Coastal isn't hardy in zone 5.

Interior is winter-hardy, but is not well adapted to summer humidity, and tends to suffer badly from needlecast diseases in humid eastern US.

Resin

aw .. come on mikey .... which is which ....

i figured the pacific version of the north atlantic drift made the coastal areas more temperate .... and the interior/mountain version was the cooler version ..

but which latin names go with which zone ...

or more simply.. which is menziesii .... and what is the alternative .... you are messing with me arent you ;) ??? ... lol....

thanks... ken

PS: when you speak of summer humidity .. are you ruling out summer heat .... what would be your guess on the thresholds for both ....

Ken

You could try pseudotsuga japonica it might grow in Z5
also takes summer heat give it a go but not an easy plant
to find but its a nice conifer.

I believe menziesii is located both on the coast and in the mountains. I'm trying a dwarf (mini?) P. m. 'Dandy Doug' that is said to have been found in Colorado. I put it where it gets morning and late afternoon shade. Time will tell.

tj

Hi Ken,

Coastal: Pseudotsuga menziesii subsp. menziesii. Tree to 60-90m tall; foliage strongly aromatic, green. Bark thick, red-brown to yellow-brown, deeply fissured on old trees.

Interior: Pseudotsuga menziesii subsp. glauca. Tree to 20-50m tall; foliage not strongly aromatic, grey-green to blue-green. Bark grey-brown to purplish-brown, only shallowly fissured even on old trees.

Resin

Well that may explain the difference in my 2 Pseudotsugas. One (P.M. Dusek's WB) has green needles and is very aromatic, the other (P.M. Fletcherii) has the grey-green needles and is not very aromatic. The first one suffered severe winter burn over the entire plant, but is now pushing new growth. The latter cruised through winter just fine.
Useful info for future purchases. Thanks Resin!
Shannon

Thanks Resin, per usual, very useful info. Looking through Stanley's web site it looks like there is every shade of green available from plants found throughout the Rockies, so color alone wont determine the subsp. It's good to have the other identifying features.

tj

Ken:

I am not an expert here, but I may know a little that may be helpful.

First, as Resin says, the coastal strain will not be hardy in Michigan.

Second, as for the interior or mountain strain, there is a lot of variability here--perhaps it would be more proper if the so called mountain or interior strain were divided up into at least two or three significantly different strains. Sorry, I can offer any specific information about what I think may be significant "sub-strains."

In Michigan, as a forestry student there, I took special note of Douglas fir. As of that time, 1958, many Douglas fir did just fine there--no sign of any disease. At my timberland in Western MD (Z5) I have planted a number of Douglas fir trees and they seem to do just fine there. But I don't know of any that are 70 years old or more. I think that is because they were not planted there that long ago.

As for other parts of the Eastern US, which Resin may be referring to, such as here in Northern VA (Z6) and nearby west Virginia, they succumb to some kind of disease--I have never took the time to determine just what it is because they seem so completely hopeless.

But there is one remarkable exception--on the grounds of the Oatlands Plantation outside Leesburg, VA (a historic house and garden open to the public) there is one absolutely magnificent Dougles fir growing. This tree may be from a seed source different from the most commonly planted Douglas fir trees in this area. To describe this tree in a very general way, it is probably about 80 years old or more and maybe something like 75 feet tall. It is very "lush" in its foliage and does not have any outstanding kind of blue color that I remember (I haven't seen the tree for three or four years).

So, although Douglas fir usually fail here in VA, (sometimes only after 15 years or so) there may be a strain that could do very well. And as for Michigan--I would go ahead and plant some. But, of course, you can see what you can find growing in your area, and perhaps contact Mich State U. and see what they can tell you.

The trees offered by Musser and other growers in PA are undoubtedly one or more of the interior or mountain strains.

--Spruce

Ken, The interior species, the hardy one always looks like crud here in Illinois. Both are useless. Every now and then a dwarf looks good, but for the most part don't even consider to plant the large upright tree seedlings (or cultivars).

Dax

You may wish to stick with proven cultivars from known genetic lines. Species trees from known seed sources can be quite variable in their response to conditions, and individuals from unknown seed sources would be very chancy. The range of both subspecies (really groups of subspecies) extend from Mexico to Canada so I wouldn't go on that alone.

However, if you have lots of room, you could run your selection trial.

Though Dax reports poor performance of Doug Trees in his N. Illinois area, just two hundred miles north of him, we do have some decent ones around here. Every now and then you'll see a dog that doesn't look like it'll ever be happy, but there are quite a few that have become nice decent sized trees. All appear to be the interior type. Knowing what I do of your site conditions and your experience with conifers, it seems reasonable to me to expect you may well succeed with this tree.

+oM

Ken, they look real good until they mature. Then the trees become 'patchy' here. You'd be planting a rocky mountain strain such as an Idaho strain but still as I see and Resin sees too, it's not a winner. You're wasting space in my honest opinion.

That's only opinion of course with everything to be considered.

Regards,

Dax

Hi Pasadena,

"The range of both subspecies (really groups of subspecies)"

Coastal DF is fairly uniform, without much variation within the taxon.

Interior DF is divided into two groups, in the northern Rockies ('Grey' DF; var. caesia) and the southern Rockies to northernmost Mexico ('Blue' DF; var. glauca). The boundary between them is at about 44°N, along the Snake River across NW Wyoming and southern Idaho.

DF in central & southern Mexico is genetically distinct (coastal and interior are closer to each other, than either is to Mexican), so it is best treated as a distinct species Ps. lindleyana (syn. Ps. macrolepis, Ps. guinieri). It is also quite distinct in appearance, too.

Ref.: Li, P. & Adams, W. T. (1989). Rangewide patterns of allozyme variation in Douglas-fir. Canad. J. Forest Res. 19: 149-161.

Resin

Any pictures of Mexican douglas fir?

The only photo of Ps. lindleyana I've seen on the web is this one, at El Chico, Hidalgo. It shows well the rather distinctive, thinly-foliaged crown with slender shoots (caused by the needles pointing forward along the shoots, not spreading out widely as in Ps. menziesii), and the thin, grey bark.

Not actually a terribly attractive tree - Ps. menziesii is much nicer!

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:703751}}

Hi Resin

That link dosn't work maybe my computer

Ken, a cultivar you can't go wrong with is:
Pseudotsuga menziesii 'Wycoff's Big Blue' and there's a broom from it too.

Chub Harper in the town right next to me had a huge one. Check out the ACS Database.

Dax

Some coastal trees are blue, often in a cluster as though there is an environmental cause - or maybe it is related seedlings growing near one another.

Not grayish or silvery like the interior trees, rather what might perhaps be described as a sort of aqueous blue.

I have a rather large Coastal one in my garden. ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Doug Fir

>I have a rather large Coastal one in my garden. ;-)Botann, is that picnic table for real? Most picnic tables are about 5' in length. If that's the case, your tree looks to be 8'+ in diameter! It must have somehow escaped logging efforts 100 years back.

Have you measured the tree? I'm curious as to it's size.:o

Actually the picnic table predates the fir. That's why it appears to have been pushed to the side by the tree, the conifer sprouted in the shade of the table.

Some of these retired guys are real old.

The picture was taken to fool the eye. The picnic table is for little kids. Grandkids in my case. Great great great great grandkids, eh Ron?
I live in a mfg home. The gutters are 3/4 normal size to make the rest appear larger....A sales trick. I wouldn't leave you guys hanging for too long.
{{gwi:703754}}

Bboy & Botann--that's hilarious! I take it you know each other.

We've never seen each other except online. We live on opposite ends of Seattle. Someday maybe.

Here's another Pseudotsuga menziesii growing down over the bluff behind the house. My friend in the above picture with a beer in his hand is climbing it and training the 'kid' to be a climber. My friend is 270 lbs and no doughboy. The kid is now climbing trees for a living. That was his first!

{{gwi:703756}}

The dog is wondering why it didn't get a beer, too.

Heh, I knew it! The cones on the ground looked too big also.

I don't think those came from the dog.

Is that as dangerous as it looks? Just a hunch on my part, but when drinking beer AND climbing trees the order you do them is probably an important consideration. ;)

A "basic" consideration? (Actually, I thought of that too).

frankly i have never met a tree guy who i was sure was ever sober... lol .... the lubrication might be a prerequisite...

ken