+oM,

Bare-root conifers should be planted only in spring in cold climates. I'm sure of it.

Dax

Thanks Dax....this location certainly qualifies as a cold-climate location. Pretty much what I'm already thinking.

+oM

I was just about to post a new related larch thread! What a coincidence.
My question: it seems likely to me that some of not all strains of Larix marshclinsii/eurolepis are more like 75%+ E. decidua. Think about it. The original cross was made in Scotland where the Asian species was an arboretum rarity and the plain European larch was probably common in plantings and used in forestry. It might even be native. The original would have been 50/50, but subsequent generations were more likely to get pollen from E. decidua.

Part of the reason I think this is that my 9' E. eurolepis from Forestfarm finally kicked the bucket after this, the 3rd hottest July in the DC area. (i.e., the 3rd in a row that was the hottest - not the 3rd hottest. 2011 and 2010 were the 2nd and 3rd and this year was the first!) The intolerance of E. decidua to heat is well known, with no specimens south of Leesburg, Virginia, and that one doesn't look to good. (of course, there are good looking ones at Longwood, but that's just Longwood) OTOH L. kaempferi is known to grow on good sites in the South. Maybe I should have watered my Larch during the dry spell...which wasn't quite as bad as 2011's...but I kind of though, sucker, if you're gonna grow 2+ feet a year you better start fending for yourself.
If nothing else, if Forestfarm's were grown from seed that self-fertilized, those tree and now probably several generations away form the originals, and could be getting a bit too line bred.

Astonish to compare is the performance of E. mastersiana. Although this is supposedly related to the finicky-even-in-England L. griffithiana, it's been an absolute trooper. Presumably the part of China it comes from is hotter than the high Himalayan haunts of E. griffithiana. It's in a hotter, drier spot than the E. X eurolepis was, and I watered it at most once each of the last 3 summers. (btw I have previously lost F-farm's "tube size" Dunkeld larches, even in relatively benign summers. I had to start with a gallon to get one going) Nevertheless it's gone from a little 8" seedling to about 25". It's got just a bit of tip needle burn this year, but looks loads better than the E. eurolepis did for most of its life. One thing I like is it's a darker grey-green compared to the "eternal-spring" light green look my hybrid larch had. Another notable thing is that, in attempting to air layer it a couple weeks ago, I noticed that the foliage and branches are incredibly resinous and fragrant for a larch. Perhaps more so than even a spruce would be. In contrast the hybrid larch seemed barely resinous at all.

Hope to hear from our Resin (LOL) on the issues I raise, if only because the cross originated in the UK and he is our UK expert.

Indeed, just today, I read a slew of research papers about larch, including pretty much what you just got into-the difficulty in first of all finding, and then tracking the genetics of L. marschlinsii seed. Given that larch has attracted a LOT of interest from both universities and forest products companies, there's lots of stuff out there to read. There used to be a place right in this city called "The Institute of Paper Chemistry" which did lots of genetics work with larch, had a nursery outside of town, the whole bit. Even though they got moved to Georgia more than twenty years ago, their research can still be found online from their days here in WI.

Anyway, it was stated by someone at one time that when it comes to this hybrid, the F1 were superior to later replications. Thing is, nowadays, there is simply no F1 stuff out there, save perhaps, any surviving trees from the original grove, plus unknown scattered trees. But because even an "inferior" hybrid larch still outgrows and outperforms just about any comparable species, and since larch, by reason of having attracted so much attention, continues to be worked with genetically, I think we'll see more good stuff coming.

In the meantime, I've probably resigned myself to planting only the pine and spruce next spring. There will still be a few acres open to install the larch I want, if and when they become available again. That was my first plan B, and probably the best.

Who knows though, three-way hybrids could originate on my land someday between marschlinsii and the native tamaracks right nearby! That could be interesting.

+oM

"Anyway, it was stated by someone at one time that when it comes to this hybrid, the F1 were superior to later replications"

Yep, that's correct; F2 and later generations won't exhibit the full level of heterosis (hybrid vigour).

"My question: it seems likely to me that some of not all strains of Larix x marshclinsii are more like 75%+ E. decidua. Think about it. The original cross was made in Scotland where the Asian species was an arboretum rarity and the plain European larch was probably common in plantings and used in forestry. It might even be native. The original would have been 50/50, but subsequent generations were more likely to get pollen from E. decidua"

Quite possible at first (~1900; i.e., the first F2 plants), but more recently (post-1950), Japanese Larch has been more extensively used in plantations, so the two parents are about equally common in Britain now (though with local variation in which is commoner). BTW, European Larch isn't native in Britain, it's from the Alps and Carpathians.

"Astonish to compare is the performance of E. mastersiana. Although this is supposedly related to the finicky-even-in-England L. griffithiana, it's been an absolute trooper. Presumably the part of China it comes from is hotter than the high Himalayan haunts of E. griffithiana"

That's certainly understandable on geographic grounds. But equally, it'll be interesting to check its identity when it starts coning! It has failed repeatedly when tried in Britain, which is odd as other conifers from that area do reasonably well here.

The other larch that would be well worth trying more extensively in the US midwest is L. principis-rupprechtii, from the low, fairly dry mountains west of Beijing. Often treated as a variety of L. gmelinii, but is geographically well separated from it (~700 km), and is as distinct as any other larch.

Resin

L. principis-rupprechtii

==>> and its blue ...

ken

davidrt28, my Forestfarm hybrid Larch (~30' tall) isn't happy in heat/drought. Foliage is thin & some dropped needles. It could be the poor soil to some extent, but Japanese Larch only 45' away looks much better.

I'd go so far as to say no larch are truly happy in drought. Yes, perhaps the Jap. is best in that regard, but it seems no larch really has much use for dry conditions. Some Europeans here in town looked like they were just about to drop their needles, and then the rains came. I've seen tamarack brown up in hot, dry weather too.

None of which is meant to refute your observations, davidrt.

+oM

+oM,

I've exhausted every resource I have for L.marshclinsii with no avail.

Best Regards,

Dax

Tom and others:

I have been growing hybrid larch and European for about 10 years here in extreme Northern VA. Two years ago we had, officially, according to the US Drought Monitor, an "extreme" drought. Locally, a number of weaker trees died. Both my hybrid larch and my European didn't get a drop of water from me, and I saw no effects from the drought of any kind. Also, that year we had 8 days at or near 100 degrees. One day was 103!

Now I do have good deep soils, and research has shown that larch does best on deep soils.--Yes, I know that's true of most trees, but a forest researcher at SUNY Syracuse--I can't remember his name--told me that for larch, deep soils are more important than for other species. But he also said that if the larch are growing on a slope, that helps them grow well on shallower soils.

I made other comments on this topic in the Trees forum, so I won't repeat those here.

--spruce

Thanks Spruce. Good info. Thanks too Dax. Your results mimic my own. Appreciate the effort.

Heading up north now-big meteor showers tonight!

+oM

Thanks for updating us on your experience Spruce. What my limited observations with the hybrid show is a kind of "stupid heterosis". Even the smallest plants like the Dunkeld Forestfarm tubes I tried at first, are willing to grow like nuts when they have water. My tree that just finally died grew 2.5' after a few spring rainstorms corrected the late winter mild drought we'd had. Mind you I wasn't doing anything rash like fertilizing them. OTOH, the Larix mastersiana has grown "slow and steady". So maybe the hybrid is great in maritime climates where its rank growth doesn't get it in trouble come a hot summer.

But in any case, I've got to have a few in my garden. I think they can be some of the most picturesque large conifers, right up there with Cedar of Lebanon, in the right setting. There's a gorgeous L. decidua at Longwood, near the house.

Beng, also meant to thank you, too. My 9' tree, only a few years old, started dropping needles about 3 weeks ago and kept dropping them over the next week and half. And then there were none LOL!

How old is your tree? The Japanese larch I posted a picture of last year (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/conif/msg0420145823825.html) was planted in the late 70s according to the owners. So it's not slow but not exactly a speed demon, either.

I need to give everyone planting larch--and a number of other trees for that matter--a warning, or a bit of advice: They may need several years establishment time. Please, please be patient.

I live in an area that is in the rain shadow of the Appalachian Mts here in the northern end of the Shenandoah Valley. One source says we get an average of 2.8 inches or rain in July, which is much less than most areas in the northeast or Mid-Atlasntic states. We often go 30 days or more in summer with no rain. Our annual precipitation averages just 35 inches.

I watered my larch for at least 4 years, and maybe for 5. But it is my experience that once well establihed, on fairly deep soils anyway, they are drought resistant. Really, the year before last things here were really, really dry--officially an "extreme" drought. Our grass was completely brown, and most weeds were dying or severely wilted during the day. My cottonwoods lost a lot of their leaves--they turned yellow and fell. But I couldn't see any effect on my larches at all. I had some young ones, which I watered, but those 10 feet tall and 5 or more years, old showed no ill effects.

The drought that year at the Virginia Arboretum was only at the "severe" level, but all the larches there did just fine.

So, plant larch, and water very carefully for at least three years, and if you have dry spells/droughts, water during those for 5 years or more. Larch are beautiful trees, and from what I have seen, the European, the Japanese, and the hybrid all do well.

One note: At Monticello, one of the longest surviving trees documented to have been planted by Jefferson himself, was a European larch. It finally died 8 or 10 years ago, but it was a very tough survivor. It was not growing near the house where the soils are fine, but a ways out back where the soils are thin and poor.

Also, there is a nice old European Larch at Oatlands in the upper part of the garden. There was another, even older one, down in the lower left corner of the Garden, growing with two Norway spruce. One of the spruces died a number of years ago, and a storm took out the remaining Norway spruce and the larch about two or three years ago. I loved that old larch and was sad to see it gone the last time I visited.

The next time I visit Longwood I will Look at the larch there--for some reason I don't remember it now.

Larches are one of the most underplanted trees around here.

--Spruce

davidrt28, when first in the ground (2004) the hybrid larch, after a year, grew very fast for yrs & one yr 42". Lately it has slowed down drastically -- last yr only 10", slightly more this yr. Many of my trees' growth rates have slowed down (at least at the top) over time, but not that much. And from mid-summer on it continually loses its oldest needles when hot & dry. Hmm, wonder if spider-mites might be on it...

Anywhoos, Japan larch has grown 2-3'/yr & after some girdling-root issues has overtaken the hybrid @ more than 30' tall. Much healthier-looking -- better, more acidic soil might be partly responsible, but it's hard for me to think that's all of it.

I'd guess that Japan larch may do well even in the hot, urban DC area if given some late-afternoon-on shade on a relatively cool, north-facing slope.

spruceman, the NCDC (National Climatic Data Center) shows 1980-2010 Winchester-area annual precip ~38"-39", tho the last ten yrs is a bit below that -- most of the deficit in the summer months.

From 2004 on here ~14 miles east of the Allegheny front, avg annual precip is ~42.3" by my raingauge. But it has been a relatively wet period.

For another comparison, the latest 30-yr avg (1980-2010) for nearby LaVale, MD is ~40" if you want to calculate from the below website's data. The annual avgs for Cumberland/LaVale area have risen recently to ~40" from 35-36" in the 1930s-1980s (and ~40" in the early 1900s). Most of the ridge/valley regions east of the front range have seen at least some increases in the latest 30-yr avg from the previous dryer periods, tho the late 1800s/early 1900s were as wet as now (but colder).

Here is a link that might be useful: LaVale, MD records

If some don't know about it already, the SERCC has good climate summaries:
http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/historical.html

Spruce I appreciate your tip about watering larches. But I would have had mixed feelings about pampering a plant that had been in the ground 4 years. My thinking is sort of like, if it can't form an adequate root structure for mild-to-moderate drought in that time period, it may never have one ready for moderate-to-severe drought. I'd rather lose the plant now than in 10-15 years when it will be even more unexpected. Here is a list of things in the same general area, planted more recently, that were able to fend for themselves during the dry spell: Betula albo-sinesis, Magnolia 'Vulcan', Magnolia dianica, Idesia polycarpa. The stereotype, if you will, would be that the conifer should be tougher than these. So, not exactly survival of the fittest, but death of the weakest. As I implied earlier, it seemed to put way too much effort into top growth. About 2 years ago it partially blew over...which was a curious accomplishment considering how spindly and open it was, and had to be staked. In >20 years of raising trees and shrubs I can think of few things that grew as "irresponsibly" har har har.

Beng, sounds like your larches have done well, overall, at your location. What is your elevation? Even if it's not particularly high, night time temps seem to be appreciably lower out there. Do they color similarly in the fall? The main thing I'll miss about my Dunkeld larch was the wonderful fall color it had in good years - an almost ghostly, luminous straw-yellow.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/historical.html

david, I'm @ 900' on a floodplain right at the westward opening of a mountain gap (where the tiny stream cuts thru). Soil ranges from good to even outstanding, but soil adjacent to the road where the hybrid is has a compacted layer of crushed limestone. Not good, but other trees do reasonably well in it.

Being in a frost-hollow, nitetime summer lows are often remarkably cool; for example the hottest day this summer was 98F & the low was 60F! Easier on the plants during summer-heat, but not good for many trees w/frost-sensitive early leaves & flowers, tho larch here seems immune to late frosts.

Even w/needle loss, both trees have, like you say, a ghostly pale-yellow that shows best on dark, cloudy days or low sun angles in early Nov when most trees have shed. In fact, it seems like my conifers put on the best fall-color here, w/alot of bald and pond cypresses, larches and a big dawn redwood.

for example the hottest day this summer was 98F & the low was 60F!

WOW! Believe me, that helps certain plants cope. Not conifer related exactly, but it reminds me of how well Rhododendrons can do in central Sonoma County, CA, far from the foggy Bay area. Summer highs are in the mid 80s, but nights always Here along the Bay there would be no chance of such a diurnal variation in summer. OTOH, in 6 years I've never had a real freeze before Thanksgiving, and some years not even a frost.

David:

Different kinds of trees require different establishment times. I would be sorry to see someone let a good tree "go" just because it may need more time. Also, establishment times may vary depending on soil. I have very good soil, and it is deep, but it has one flaw--it has a large shrink-swell factor depending on how much moisture it has. This may affect some trees more than others.

Here are a few examples of what my trees have done--white pine and Norway spruce get fully established in three years--so they can withstand a severe drought. Normally they don't need watering after the first year, but in the extreme drought the year before last, a few that I had planted three years before, died before I got water to them.

I planted some Arizona cypress--regular species. I did not test them, but they grew as if they became established in just a month or so.

Other trees are SLOW. For example, my Edith Bogue magnolia looked sick for 5 years, and each year it barely grew an inch or two, barely replacing the leaves it lost. It needed water even when it was only moderately dry. I know 95% of people would have given up on this tree--it was ugly and seemed it would continue to be ugly. But I wouldn't give up. This year, its 6th, suddenly, boom! It grew 18 inches and is covered with lush leaves. I love these magnolias, but without some extreme patience, I wouldn't have this one. This year when we got to the moderate drought level, no water! Hooray!

I have one red maple which after 4 years in the ground, is struggling. Recently when we brfiefly got officially into the moderate drought range, it started looking sick with some yellow starting to take over some of the leaves. But I won't let it go. I am sure that in another year or two it will be fully drought resistant, as are all my other red maples.

My golden weeping willows had a lot of their leaves turn yellow and drop in dry spells, even after being in the ground 5 years. Maybe they would have survived, but I watered them to make sure. Two years ago in the extreme drought we had here, they were unaffected, and got no water from me. They just needed more time!

What I look for as an indication that a tree "may" be getting established, is good top growth for two years, and growing to a height of 6 feet or more. My willows looked vunerable even after they were 15 feet tall. Of course Norway spruce can be drought resistant when they are very small, but often trees that are very small, and have not shown good healthy top growth, also don't have deep root systems. My soils have rooting zones as deep as 60 inches or more--it takes time for trees to get their roots down anywhere near that depth. Boy, I am giving them all the time they need.

As for the Winchester rain averages, I just took them from our local newspaper. I have seen other figures that show our averages a bit higher. Since I have been here, it seems we have not had even what the newspaper quotes as the average. But we do get occasional very heavy rains in summer. Just two miles or so south of us, two days ago they had absolute flooding rains. Must have been 6 inches or more. But the Airport weather station had zero.

--spruce

Hehe.....none of my thousands of seedlings will be watered, ever. That includes at the time of planting. It would be an understatement to say there's an element of luck involved!

+oM

Tom:

I never watered any of the little bare root seedlings I planted at my timberland--completely impractical. But in northern VA, virtually zero would survive without water, unless it were a much better than average year.

I almost never lost any at my timberland, at least not to drought--it is cool and wet much of the time. But critters and weevils got some. BUT, in the horrible drought year of 1988, almost none survived. That year we had two--yes, two 30 day periods with NO rain, and just one, one-inch storm in between. I hope you have a good year when you plant the large number you have planned.

--spruce

Thanks Spruce. I've been known to hold plants so as to try and match up with a rain. I've also taken the step of having the forester order up an inch of rain per week and moderate temperatures for next year!

This whole thing represents a departure for me-from my first plantings there in which I would hand-dig holes, mulch with woodchips and yes, even do some initial watering as best I could. I also used to trim around my trees and spray glyphosate rings. The trend has been away from all of that finally arriving at this machine-plant operation I've got lined up. Forester is not the guy I originally worked with, that guy retired, and this one was much less willing to reimburse me for my cadillac methods. Initially, I was peeved. I'd expected, and documented work hours to the tune of something like $1500 that year of transition. His offering was something like $150! But once we met up there and got talking, I decided his ideas had merit. Among them, the machine, which he says will do a really good job and a tighter stocking rate than I'd been doing, to allow for losses. Obviously, mulching will too be out of the question.

When I began, that planting area was alfalfa. He said that a corn crop in the prior year would in effect give one year of free weed control, so when my farmer guy wanted to do corn, I said sure. He's into Roundup Ready which I do realize there is considerable legitimate question about, but I do think in the case of this planting, it too should be helpful. And while that area is at the very north limit of meaningful agriculture in this state, it is interesting to note that the corn up there did great, my field included, unlike the major growing areas further south. He's also big on an over the top herbicide spraying in year two, which I will also look into. There's guys that contract work like that out. I don't recall the chemical off the top of my head but I've got it here somewhere. All in all, this is a much bigger scale planting method. But for what I'm trying to accomplish, it sounds good.

+oM

I established a "Larch arboretum" years ago at my parents' place in NE Ohio. By far the most vigorous and best species has been L. kaempferi. However, I still have nice specimens of many species, including. L. gmelinii var. gmelinii, L. laricina (native Ohio source), L. x czekanowskii (gmelinii x russica), L. russica, L. decidua ssp. polinica etc. The poorest growers have been L. occidentalis and L. lyallii (not surprsingly). L. principis-rupprechtii does well in the midwest, as does L. olgensis and L. mastersiana. I suspect L. potaninii might do well, but it died as a seedling for me (as did L. griffithiana). I never tried L. speciosa, however.

As for a source for L. x marschlinsii, have you contacted Itasca Greenhouses in Minnesota? They used to sell them as tubes. I also have connections with the Aspen-Larch Genetics Coop in Minnesota if you want me to inquire about seeds.

Tom:

Yes, 1,600, or whatever the number is, requires some special methods. I never tried to plant nearly so many. One year I may have done something like 400, and the forester did not think I could keep them all properly weeded.

I have no experience with trees in little tubes, but for bareroot, rain at planting time is not important at all. If the soil has decent moisture in it, the roots are put down straight and deep, and they are in about three weeks or more before the usual time of bud break for the species, they do just fine. In 1988 in Garrett county MD, the soil dried out completely to a depth way beyond where any seedling roots were--no chance for any to survive.

I had acouple of 20 foot tall white pines die that year. Norway spruce was the least affected tree of any kind at my timberland that year--there wasn't even any noticeable growth reduction, either that year or the next. Some of my large timber-sized sugar maples seemed, from that year, to go into decline, and never really recovered.

--spruce

Yes, the total number of trees to be planted is 5400. Obviously, time for a little mechanization! FWIW, a "tree-planting machine" is really just an implement pulled behind a tractor with a 3-point hitch which first opens a furrow, then the person riding along on it places a seedling in the furrow, hopefully at the proper spacing interval, and finally a second part of the machine closes the furrow up, burying the roots. Very simple stuff but the results are good. There is vast acreage in Oconto County-the county where my tree farm is-planted to largely red pine using this method. As many of those sites are now 60+ years old, the trees are substantial. The forester got back to me today, and as expected, he urged me to simply sub. tamarack for the hybrid larch. Again, that would not be a bad thing per se, but since I still have the option of simply waiting a year and planting the hybrids then, assuming availability at that time, this is the course I expect to take.

There are significant logistical aspects to a project such as this. He even wrote that fall planting is a good option, which is the first mention of that that I've heard. But this would then require that the farmer guy's harvest would time out right, and that's just one hoop too many. I am thinking of a 3-way split for this period though, as was the initial plan, but substituting white pine for the larch. Any thoughts?

+oM

I planted thousands of cabbage starts riding on one of those machines behind a tractor. I envy you planting trees instead.
Mike

Tom:

I just wrote a response in the trees forum. Well, as for red pine there, you answered one of my questions. Fall planting of evergreen conifers? I guess they are protected by snow. Neither in Garrett county MD, nor here in VA, do foresters recommend fall planting. In fact, the VA State Nursery doesn't even offer seedlings in the fall.

Wait for your larch. If you haven't already, you should call Itasca and reserve what you need--they should be happy to do that for you, maybe with a deposit to assure your follow through. Your planting is a big thing, and you don't want in future years to say to yourself, "I should have...."

As for the machine planting. You can, yourself, go over the plantings, and correct any mistakes and/or ensure that the trees are all in properly. That should help survival.

--spruce

Yep, Spruce, I'm awaiting a reply from Itasca at present. Hope they don't jack the price seeing as there are apparently three of us scrambling to get them-myself and the two parties that already bought them out of hybrid and European for next spring! And you're exactly right-a three person crew is recommended. A tractor driver, a planter and a follow-up guy on foot to fix things as needed. I knew there was a reason I had two sons! And Mike, you aren't kidding...a tree crop is infinitely more desirable than cabbage! Where the heck did you do that? I'm actually very near Wisconsin's cabbage country!

+oM

Just north of Spokane, Wa., +oM.
It's Zone 5 country. Dry land wheat, and oats. Cabbage, carrots, and cucumbers on irrigated land. There were a lot of orchards also. Oh, and grass seed for lawns and of course, alfalfa. We always had a veggie garden at least the size of a city lot. It was a fun way to live as a kid.
After the hard frosts of November the cabbage was as sweet as an apple.
22 days straight with no rain here near Seattle. None forecast. I'm only watering plants in pots.
Mike