come on larry ... exactly how big is your garden??? 15 by 30 feet. .. what is that .. 5 by 10 meters ???

you would give up 5 years of unadulterated glory enjoying a state of the art tree .... rather than cut it and use it for an xmas tree in 5 years.. and start with another ...??? the primo specimen would cost the same as an xmas tree, .... so why not grow your own ...

anyway .. i have two more...

the newbie collection would need a dragon eye variegated pine ... any one of them ...

Pinus densiflora 'Burke's Red Variegated'
Pinus densiflora 'Cesarini's Variegated'
Pinus densiflora 'Golden Ghost'
Pinus strobus 'Bergman's Variegated'
any pine name 'OD' or 'Oculus Draconis' ... aka dragon eye
Pinus thunbergii 'Oculus Draconus'

and you need one Larch .. such as

Larix kaempferi 'Diana' .. decidouous .. twisty, curly branches....

use any of the Latin names in Google IMAGES page.. for pix ....

ken

Burke's red variegated .. thats yellow with flecks of green.. if you adjust your bifocals.. lol.. burns like heck in winter.. and bounces back each spring.. go figure. ... ken

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This is Chamaecyparis n. 'Strict Weeping' Similar to 'Green Aarow'.
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upper 2/3rds of main leader
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Ken i don't quite understand your argument. My garden is a little bigger but not a lot,but whatever I plant in there stays in there,even if we move.(and we will have to move in a few years time,and I might just take the Goldcrest with me) If i can't fit it in it don't go,simple. And I would NEVER cut a tree down for use as a xmas tree,just not on! I value trees for what they are,not simply as garden ornaments. I don't know how to explain it,its a pagan thing I suppose.

Love the pics, guys!

My local conifer mentor has the same philosophy, Ken...don't not grow something you like just because it will eventually get too big. His garden, which consumes his entire yard, is a tiny city lot. It is quite amazing, though, and crammed full of conifers. He is always removing old and replacing with new. Some are cut down, others are dug and moved to other gardens. A garden is a work in progress...constantly evolving. I can understand the hesitation to destroy a tree, but basically these are garden ornaments (to most of us, anyway) propagated for ornamental use and not really going to make the same impact that removing a huge shade tree would. Heck...chances are they'll be replaced with one or more new trees anyway!

At my age, I plant for the look I want now realizing some day I am going to have to move or destroy a conifer to reclaim the space lost when things get to big for the area. That is a certain when your garden space is limited. In a small garden if I planted with the thought of leaving space for everything to grow up I would not have enough conifers to have a garden to show. I try to reserve space for my plants for the future when they grow beyond the limits. I rotate conifers in and out of areas beginning every October and on some occasions where I can't get them to fit -- they are given away. Some us do not have the luxury of unlimited growing areas so we are forced to make some unpopular decisions as to a conifers future so we can maintain an attractive garden.

I agree with Ken. Cutting down, moving, and recycling conifers, is the name of the game when conifer gardening.

Dave

RE: I agree with Ken. Cutting down, moving, and recycling conifers, is the name of the game when conifer gardening

Yep, 100% right. Conifers are for the most part "trees" and even the small ones get big. Gardening with conifers is a balance between allowing space for then small slow growing ones to grow and not having a sparse garden filled with tiny plants.

Not exactly my problem right now, My slow growing plants are small and spaced out. But I can already tell in a few years things will be sacrificed, moved, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I'd hate to just destroy something. Id rather give it away if possible. I wish I had a section of land to plant trees on until I died and never remove anything. I enjoy it more than anything else. So much that I read books about it and participate in nerdy online forums talking about conifers :)..... I think we would all be better off with a lot more trees and a lot less people. But unfortunately it doesn't matter what I think.

Ken...what perfect timing and what gorgeous trees! Thanks for the great suggestions. And yes Ken, I *definitely* need a larch. :-)

What a lovely landscape DCSteg! That Green Arrow is amazing! I was thinking it would be hard to put in a landscape and there you have it looking as lovely as all get!

Okay, don't boo and hiss the newbie...please? I'm the sensitive type. But, I have to say I'm with Larry! I could never cut down a perfectly beautiful and healthy specimen of a tree, just because it got too big. A tree is just too noble and I guess I'm just too sentimental! :-) Now perennials...yea I can ditch them anytime they don't work for me anymore (but then there are always other gardeners who are happy to adopt them). :-)

P.S. That doesn't mean I still don't admire and respect the heck out of all you Conifer experts. :-)

BTW Larry, don't remember which post it was on, but your little girl is lovely...what a sweet smile and what a twinkle in her eye!

You can live for years next door to a big pine tree, honored to have so venerable a neighbor, even when it sheds needles all over your flowers or wakes you, dropping big cones onto your deck at still of night.
~Denise Levertov~

I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.
A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the earth's sweet flowing breast;
A tree that looks at God all day
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;
A tree that may in Summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;
Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.
Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree.
~Joyce Kilmer, "Trees," 1914

Eileen

I guess I've seen too many trees felled in the past unnecessarily which left me feeling more than a little uneasy,and not being able to do anything about it. I just suppose I'm different to you lot in that the look is secondary to the vision of a noble tree. Until recently I used to do bonsai but it was an addiction,an infatuation if you like,and I realised that over the years I have killed so many trees for the sake of art or whatever reason I did it for. But I've changed of late and now like to give something back. An example is a silver birch I had in training in the garden,clipped and kept small. Well this summer I dug it out,trimmed the side branches to give it its tree like shape again and planted it elsewhere,as a sapling,to become a tree! And when I move it will stay there,growing and becoming until someone down the line decides they don't want it anymore. As for conifers, i did say originally that i don't like garden conifers,I hope you all know what I mean now. Sorry for going on but I had to get this off my chest.as much for me as anyone else.

I love these women: "Boo and Hiss" LOL. KILLs ME every time!..............haaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaahahhhaaaa.

55 - gimmie a break LOL! Oh man. 2 cups of coffee, 2 pieces Rye bread, here I go GET OUTTA MY WAY:

Picea engelmannii 'Bush's Lace' / 'Lace'
Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Pendula','Green Arrow';
Picea omorika 'Pendula Bruns'
Pinus contorta var. latifolia 'Chief Joseph'
Pinus contorta 'Taylor's Sunburst'

Next five:
Pinus sylvestris 'Aurea'
Pinus parviflora 'Tani mano uki'
Picea glauca 'Pendula'
Pinus sylvestris 'Barrie Bergman'
Abies concolor 'Conica'

May I continue Ken?

Next five:
Picea orientalis 'Aureospicata'
Abies balsamea 'Weeping Larry'
Pinus parviflora 'Gimborn's Ideal'
Abies koreana 'Silver Show'
Abies veitchii 'Hedergott' & 'Pendula'

ONLY 5 more:
Abies nordmanniana 'Golden Spreader'
Picea orientalis 'Tom Thumb Gold'
Larix kaempferi 'Blue Rabbit'
Metasequoia glyptostroboides 'Snow Flurry'
Pinus koraiensis 'Gee Broom'

Thanks for everyone's understanding in this very complicated matter I've decided to take on.

Dax

Larry,

We all understand you don't like garden conifers. That's ok with me and I am sure everybody else is in agreement and respects you thoughts.

For those of us that can't have an arboretum size estate we are left with what we have to work with. We work just as hard at it as the person with large garden estate.

I find it very rewarding and challenging to sit down and design an attractive garden for the guy/gal that has limited space to work with. The neat thing about this profession is the choices are unlimited. You can go big or small with many color variations. It's a wide open field with room for everybody to get involved. Not just limited to a specific thing or person likes.

There is a lot to be said about the little guys rock garden on a postage stamp size lot.

As for me and other collectors I am sure they couldn't be happier and just as energized with what they have accomplished with not a thought as to how big their garden is.

Dave

Oops Dave! I need to read a little better....just caught that your lovely specimen *isn't* 'Green Arrow', but 'Strict Weeping', then again I've never seen either. Your specimen is *still* beautiful, as is your landscape.

WOW Dax...what a list! You guys are incorrigible. I suppose I would have to move if I wanted to get *everything* on Ken's and your list...and I *do*. Unfortunately I don't see that as a possibility anytime in the near future. :-)

BTW, could someone give me the definition of a "garden" conifer? Are you referring to dwarf conifers? Well, I love them all, big and small...just can't put too many of big ones in the space I have.

Eileen

Eileen, what I mean by garden conifers is those conifers that are planted in a tight spot with no thought of how big theyre gnona get, and of course theres the brown dying conifer that we see a lot round here, just no thought went into the planting at all. When I see a huge sky reaching conifer thats how I like to see them, being a tree. I DO like the so called Dwarf conifers tho, theres some mini pines Ive seen that are gorgeous, as well as all those spruces and firs, but I imagined they stay small,hence the name Dwarf, but it seems thats not the case. Theyre just very slow growing, so that would mean they still would need a big area to eventually fill in. Or you could just rip it up and bin it when it outgrows its spot, but I imagine that would take many many years so its a moot pouint really. If I saw a nice dwarf for sale in the village I would no doubt buy it, or at least want it, cos they look so good! But all we get round here is leylandii, goldcrest or baby conifers that look like dwarves.

So Larry, I've actualy noticed and I don't think Dave's been around as much lately that you do like conifer "gardening."

You do like the mini and the dwarf as well as the species conifers.

That's right isn't it?

I see things that way from your remarks about the whole 'gammit' of conversation. No need for you to go into a long speech either as I thought I may clear that up for Dave. Your words above 'resemble' that you like the "look" of 'dwarf-like-trees' whether they are actually a mini, a dwarf, or an actual tree.

And if you say no, then I'm outta here. I don't have time for a dumptruck full of "words."

Respectfully - Dax

I imagine all the conifers that outgrow their allotted space in the future will end up being ripped out anyway by the future owners of our properties LONNNNNG after we are dead! lol Sooooooo, might as well plant what you like NOW!

BTW... Larry, I think Dax just called you a woman (teehee! love playing devil's advocate)... because I know he was not referring to me. ;) Laura

Why the heck is larry getting so much flack about what he chooses to do with his plants?
From what I can see is that he is more of a right tree in the right permanent place where he can grow them without moving them person, not the right tree in the place that looks good for 10 years then I have to get rid of it, kind of person.

And why is that a problem???

He can grow his plants however the heck he wants, and he shouldnÂt be called a woman for going by a different attitude towards the plants than everyone else. And if you "disagree" you donÂt have to be "rude" about it.

Dax,yes I do like the look of dwarf conifers i'm just a bit confused by the whole dwarf conifer issue. To me a dwarf is a smaller than normal version of a said tree,not a slow growing tree that will eventually be bigger than the house! Please someone clarify,dwarf conifer! I only have a small garden and an even smaller budget but I like trees and conifers,i just don't have to have em in me garden to like them! You can't keep a whale as a pet but we love to see em! For me gardening is secondary to my love of trees,I don't particularly like gardening in fact but would rather have a gardening job than my current one! I don't like variegated plants or strange hybrids for their own sake but there are plenty who do and I appreciate that-we're all different after all!

Resin has already clarified this to you and I have too and so has Dave and so has Ken and so has, well I'm drawing a blank. When I come to visit, which looks like it could be a 'longggggggggg' time from 'now' and with your wife's permission of course, because I'm a broke joke, we can discuss over and over again that you may do whatever you wish with your trees. Take a look at a photograph sometime. You'll see that a conifer (now you're a professed plantsman, I've read your own words) pushes a "pre-determined" amount of growth FROM THAT BUD. It may vary slightly for these following reasons:
Drought
Soil Content
Water
Hormones (Gibrillic Acid or however it's spelled from a human being injected)
Origin of Locality
Fertilizer
and god only knows what else... whoever/or whatever this person or thing may be.

Some are yellow, some are green, some push white growth in spring over old green needles, some are triggered to grow at different times (think pollination)... and very few grow more than one time 'each' year.

Take a look at Dave's beautiful garden. Some are narrow, some are growing horizontal on the ground because they have come to us from very cold climates, some are "round balls" as a man might say, some are cute as a man might say, some are beautiful as a man might say.

Whatever the case is, Larry, it's a woody plant. I'm so tired anymore I'm going to have to take a break from the gibberish nonsense.

Regards, Respectfully,

DAX

Dax,
What can you tell me about Metasequoia glyptostroboides 'Snow Flurry'? Full sun? I am assuming it is variegated??
My 'Burke's Red Variegated' sits atop the highest point in my yard ( no mountains in Ohio )and has 2 miles of field in every direction to build up a nice wind. I have never seen it burn in winter.... even as a child in a one gallon pot. It has been there about 8 years now. It is much better, winterburn wise, than any other variegated varieties that I have.

Dax, What information I was given regarding dwarfs just didn't no doesn't make sense. I distinctly remember a conversation where the conclusion was that a bristlecone pine is a dwarf because its slow growing. Yet it is not a small tree,its a ruddy great thing that lives forever. I don't know its growth rate,you just don't see them for sale in the supermarket,but even if it is really slow growing,I wouldn't imagine it would look like a typical dense dwarf conifer but even if it did surely it would soon look more tree like that mop like. I don't know, you need to realise I'm not an expert like you lot, the only conifers we see are the usual suspects,and not having a nursery nearby,or native conifers on our doorstep the only way I know and learn about them is on here! Sorry if I've annoyed you,that was never my intention. If you do come over mine's a Guinness! ;)

Hello Larry,

That's what this forum is for. To ask questions, resolve issues, and generally increase our knowledge about conifers.

We all have our likes and dislikes and sometimes it gets out of hand.

For the most part we are all tolerant of each other. 99.9% of the information given out is good. For myself I have benefited from interacting with the forum group.

I recommend that you continue to be a part of the group by posting and asking questions. You haven't annoyed anybody.

Dave

Thanks Dave,I have no intention of leaving,just learning. And its Ken's fault,he started this post with the prophetic words 'let's argue about this...' just kidding Ken ;)

yeah .. i did start that way ..... lol ...

its like arguing about which child is your favorite ....

what we lack so far ... is a newbie saying we hooked them .. and thanks for the list to start with ... lol

ken

Well ken as far as conifers are concerned I AM a newbie,and you lot did get me hooked. And if I could find the time and money I would make a bed somewhere in the garden and search out some mini conifers for it! In the meantime I'm on the lookout for a Spruce or fir,not really concerned of cultivar or 'blueness' I just love the look of them. If I see one for sale I might just have to dig for pennies!

OK FWIW, I'm with Larry. I'd have a very hard time cutting down anything that is growing healthily. I bought my house in the city 20 years ago and it still has it's "trim them every year" yews across the front foundation. Don't have the heart to hack 'em down. Still trying to figure out a way to let them grow free, but that will never happen. I move things as they get crowded, I give other things a bit more room right from the start- but probably not enough room for 20yrs of growth, more like 10 to 15. I do follow Ken's "buy what curls your toes" philosophy and I figure either I, or mother nature, or an accident prone kid on a bike will kill off enough to make room for the others. If not, well, there's still is some sod left...

As for my favorites:
1. Pick a tsuga, any tsuga (I'm a junkie, you know)
2. Abies procera glauca Don't try this in zone 5 east of the Mississippi-oh, wait, that's where mine is.
3. Pinus densiflora 'Little Christopher'
4. Abies koreana 'Cis'
5. Picea glauca 'Pendula'

Honorable mention- Picea abies 'Calvary Upright', 'Kellerman's Blue Cameo', 'St. James' and just about any Picea orientalis or omorika. Oh, and for yellow, Abies nordmaniana 'Golden Spreader'

tj

Ha ha...Ken, you can bet your sweet booties I'm taking notes from all of you. This is a GREAT post and I love Dax list of 20 and as well as your list. I have several of the ones that were listed and love them. I plan to add a few more from all of your lists this Spring. Too bad I can't fast forward 10 years. I'd like to see these things without using a magnifying glass. ha ha. We don't have any unusual conifers sold in this state so I have to order all mine in. Shipping tends to cost almost as much as the plants and I get small plants so that I can afford more of them.

Do all the Larches lose their needles during winter? I have a couple weeping larches and they are already losing their needles. I hope they survive.

My favorites are the pines such as Pinus Strobus 'Laird's Broom'. I love those soft needles, this one happens to look as thought the needles are a bit of lime green with cream coloring infused in them. I love that look. Wish I had more of them.

Another of my favorites is Pinus Strobus 'Hershey' It also has soft needles with a multitude of colors coursing through the needles. Love it!!!!

A few of the ones I just planted this Fall are as follows:

Pinus Densiflora 'Gold Ghost'
Pinus Sylvestris Aurea
Pinus Strobus Fastigata
Picea Pungens 'Iseli Fastigiata'
Picea Pungens 'Montgomery'
Picea Mariana 'Aurea'
Picea Orientalis 'Instar' - I am really excited about this one as the needles are very short, dark green and rather glossy. It looks as though it is going to be a stunning conifer. Does anyone have this one?
Picea Pungens 'Otto Bismark'

That's all I'll list in case you think I've lost my mind with my purchases. ha ha.

By the way. I appreciate SO much seeing all your photos. I do a lot of research online before purchasing and there are not many photos out there. Thank you!!!! Thank you!

Tj

laris = larch ... are decidouous ... and a lot of them turn brilliant yellow in fall ... and how early often depends on how bad a summer you had [not to mention transplant also] ... heat and drought speeding the process up ... i have lost none ... so dont worry about them ... my larix weepers were hit real hard with 6 weeks of 95 degrees and no rain ... they will be fine .. i cant wait until they drop the ugly burnt needles ....

you are welcome on the pix ...

here is one of the species [right term?] .... Larix gmelinii var. olgensis' .. i am not sure the blue ones go yellow.. i will know in a few weeks

ken

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ken,that Larch is fabulous- i love autumn,my favourite season-I'm on the lookout for trees round here colouring up about now.

Ken, I was fortunate to get one of those Larches! What a showstopper.

Larry, I'm a prick. Sorry everyone. Sometimes and after a 'longggggggggg' time of my own troubles, I lose it. It's happened a million times here. I'm probably known in the community here.

I'd like to see photos of this Picea orientalis 'Instar'. Got a camera by any chance?

Dax

Ken...your photos are fabulous....looks like you have your own arboretum going there. What is the name and cultivar of that Larch in your last photo? What a beauty! Need to add that to the growing list of "somedays" you have all been providing for me. My poor change purse wimpers when I pull it out now...LOL!

Larry, I love autumn too. Spring & Autumn...my favorite seasons. If I had my druthers there would be 5 months of spring, 2 months of summer, 4 months of fall and 1 month of winter. If anybody discovers that state/country...please let me know! :-)

Eileen

the name was in the words above the picture ... from memory.. Larix gmelinii var. olgensis' .....

i usually name the pix.. otherwise its pretty useless to enable you with.. lol ...
ken

Sorry Ken. I don't know how I missed that...Thanks!

because you are at that stage.. where your eyes glaze over when thinking or reading about conifers.. lol ... ken

Dax no problem mate,we all get stressed and say or do the wrong things from time to time. I realise i was being a bit of an arse regarding these trees,so lets kick back with a Guinness or 3 (I wish)

LOL Ken...thanks for understanding. :-) I will admit you guys have my head spinning!

Eileen

How do you pick just 5...

Here are 3 of my 5 must haves, all grabbed at awesome prices this August and plopped in a temporary bed until fall planting (rock placement is also totally temporary).
1. Picea glauca 'Pendula'
2. Picea orientalis 'Skylands'
3. Xanthocyparis nootkatensis 'Pendula'
4. Can't argue with the blue spruce suggestion
5. Pick a pine, any pine that floats your boat. Here is another fall pickup of Taylor's Sunburst

Tough not to have a Hemlock on the list - straight species or Pendula or a mounding Pine or...

Willis

You're a more decent man than I Larry. Thanks for not taking a chunk out of my head.

Willis, you got style brother and scionwood!!

Dax

Nice trees Willis,that last pic is a Hemlock right? And in the first of the 2 pics what is the small yellowish conifer on the right?
Dax,we all have our off days,mine are more off than on at the mo;)

Great thread.

That's why I hang around.

What's next Ken?

Dave

The last pic is a Pinus contorta 'Taylor's Sunburst' although there is a Gentch's White Hemlock in the background on the right side. I just mentioned Hemlock since it would be hard to keep that off the list of 5 must haves. Here is my Tsuga canadensis 'Pendula' - I actually have 2 after a great deal on another this August. One for the front of the house, one for the back.

Dax, just tell me what ya need and more importantly what & when to do.

Willis

a couple notes on various suggestions.....

Xanthocyparis nootkatensis 'Pendula' will probably be labeled as Cham nootkatensis 'Pendula' .. the tag makers decades behind the nomenclature peeps ... regardless ... THIS IS GOING TO BE ONE HUGE PLANT ... and perhaps.. though cool as heck [another conifer i actually have two of on my 5 acres, contrary to my 'collector' mentality] .. i am pretty sure they have one at hidden lakes that i am guessing is 75 feet tall.. and 35 to 50 feet wide .. probably there since about 1985 ... so plan ahead ...

second.. i misspelled LARIX above ... it is NOT Laris

third .... Pinus densiflora 'Little Christopher' ... contrary to its name is not little .... mine grows like a weed.. and is about a 6 foot round ball ... this is one of the plants where i learned.. dwarf does NOT MEAN SMALL .... lol .... here is a picture
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ken

Willis,I thought it looked like a pine,nice little tree. You guys,you know I'd love a huge plot of land and plant all these recommendations on it!

oh .. and though i say you need a dragon eye pine.. stay away from P koreansis OD ...

though gorgeous as a koreansis .. is that spelled correct? ... its completely lacking as a dragon eye.. showing a branch here or there once every 5 years ... pshaw ....

ken

Ken you got me confused now,you saying there's more than one Dragon's Eye?

ah .. a nomenclature issue.... there are dragon eye plants all across the garden ... one of the problems with referring to a plant as simply OD .... do you mean koreansis.. strobus.. densiflora .... thunbergii .... etc ...

perhaps resin can better explain the catch 22 .. and what the rule currently is... these names have been around for decades ... i do NOT think you can properly register a plant these days.. with a descriptive term ...

and don't get me started on joe cesarini .... who named a lot of conifers after .. mrs cesarini ... its all very confusing .... lol ... he must have loved that woman .... or she reminded him of a lot of trees .... rotf ... i just googled it.. its his mom.. go figure ....

resin probably isn't following this anymore.. because we aren't posting pix of green plants.. lol ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: google

Well i can honestly say I'm lost!I'd just got used to a pine with red eyes(Dragon's Eye) only to find out there's more than one! And I have never heard of Cesarini,information overload ;)

Larry.. i will try to simplify it for you ... in a few years.. lol .. your daughter can explain it to you .. lol

OD is a descriptive term .... in the olden days... you could name a plant OD .... so there was an OD in a lot of different pines ... as listed above ...

they have changed the rules .. and you have to use a real name now ... not a descriptive term ... i think that is the correct way to explain it ...

here is an example you might under stand ...

Pinus strobus 'Dragon eye Dirty diaper' .. a descriptive term ... lol .. think about it.. rotf ....

more properly it should be Pinus strobus 'Pampers' ... or P. s. 'Luvs' or or P. s. 'White Cloud' ... or whatever version you have over the pond ...

and you cant have Pinus strobus 'pampers' and a pinus koreansis 'pampers' .. and P thun. 'Pampers' ....

the 'pampers' part is 'taken' with the first naming ....thereby avoiding confusion ... especially in Larry's head .. lol ... and mind you, mine.. and every body elses ... your confusion is actually the exact reason for the rule change .... right resin???

any clearer ..???

ken

Err,right! Thing is I got it into my head that oculis draconis was part of the latin name of one particular pine.(Pinus oculis draconis, like Michaelmas Daisys name is Aster novae belgi.)

I learned something. I never heard Ken that the same culitvar name couldn't be reproduced from species to species such as Pinus koraiensis 'Timber' or Pinus strobus 'Timber'. Never heard that until now.

That Cesarini deal was funny Ken. The excitement that echoes into my ears!

Dax

Hi Ken I like that Pinus densiflora 'Little Christopher' . just how fast do you estimate that tree is growing? it reminds me of the Pinus densiflora 'Umbraculifera' I was thinking about getting. I like that it has a nice thick trunk. Jason