ....

any better???? always fall back to the 5 basic things.. and try your best to deal with them ....

now how would you deal with the 5 themes in z7 NM????

ken

I have hundreds of 1-year seedlings in styrofoam cups (stryrofoam is a great insulator and cheaper than buying nursery pots -- Jerry Morris uses these and I learned of this). I plan to put them all on the floor of my greenhouse. I'm also going to keep the temperature just below 50F.

Here's something I never figured out: my mom has successfully kept two Japanese Maples I gave to her at least five years ago -- in her basement with all her tropical plants under a fluorescent light on 24 hours a day. Just a fact.

Another plausable option I see is to keep them in your garage for a month or (outdoors in zone 7) until they've met one months worth of dormancy requirements. At this point, you can bring them into the greenhouse or into your basement or garage and have them under artificial or natural light (allow them to push growth).

Dax

Dax - good idea and easy to do!
Also I have a 16x 20 GH - I am sure that there are sections of the GH ( like near the floor or near the vents) that are colder that the rest of the GH.
Ken -- I think this is very important --MEDIUM .. see above .. its all about water retention and more importantly.. DRAINAGE ---- I have been using bark chips and grit in my soil mix to keep drainage good.

Good Info -- thanks

and one other thing ...

DO NOT BE IN A HURRY TO CUT OFF THE TOP PART OF THE UNDERSTOCK ....

more greenery .. means more food.. means more roots.. means faster 'establishment' ....

all needles eventually fall off ... you may note as your experience grows .. that grafters will allow the understock to bud.. and then take/shear off the buds ... leaving the older needles to continue to function to the benefit of the graft .. without allowing them to expand.. and drain the graft .... when the graft starts to grow to specs ... one might presume the roots are in great shape.. and therefore the plant doesn't need the top part of the understock and it can be removed ....

make sense?

ken