Some further notes about what I do: I seeded in the Fall. I cut to a height of 3.5 - 4 1/8 inches depending on how long its gotten. I try not to cut off more than 1/3 of the grass height, so that means I wait until it is about 5-6.5 inches tall to cut. I water deeply to encourage deep root growth. I can't really plant more trees in this area. You can actually see the area where the existing trees don't quite cover the grass, because there are fairly well defined transition lines from green to yellow where there is no shade. I just figured the grass should be able to make it 5-6 days without turning to straw. Some of the areas are definitely dead bare earth...not just dormant. The area isn't used much for anything, but I don't want clover. So here's what I'm thinking: 1. I know the soil under the grass is crap. Rocky hard stuff. Would regular application of corn meal (which I still need to find in my area) act to enrich and soften the underlying soil so that the roots can grow deeper? 2. My soil analysis said I was way too acidic. I've not been able to apply lime to these areas as I always seem to be renovating them when its time to lime. Could high acidity affect drought tolerance? 3. Will repeated overseeding and deep watering eventually get the grass established enough to make it through the summer? 4. Would that Scotts seed work? How does KBG work in extreme sun?

>I'd prefer Felicia to Cornelia since Felicia, I've heard, has stronger scent? or is that not true? I have a couple Felicias that are babies now. (like I said in my previous... I'm not sure if they're doing well or not. They may just be young?) Hi Aimee, Rogue Valley lists them both with three "f's" out of a possible four for degree of fragrance. Francesca is for sure a beautiful rose, so good luck with it! If you ever do consider Cornelia too, well, I've read a few comments that its fragrance wafts on the breeze. >Both Kathleen and Mutabilis (which I guess are similar to Bermuda's Kathleen) are listed as shade tolerant... Neither one makes it to the ARE shade tolerant list, though they do sell both. (The person running that nursery is extraordinarily knowledgeable so I'd take his advice over the opinions of others.) >I'm open to Darlow's Enigma, too. I want something that does WELL there... otherwise I might want to try a shrub or something more tolerant? I've seen so many gorgeous pictures of this very fragrant rose that at one time I wanted it too. But it was a turnoff to discover that it is supposed to be unusually thorny. >I really like camellias too. Mary, that was one of my other ideas. So if the roses won't do well, I'd rather go with something that will do better. Your roses are probably going to do fine, with the right selections, I'd guess. On the other hand, with more thought as to the whole picture, you might want a little greater diversity in the front yard and some things with a bit of a heavier shinier leaf look to them. Two books to help you form your own landscaping ideas: House and Garden Book of Country Gardens," by Charles Quest-Ritson, and Landscape with Roses" by Jeff Cox. Consider Japanese maples if you end up looking for more trees. I never tire of looking at ours (three kinds here). >I have a small camellia roughly in that spot now, it's getting a little bit of burning on the leaves, but overall seems happy, so I'm guessing as it gains maturity, it will be able to tolerate sun better. I don't think you ought to generalize the experience for a single camellia (japonica?) to all the many others you might consider for the same spot. Some varieties aren't too picky about how much sun and sun protection they have, and some are very picky. The variety in that spot is just probably one of the pickier ones and is wishing it were in a slightly shadier spot or were getting better watering. >Mary, how do you mean "for the front walk"? sorry, I can't figure out which part you mean exactly., do you mean along the sidewalk coming from the front door, on both sides...? (before it does a right angle?) Edging each side with shishigashiras would work well for the entire distance, I'd guess. >I'm just having trouble with the part that's right up next to the front of the porch (the foundation) There are an unending number of potential choices and combinations, all of which would make a nice inviting entrance for your house. It all depends on what you personally like best. If it were my house, I'd opt for some Bonanza camellias spanning the front next to the porch, with perhaps a rose climbing the two pillars where you have two MAC's planted now. >I'm seriously considering putting a tea (probably Archduke Charles) in the front middle area. I think that one is a china, but it should still do quite well in your climate. Gorgeous! If you're hoping for the evergreen quality that many of the tea roses have you'd just have to ask locally about that. >I also was thinking about pillaring a rose, like you said. but I'm on the fence. It would be great if one of the roses already on my short list was one that could be pillared. In seeing some more pictures now, I'd suggest the pillar for a larger planting area than what you have right in the front. The height of your climbers next to the porch might be enough for that area; too many focal points amounts to not having any. A pillar might make a really nice focal point in your side yard though. I'm not sure which roses are on your short list-- I might not have seen that list anywhere. Anyway, it wouldn't hurt to post them all again in a very organized fashion. Ideally, include a division as to front yard/side yard/back yard plant intentions, assuming you've taken the ideas that far. It also would be very helpful to actually make it into a much longer list, listing first the names of the roses you've already purchased/planted in those yard areas, along with a dotted line to separate the ones not yet bought but that you're considering for future purchase in those same particular yard areas--with all three yard areas totally separated by lots of space and double dotted lines. You are doing enough stuff all at once there that it is easily confusing to try to recall everything you might have mentioned somewhere sometime in different posts now, and this is the very most basic information that anyone wanting to offer suggestions needs to have. There's also a benefit to forcing yourself to organize your own information: it's not just a benefit to your readers, but you yourself can do a better thinking job with the information, once you've organized it enough to have it ready at your fingertips. Best wishes, Mary Here is a link that might be useful: A shade-tolerant rose resource

I, too, am a planted native of Western WA. Throughout my childhood and youth, I foraged for berries all over Western WA. Now, in my own garden, although the majority of my plants are non-native, I have a lot of native plants interspersed here and there, that have volunteered and that I have nurtured, including both red and evergreen huckleberry and oregon grape, trilliums, etc. I have had all the berry plants growing in everything from complete shade to lots of sun. From my berry picking days, to my own plants, I can tell you that, even though they will grow in the shaded understory of the forest, the plants that produce the most berries, by far, are the ones that get more sun, and the more the better. This holds true for the flowering currents. As a berry picker, you always try to find a good thicket at the edge of the woods, with an eastern exposure. They really like several hours of morning sun. Sun exposure between 2 and 4 pm can kill young plants, but once established they can take that as well, if watered properly. I have a volunteer evergreen huckleberry growing out of a log in my back yard, in full sun, that is happy as can be. It gets enough water, because it's near a hardy fuchsia. A caution on fireweed (if that is what it really is). I have lived in Alaska, also, where it could almost be the state flower. It is a root runner and can be quite invasive, especially here in WA, where it doesn't get the winter cold to keep it in check. Salal, also a native, is also a root runner, but it is very hard to get established, if not growing there naturally. I have known people, whose yards are backed by a large forested area, that absolutely hate it. Regarding soil....all our native plants do like a highly organic, slightly acid soil. I have extremely light, sandy soil, which dries out very fast in the summer. My success with the natives has come from giving them a good, deep mulch of medium shredded bark, with fines in it. In the years I don't mulch I can really tell they are not happy. Good luck!

Hi everyone Ive been enjoying reading the threads and am thrilled at the opportunity for a plant swap! Charlene and Skybird, thanks for including me. I was hoping to attend and, due to some ongoing health challenges with high variation in energy levels (and a recent big dip), wont know if I can make it until the last minute. In the meantime, if I am able to pot / dig things up and make it down there, I look forward to bringing these offerings. Ive also listed some things I am fantasizing about :-). Hoping to bring: - bearded iris lavender (does anyone want any?) - sweet woodruff / candy tuft - brunnera (Nancy Ill have some for you) - Zauchneria (it is probably garrettii Orange Carpet approx 8-12 inches high, spreading habit Skybird, Ill put your name on some) - rudbekia triloba (Bonnie these or the coreopsis might fit what you want?) - coreopsis lanceolata (double sunburst 36" x 24") - knautia macedonica (color: burgundy wine) - California poppy seedlings - Geranium indoor plant, red: cuttings I'll also bring - A dogwood tree, rootbound, seeking a home; white-flowering Looking for: - Anemone sylvestris (spring blooming, wide-petaled; Skybird, thanks for putting my name on soooo many!!) - hymenoxys (thrifty leaf perky sue) - penstemons (rocky mountain) - Snow-in summer - Hostas - Dwarf iris deep purples or other dark colors - Veronicas, thymes and other ground covers for flagstone; - Aubrieta / rock cress (dark purples and fuscia) - evening primrose speciosa (the happily spreading pink kind - Skybird, how do you get images in your postings? mine don't seem to paste in)