BB Norway spruce dropping needles 3mo later

9 years ago

Hey All. One of my favorite forums, you guys (and gals) are the most informative and conifer obsessed people I know. Thanks for all the info over the years.

In April I planted a B&B Norway spruce from HD. It was "right off the truck" and had minimal torture in the parking lot of HD since I picked it up within an hour or two of being unloaded. (I verified with the stock guy). Anyway, it was about 4.5 feet tall and I thought it was container grown (I didn't realize it was B&B until I took it out of the container at home). It was planted in full sun before bud break and about 4 inches or so above soil level due to high clay content. No amendment except a handful of manure thrown in to the wheel barrow as I mixed the soil to backfill. The container was essentially sand so I pulled as much sand out without disturbing the root ball and added the leftover sand to the clay and manure mixture working it really well so I was mixed up and put everything back into the hole.

A few weeks ago bud break occurred ( seemed late to me) and now the new growth is droopy and loosing needles. I shook a few branches and the ground is littered with needles. Both new growth and old growth seem to be loosing needles. Any ideas? Do you think the tree is a total goner? I have planted lots of conifers this way on this property over the years and never saw anything so dramatic.

In other news, some of the conifers I thought were goners came back after this terrible winter. with much more needle damage...so not to worried, I just have this tree in a prominent spot.

thanks

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Comments (5)

Embothrium
9 years ago
Dig around in hole and see if there is a water problem (dry or wet areas). Otherwise tree was probably dug with inadequate (small) root system that can't keep the top hydrated.

Any textural modification of soil going into hole is amending of back-fill, as far as watering issue produced by this is concerned - the main reason not to make back-fill different from soil around hole is to prevent moisture problems within the back-fill.

Trees at big box stores here often look like they are b-grades (smaller or less branched specimens, the better ones having been sold elsewhere) or from batches that were gotten cheaply from growers that were clearing fields or going out of business
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
9 years ago
hot spit... did you followed every post we ever wrote on how to do it right .. crikey ... beautiful ... but you couldnt help yourself with the 'nure eh ... lol ... but that isnt the issue ...

a the boy said... dig .. with a hand trowel.. 6 to 8 inche holes.. on the periphery of the ball you plnated... AND FIND OUT WHATS GOING ON DOWN THERE ...

its either too wet.. or too dry ...

adjust accordingly ...

but do let us know ...

my spring was 4 to 6 weeks late this year.. just south of ann arbor... EVERYTHING was late ... so your story doesnt surprise me ... but that story eneded.. for spruce.. about the first week or two of june .... mid to late july is way off ...

the boy is probably right.. but you wont know about the root slaughter, if any .. until it dies and you bare root it and find out ...

finally.. it is not uncommon ... for them to show the result of the digging.. shipping and planting stresses.. when the real heat of the midwest hits in late july/august ...

double finally ... there is a phase. just after bud break.. when the growth is so huge.. so fast.. that the plant appears droopy ... and it takes a few weeks for the plant to pump it up ...

triple finally.. give us a pic ... you are making us guess... at best ...

ken

ps: we could do you a lot better than a bigboxstore green plain old spruce.. if you asked ... mail order for fall.. will solve all your problems ... lol
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It must be exciting (it would be for me) to have that many trees at that height, instantly... Really looking forward to your pics. You know I would forget the drip system (they're not as easy as people think to maintain- emitters get clogged, there a lot of work to put together- but I will defer to those that are more versed in them than I) ...I would recommend each tree has (2) 5-gallon buckets on each side - (your trees are large, other people (1) bucket is enough) with either one brick or a decent size rock in each. You drill a 1/16 hole or ~, in each bucket and come thru with a hose and fill each bucket a few times a week. Keep the buckets clean so they don't get clogged. Living in the country (Me) I have dust and dirt flying around. Put the drilled hole(s) near but not at the trunk and over the course of the summer bring them back away from the trunk say an inch per week. I'd start off with the holes 6" away from the trunk. You can find buckets at bars, restaurants, etc-. You want to keep the soil moist all summer so you may need to go 3x. I'd do 2x starting now per week. Congrats man. I'd be stoked. This is like the best birthday present ever in my mind. Dax
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the nursery said they were most likely dug up during a drought, and maybe sat out and didn't get watered enough or in time. But I'll keep an eye on them- hopefully they pull through- if not I'm not worried about getting refunded or anything- they take good care of me, its just the pain of digging them out and replanting all over again once the bed is all finished up nice. good thing its only three of them.
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For me cutting off the ends of branches on a Norway spruce or a blue spruce would disfigure the tree, perhaps permanently. One of the beauties of a spruce tree is the sweeping branches reaching outward. If these are cut back, causing the branch to fork, it takes away from this effect, and could result later on in these forked branches crossing each other. I was once driving along with a friend and pointed out an astonishingly beautiful Norway spruce tree with wonderful weeping branchlets. This person told me she thought the tree was ugly, and added that she did not like trees that had any space between the branches. So, beauty may be in the eye of the beholder. If you want a dense tree with no space between the branches maybe some other kind of conifer would be better for you. --Spruce
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Wow - you dug up a seriously old post! So I did end up planting a very long screen -- basically the entire length of the property line -- and I'm actually really happy with how it turned out. We used Thuja Green Giant arborvitae in the center where the tallest part of the house we are trying to block out is -- we planted them a decent distance apart, not all jammed up like I see people do for a property line screen. They have grown fast, widened out, and are basically almost up to the roof of the house we are trying to hide. I think they should cap out right about 35 feet or so, which won't block the view. We planted a few during our initial planting then filled in with a few more a couple years later -- those later plantings are a bit stunted - not sure if it's because we squeezed them into less space or they were just inferior to begin with (originals came from a nursery and were planted by a landscaper, later ones from Home Depot and we DIYed them). But they are all growing well and healthy, and seem impervious to deer, wind, cold, snow, etc. To the sides of the arborvitate, we used Nellie Stevens hollies. They too have grown fast. They don't much care for the wind -- they ended up looking pretty bad by the end of the last two winters (which were brutally cold and windy) but they filled in with new leaves in the spring. The deer don't seem to eat them either. And again, I think they cap out at 20 feet or so. To the sides of that (which is getting away from blocking the house and now just screening their yard from ours) we used forsythias planted very close together that we let grow wild into a thick hedge -- mainly because I love forsythia. It's not evergreeen but the hedge is so thick and branches are so close together that it does a decent job of screening even in winter. And in spring when it is in bloom, it is an absolutely stunning wall of yellow. Again the deer don't bother them and they seem to grow well without much care. And finally at the very end of the property lines, we used sea green junipers -- again, we were looking for something evergreen but it didn't need to be tall - we were only trying to hide the neighbor's "junk pile" which was unfortunately located so that it was the first thing you saw when you pulled into our driveway. Those are the plants that look the sickliest -- there's always big brown patches in them and the snow breaks the branches. But they are farthest from the house and from far away they look ok, so I don't mind them. I think if I had to do it over again, I'd have used all forsythia instead of also using juniper -- the forsythia are just so amazingly gorgeous when they are in bloom. I would take a picture for you but we are in the middle of a storm right now -- if I remember, I will get one tomorrow. Here's a link to a pic of what it looked like when we first planted itin 2009: Newly planted And here's a shot from the summer of 2012 (sorry for lousy pic -- best I could find): Three years old I would say that this year it really started to look good since the green giants are basically touching now.
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bradarmi
Original Author
9 years ago
Thanks for the replies. I couldn't help myself with the manure, I had it and thought a "pinch for good luck". Anyway, I'll try to take a photo soon and post - need to resurrect my photobucket account. The new growth is very papery and dry, the old growth is yellowish/green but not every needle falls when the branch is shaken. We will see. As far as "same old spruce" no one in our area has one, everyone has blue Colorado blue spruces (including me). I also have quite a few cultivars of dwarf and variegated conifers, but I am tired of waiting for them to be something as the garden looks so disjointed with these small conifers.

This Norway is right in the front of the property facing the oncoming road and will give us some privacy, but not obstruct the house because of the way its positioned. Hopefully, it can recover. Also btw, I removed the sod around the tree with a 3 foot radius and added mulch several inches thick and away from trunk.
outback63 Dennison
9 years ago
"its either too wet.. or too dry "...

Or one other possibility.

A bad dig and not enough remaining root mass to support above ground foliage.

Who knows how long it sat in root ball form with inadequate care before up potted?

I have seen this scenario many times. Every time it was really dead before you planted it.

"double finally ... there is a phase. just after bud break.. when the growth is so huge.. so fast.. that the plant appears droopy ... and it takes a few weeks for the plant to pump it up" ...

True but you never see needle cast as yours is doing.

Dave
bradarmi
Original Author
9 years ago
So I looked at it closely today and the old needles from the last 2-3 years seem ok for the most part. The new growth is dead and dying and feels like paper. If you shake the stem the needles are falling primarily from the new growth.

I stuck a finger down to the knuckle and the area around the root ball felt moist and damp. When I was out and about it dawned on me perhaps the thing is too moist as the sprinkler system hits it EVERY morning from 5:30-5:45. (Not my sprinkler, the HOA, this is adjacent to common area). So I will lay off supplemental irrigation and see how it does.

I am thinking it can recover....as my Sitka spruce came back almost 100% from this past winter. It was a ball of brown needles, and now its amazing. The same with all the Hannoki false cypress (5 from Sid's going out of business sale). The same with the weeping Norway spruce, it looked terrible, now its making s much growth I have to re-stake it as its leaning and am tired of all sexual jokes from passerby. (After this winter, I have new respect for conifers).

BB Norway spruce dropping needles 3mo later

Comments (5)

Embothrium

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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BB Norway spruce dropping needles 3mo later

Comments (5)

Embothrium

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

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outback63 Dennison

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