'Hoopsi' is very irregular and gaunt as a youngster. As the plant matures, it comes into its own and becomes a very symmetrical, beautiful specimen.

I'm not familiar enough with the others to comment, but I'm pretty sure Ken has all of them and he can give you the "dirt" on the other plants.
Mike

endtz, hoopsi and thomsen ...

PERSONALLY I DOUBT ANY OF US COULD TELL THEM APART .... period ... nurserymen claim they can ... but it is at a botanical level that 30 mins with arrowhead bob.. simply made my head spin ... something about the fasticles.. or cuticles.. or some such thing .. lol .. though i really appreciated him trying to teach me... lol ..

and i dont buy this 'mine is bluer on the interior' than yours is stuff ... its a wax coating .... and its going to last as long as the weather in your garden allows it to last.. heat.. sun.. snow.. freeze.. hard rain.. etc ....

now.. are they zone appropriate for you .. presuming yes ...

then as far as i am concerned... whatever is on the market to buy .. is what you will want ....

if you want to wait 10 years for a SPECIFIC plant name... all the power to you... but if you want one this fall ... take what you can get ...

dont know about salem ....

trust me.. i have about 10 or 12 named varieties of the blue P. pungens .... all starting from one gal second year grafts .. tiny .. now going on 3 to 10 feet.. and the older they get... the more they are all looking the same ... and except for a few conifer geeks.. [probably resin if we could convince him that anything but green is actually a worthy tree] .. lol ... NOBODY can tell them apart ... if you want to get back to me in 20 years.. maybe there will be significant distinctions... but hey .. we will probably all be dead ....

email me personally ...

ken

Endtz and Salem I've never heard about.

'Thomsen' I don't particulary care for the adult shape but the Juvenile into adulthood is great!

Their's one at Rich's Foxwillow Pines that I was very attracted to but I've never seen an adult one, that was called 'Coor's Blue', I believe, or 'Coors'. It was a little irregular as a 4-5' Juvenile.

One I'm found of is 'Edith' / 'Edit' but might only be available from Porterhowse Nursery in OR. He has it listed but I don't know if for sale.

'Baby Blue Eyes' is symmetrical. The specimen I saw was in mostly shade so I can't comment on the coloration.

Hope that helps. Of course 'Hoopsi' is the US's all-time vote getter and for a reason.

Dax

There is also Picea pungens 'Bizon Blue' -see link below

Anything from Bizon Nursery is going to be a good one. Those guys are friends of Chub's and they've put out some pretty incredible Picea pungens.

Dax

I like the 'Bakeri' cultivar. I prefer the Hoopsi over Thompsen. The Bizon blue is really just a perfectly shaped blue spruce and very dense compared to the others mentioned. It is full sized, the Hoopsi mid-sized and the Bakeri, supposedly somewhat narrower and smaller in size.

I posted a few Picea p. cultivars for color comparison.

Dave Picea p.'Hoopsii'
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Picea p. 'Glauca Pendula'
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Picea p. 'Gerald's Dwarf'
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Picea p. 'Globosa'
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Picea p. 'Baby Blue Eyes'
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Picea p. 'Gluca Procumbens'
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Picea p. 'Sester's Dwarf' Not a good representative for good blue color but still an asset to any garden.
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Picea p. 'R.H. Montgomery'
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Picea p. 'St. Mary's Broom'
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Picea p. 'Prostrata Wells'
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Picea p. Donnas Rainbow'
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Contray to what you believe Ken there are some 'Hoopsii' that stay blue to the core but they are in the minority as most seen in nurserys for sale only have blue on new candles in spring then fade to green later on.

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boy am i struggling to express my thoughts .... this is a DEBATE ... not an arguement .. OK??

first .... GREAT PIX DAVE ... thx

second .... i put no faith in any computer pix [other than dave's and our other friends here] regarding conifers around the world.. its just way too easy to manipulate color .... when you dont know the source of the photo ...

third ... i dont see how you can compare a plant grown in the UK .. with a plant grown in Oregon .. with a plant grown down south .. with a plant grown in the great white north ... WHEN YOU ARE DISCUSSING A GLAUCOUS WAXY COATING ....

there are so many variables ... lets start with winter .... most you guys.. dont know what winter really is ... zero degrees ... 40 miles per hour winds... ice storms ... with ice hanging on the plants for weeks ... 1 to 3 feet of snow ... again hanging on the waxy surfaces ... i mean some of our friends walk around in parkas.. in weather which i would consider t-shirt weather.. lol ... it all has an impact on the wax ...

and then consider inclination of the sun .. i am always startled to look at a globe and see how far north Europe is from us ... these peeps... for the most part.. dont know what 95 degrees F with 75% humidity turning into an afternoon thundercloud with hail is all about ... warm that wax.. and then pound it with 2 or 3 inches of rain and hail in 30 minutes.. and wax just wears off .... or dulls ...

and then there is the effect of lack of complete full sun ... and how the plant performs... in regard to the protection of the wax ... in other words.. the same storm noted above.. but the wax is cooler to start with.. and the tree offers some protection ... etc ...

i guess.. to sum it up ... i bet we could all get scion from the exact same plant .... have it grafted .. and all plant it in our respective gardens in full sun .. and we would see ... over the years ... that the COLOR ... will vary .. depending on the variable listed above ... plus, i am sure, many other variables...

it would not surprise me.. if bluespruce and the Oregon peeps have a blue to the core plant... and that i would have a plant that... as the wax ages on a given branch [the interior] ... it dulls ...

the plants would look and perform the same in most every respect... but the waxiness MIGHT differ ...

but the arguement is a bit esoteric .. since 99.9% of the people who are looking for a BLUE picea pungens... dont really need to worry about it all ... they and their audience will never know the difference.. and the tree will be the pride of the neighborhood .. for those who can look up from their feet long enough to see the tree ... and to those people ..... i say buy whichever one you can get your hands on .. and leave the debate ... to those who have nothing better to do .. lol ...

so.. anyone have a budget to get.. graft ... and send duplicate plants all over the world.. and remember to contact us all in 10 years ...

have a great day .. and take time to fondle your conifers...

ken

PS: cultural differences .. even across my 5 acres [500 feet square] ... might dictate that even two plants.. planted in different spots.. may not perform exactly the same.. is some regards ....

BTW, Montgomery and St. Mary - the same photo...

Well, I am no expert on these things, but I can share a few observations about the blue color/wax's persistence. I have Hoopsi and Baby Blue Eyes growing within 20 feet of each other. The fresh color on the new growth is nearly the same--maybe if I really look closely I can imagine the Hoopsi is just a bit bluer. But how the color holds over the next winter or two varies. The Hoopsi holds the color longer and better in the interior of the plant, but some years the Hoopsi holds the blue color much better, other years just slightly better--depending on the weather?

I have seen some blue spruce that have color something like Hoopsi the first summer, but by the next summer the blue is all gone and the needles that are one year old are a pure fresh green--a very striking and beautiful effect, I think. So some trees have a blue wax coating that will be lost rather quickly.

Anyway, my conclusion is that not all waxes (blue colors)are the same in how long they persist, even though they look the same the first summer.

OK for recommendations--if you want the maximum density and don't mind slower growth and ultimate smaller size, get the Baby Blue Eyes. Mine grows about one foot per year. If you want the best and most persistent blue color, but don't mind a tree that is not uniformly very dense, get the Hoopsi. Mine is growing about 18 inches per year, which may be a bit slower than the species, but eventually it will be a good sized tree.

--Spruce

That's why I said: "there are some 'Hoopsii' that stay blue to the core"... with the emphasis on some. I lucked out and found this extra blue to the core in a row of 10-15 with the others presenting themselves in different shades of blue with dark green centers.

Ken says: "this is a debate". I don't even consider it that. Just a general discussion of the many different blue color shades of the same cultivar that seem to be prevalent in the market place. Some of them I regard as imposter's and wouldn't take them home if they were given to me. By the same token the good blue ones are out there to be found. You have to be diligent in your search.

Photo's were taken in auto mode with macro lens in my garden with no editing. To get the best true color I take photo's on cloudy days or early evening with early evening being preferred.

Picea pungens... light blue, medium blue, or deep blue...I love them all. No garden is complete with out all the different shades of blue they can be found in.

Oh...I missed one in my presentation...here it is. Picea p. 'Blue Totem'

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Dave

'Blue Totem' has great contrast.
What a nice pic!

Josh

Can someone tell me the apparent knock on Picea pungens 'Montgomery'? It almost seems as if the cultivar is dismissed (not in this thread) in some circles. Maybe it's too "pedestrian"... too common?

I was at a local garden shop recently and have made many stops there throughout the season. P. p. 'Montgomery' has, at the very least, kept pace with P. p. 'Hoopsii' in intensity of blue coloration of the current year's growth and previous year's growth. Both cultivars have Iseli tags.

Are there cultivars similar to P. p. 'Montgomery' in form and growth habit that are considered superior? If so, I'd like to know what they are. P. p. 'Montgomery' has a place in my garden. I know I've taken this thread in a dwarf direction now. Sorry. "Blueness" prompted this.

Many thanks!

PlantMarker

montgomery is old.. we always fixate on the 'newer and better' ... anyone want to talk about my 1977 dodge?? ... lol ...

part of what i am trying to get across.. is that stock.. shipped from Oregon ... has NEVER spent a winter in your locale ...

if there is any chance to go to an arboretum in your area.. that would be a better gauge of how they grow or develop wax .... in your hood ...

i will snap some pop quiz pics tonight ...

ken

A little back ground on R. H. 'Montgomery' resourced from the ACS database.

Introduction:
(Who was first to intro and when?) 1949 - Original mother plant is in the New York Botanical Gardens. Named after Col. R. H. Montgomery. Developed before 1934 in the Eastern Nursery and there named Picea pungens glauca compacta globosa; this plant was obtained by Col. Montgomery of Coscob, CT USA who in turn donated it to the New York Botanical Garden, New York, USA.

"I know I've taken this thread in a dwarf direction now. Sorry. "Blueness" prompted this"... Actually it was probably me. Sorry.

Dave

Well, I'll say that right now my Hoopsi (yeah, probably from Oregon) is one color, all the way down the branches and to the trunk ... and the new growth was spectacular and quite a bit more significant than my same-sized baby blue eyes. So for me, the Hoopsi definately grows more per year, which makes sense considering how small the baby blue eyes gets according to most sources. Both had nice blue color, but the Hoopsi put on new growth of 4-7" and the baby blue eyes only 1-2" . Mine Hoopsi is also more of steel-blue and the Baby Blue Eyes a tad darker ... but still striking.

Based on what Ken is saying, I'll be interested to see if my 'blue all the way through' Hoopsi stays this way ... after a winter in Z4/5 CO at 6500' . I consider it a 'real winter' and the harsh winds and cold temps are real here, maybe not as bad as the upper midwest. If mine fades, then I'll subscribe to Ken's theory on the Hoopsi's being from milder climates staying all blue. If it stays all blue, then I'll stay with what Dave is saying about "some" having a fully blue characteristic, which is what mine is currently is like. The pictures of Kens Hoopsi looks more like the Thompsen I have seen locally at Lowes, but of course, Kens was WAY nicer!!!

Here is the top of my Hoopsii this spring ... just planted it a month earlier, but it put on some nice new growth ...

I wanted to add something to Dax's comments from 7/27. I recently say the Picea pungens he referenced called 'Coors'. I was told that the parent was found on the Coors brewing company property. I guess due too copyrights the Coors family has asked that the plant be named Picea pungens 'Sea Blue'. You might be able to find it under this name.

It is a beauty for certain. I was so taken by it I got one right away. Of course I would like to see a larger one to see if it retains the color but at 5' it looks brighter than 'Hoopsii'

Bill

If a found plant on a landscaped property then not necessarily a new introduction. It is known with certainty to have arisen there, as in being a seedling that popped up there, or was planted as an unnamed blue seedling?

Here's that photo Bill:

'Sea Blue'/ 'Coor's' etc -
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Dax

I am not completely certain how the plant came to be on the Coors property. I'm not even certain what the Coors property is like. I'll see if I can get more information. Being in Colorado it is very possible that it could be a random seedling. We try to find out.

Dax, I have some pictures of the plant as well from about 3 weeks ago. I also have a close-up of the foliage. I need to setup a way for you to see them though. I'll see what I can do. May be easiest just ot post thm in the database.

Bill

Bill

To be honest, that Coors property in Golden really doesn't have many if any trees on it. There is a large butte surrounding it that they may own, but it is a treeless plateau . Now perhaps they own some land up in the mtns somewhere ... thats possible, but blue spruce isn't the predominate species in most places in Colorado that I've seen within 2 hours of Denver.

side note: My parents have a tree in front of their house (in Boulder) which was apparently taken from the mtns (naughty!) in the mid 70's and this little 2' tree has slowed grown to maybe 15-18' tall now and is absolutely a knock-out, IMHO. I need to post pics for help identifying it. It grows really slow and is some kind of narrow spruce ... but what a beauty it is today. Its probably only 5-6 in diameter at the base.