I talked with a rep from Bayer specifically about imidacloprid and fruit trees. He recommended that as long as the product was labeled for fruit trees, it would be safe to consume the fruit. He also said that the tree itself is an excellent filter and has blocks where the branches come out of the trunk and also in the stem of the fruit that block the imidaclioprid from the fruit itself and testing has found no imidacloprid in the fruits. Take that info with a grain of salt, but I have no problem using it in my fruit trees and eating the fruit.

I use imidacloprid 3 times per year on all my field Meyers; and we export to some of the most ecologically sensitive markets in the world. The residual percentage in the fruit is virtually undetectable; and the major benefit of systemics like imidacloprid is it does not harm the beneficials; it kills only those insects that chew on or suck on the leaves. Our groves have birds nests throughout; and wasp nests as well; we love wasps; they are a major beneficial and they never sting the workers.

Thanks for the reminder. Time to start mixing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid_effects_on_bees

The EPA finally admitted it harms bees.

bayer revised its recommendations because of it.

and it doesn't matter if the mite is the killer, if the mite can only do so much damage to the colony when it's been weakened by the neo-nics. We can't control the mite, we can control the neo-nics.

how about people stop obsessing over every fruit, every leaf, every ounce of yeild and respect the insect that provides the pollination we need to survive.

I would like to read something that backs that up please.

Straight from the epa

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=EPA-HQ-OPP-2008-0844-0140

Harvard reputable enough?

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/colony-collapse-disorder-pesticide/

Again who cares if it's only one of the causes if it's the only one that we can stop and it's vital to the collapse. No neo nics no collapse.

How about one saying that bees that escape the exposure are bypassing food sources in order to do so and are weaker because of it. Also with much higher levels of the mite.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0118748

There is always going to be opinions and research favoring each side of the spectrum. I do not use imadicloprid when my trees are flowering. I do however use it after my tree has set fruit and during the warm summer months when there is no possible way for my usage to effect bees in any way because my trees don't have flowers. I need to and feel it is my duty as a responsible Southern California citrus grower to use it to try and at least slow the spread of ACP and their devastation disease HLB. I appreciate everyone's opinion on this forum and would hope that we can all respect eachother enough to be cordial with one another when we discuss these serious topics. We are all here to help one another and spread good advice to those less knowledgeable or new to citrus growing.

Evan

Evan, you assume that your tree has sufficiently cleared itself of imadicloprid before it has flowered but how do you know that?

It has a period of activity, I belive 3 months.

evan is a responsible sprayer. Thank-you Evan.

on a positive note gmo citrus trials have gone large scale. The spinach gene one. So no worry about genes that we are not already eating.

My daughters and I wrote letters governor to pass this bill and it did. Anecdotally, I have seen tremendous losses over my last seven years as a beekeeper...I can't pinpoint to a specific cause of course...

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/04/08/3767856/maryland-passes-bee-bill/

Nice. Consumers don't need that crap and too many of them apply it wrong.

Vladimir, I do not apply after October or before March, that's 5-6 months without the chemical. If it was effecting bees in my yard I would know. My yard is absolutely loaded with them in the Spring, I even had a swarm stop and live in my grapefruit tree for about 2 weeks while they found a new location for their hive.

Evan

The changes are not always obvious. One of the effects is a weakening of bees, in particular this can affect the queen. I think all but one of every colony loss I've had over the last seven years was due to queen failure. After learning a bit more about the effects of these pesticides, I realized that the queen weakness may have been partly due to the exposure.

Evan, I am glad that you are making an effort at limiting pesticide export to pollinators. However, your yard being "absolutely loaded with them" is a subjective observation not a quantitative one. Also, I doubt that swarms pay any attention to pesticides when they look for a temporary stop.

And since we are talking about colony collapse, I believe that a significant contributing factor to the increase in lost colonies is the increase in inexperienced bee keepers who do not know what they are doing.

Research has shown that bees do try to avoid pesticide laced areas. Read my previous links.

And bee keepers have nothing, I repeat nothing to due with wild hives dying.

Vlad, I should have clarified my statement, they are in my yard not to visit my citrus trees but my other native desert trees and flowering plants that do not get treated with any pesticides at all. My desert natives bloom profusely throughout the spring and summer and that is what draws the bees mostly.

Evan thanks for the clarification. Pip, thanks for the correction.

Vladimir, what makes you think the beekeepers experience has anything to do with the collapse? I've never heard that before, although it's an interesting thought. I can tell you that even when I was starting out, my losses were due to queen failure, which I have no control over. Friends that I've mentored have had similar experiences. What usually happens with new beekeepers is that the queen dies and they don't notice until the hive is basically dead. An experienced beekeeper knows what to look for and can correct the problem before the entire hive is a disaster....

Oh, and Happy Father's Day to all you citrus-loving dads!!

I had to stop going to my local beekeeper club meetings because every time it ended I left absolutely raging because the provincial advisor and the old timer commercial guys that basically run the club advocate for prophylactic use of pesticides, with no education as to the whys, nor any attention given to alternative measures. So basically every beekeeper left those meetings prepared to slap on any and all prophylactic treatments with no real understanding of the reasons or possible side effects.

And as we know from our human problem with antibiotic resistant super bugs, it's our fault for abusing those drugs as they create resistance.

I took a provincial bee keeping course when I got started with bees so I could learn both sides of the treatment argument and make my own mind up to act responsibly. We also had a lab day where we could see samples of Infected frames so we could identify potential disease in our own hives.

My personal approach is to use no treatments, but do routine hive inspections to monitor for disease. I burn frames and bees immediately if I see something i don't like, which has only happened once. I don't want the poor genetics if they can't hack it, and I don't think nurturing sick bees along is worth it at all.

Pip you're completely on point with the bee data, nice work!

So actually I think bee keepers do have something to do with wild hives dying. Beekeeper help create resistant varroa mite through prophylactic use and or improperly applied pesticides and their associated diseases which then go on to attack wild hives who can't cope as well with the stronger pressure.

Then there's the other problem with uneducated bee keepers, the ones who want to go hippie style super natural and "let the bees just be bees". These types don't do inspections and then may miss signs of sickness and opportunities to kill the colony before they can spread it.

Beekeepers I know, myself included, do not treat prophylactically but instead treat only when varroa mites are present.

I question that because varroa are always present in some number. I think our only way out of this mess is to breed better stock. Either stock that is naturally resistant or has the "hygienic behavior" that scientists are currently breeding for.

I have had bees here for 3 years and 2 years before that in my last province. I have had present varroa my entire time, but I let my bees manage it and if any hive wasn't managing it properly then I offed them and did a split from a thriving hive.

If varroa treatments worked then we would have no mites. The same can be said for the systemic this thread is about. Luckily bees regenerate faster than citrus.

Beekeepers arnt going and spraying pesticides or spraying wild hives so in my opinion it's a stretch to blame bee keepers. I'll even go further and say it's irresponsible farmers trying to deflect the blame off of them. It's not the plants it's the bees I swear.

well countries without neonics but with the mite don't have the problems countries with both have. How long are we going to pretend it's a coincidence?

Sorry I'm very passionate about this subject :).

You're right that it's to a lesser extent that beekeepers contribute to wild bees losses. Maybe its more that I think hobbyists are missing a huge opportunity to work on genetic stock improvements. We have the luxury of beekeeping for fun and not for our livelihoods so why not do it to the highest standard possible? Look at the lengths we go for our trees lol!

Now that I live in the honey producing capital of North America I do blame the commercial guys big time. You should hear their hubris in the bee club meetings. Literally no interest in learning about new data or trying a more progressive approach.

Don't even get me started on the feeding sugar water topic.

Please don't feed sugar water.

Well exactly that's what I mean! But almost everybody does!

Well they are idiots. Profit before health will just lead to death and loss.

Yes, quite a bit of controversy on this subject. Applying imid. in mid June seems like it will work well in So. Cal. at least in my microclimate, especially for the citrus leaf miners as they are usually active July to October/November. Will try to implement not applying imid. when the trees are in bloom as Evan does. Not as easy as it sounds though when you have a variety of different citrus trees that bloom twice per year and some that are ever bearing.

I agree, but I do think that the overuse of treatments can and probably has bred stronger, resistant mites. We don't need to spray the wild hives for this damage to occur. Here in the US, from what I hear from some very knowledgeable beekeepers, there are very few feral hives left. They are not capable of dealing with the varoa mites. Whether that has occurred because they are a relatively new threat or because of resistant mites, I don't know. What I have thought for a long time is that the overproduction/overbreeding of queens in certain areas (in my case, ALL of my neighbors who keep bees and myself get our bees and queens from Georgia). There are huge apiaries down there and I don't see how they can keep up the genetic diversity. I have NEVER had a hive succeed in creating a queen either from a supercedure or from a swarm - they do make one, but she lasts a few months at best. I don't know why, but I suspect that it is because the diversity of drones around here is non-existent. I am also forced to order from Georgia. I will not order from Florida or Texas because I worry about Africanized strands.

I have a policy of never engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Having said that, here is an interesting tidbit... Northern California bee keepers years ago discovered that a menthol cough drop placed inside the hive would cause the Varroa mite to drop off the bee and abandon the hive. Why were they not allowed to use it, you might ask... turns out menthol is not registered for bees!!! A lot of the best beekeepers i knew used it anyway.

You mistake the person without wits being me. Your a liar and fraud. You ship pesticide laced fruit and claim it's not. Your a scam artist. It's sad the people who hide behind the bible the most are the biggest scammers. I'm ashamed you claim to be a fellow Christian. Hopefully your not a Catholic and your one of those rip off denominations founded on lies.

you know this man actually claims that his Meyers are superior genetically to everyone else's? When they are all exact clones of the same tree from Dillon of four winds nursery, the source of all trizesta free Meyer budwood.

I rest my case.

Come on John post about how your Meyer is superior genetically. You've said it before and I know others have seen the posts.

tell us how you spray yet your fruit has no pesticides, heck I don't even mind the pesticide. Why lie? I mean where does it go when you spray every 3 months yet lemons don't develop that fast. Is it magic?

quote your bible verses pretending to be high and mighty while you back handed insult. At least I have the balls to do it in plain sight.

Word to the wise, if you care about your kids, the future of the planet, your fellow human, you will sacrifice a portion of your harvest or the beauty of your trees and not the pollenating insect responsible for providing 1/3 of all food eaten on this planet.

We can not afford to loose that much food with the amount of people starving already. That's what real Christians would do. That's what people who truely care about the planet would do. Help stop the massive die off of the single most important insect humans have ever had a relationship with. No other insect has given us as much and no other insect could take its place. And we are not even talking about honey, just pollenation.

I hope others realize that as much as global warming is talked about this threat is significantly more harmful, significantly more pressing, and significantly easier to fix immediately.

Just for grins here's a cupla facts... not hyperbole. " pollenating insect responsible for providing 1/3 of all food eaten on this planet" Really?? 80% of the food we eat comes from 12 plants, 9 of which are grasses; and require no pollination at all. The other 3 (nuts, soybeans, and potatoes) require little if any pollination; and where needed can be accomplished by wind, other insects,etc.

And that's a FACT! Another somewhat personal fact... I love honey; but I don't like bees much; they make seeds in my lemons; and they sting my workers.

No more on this topic from me.

John that's not very nice and I happen to completely agree with Pip on this one so I guess I am unarmed as well. Sigh.

Yes I have heard that about the menthol treatments but I don't know if there is any data to back the anecdotal claims up. It would be nice though.

Well aren't even the experts starting to acknowledge that greening will never be eradicated, at best it can be managed and hopefully contained? So people are going to have to get used to it and only the strongest trees will make it hopefully. I understand commercial growers must be very worried.

Laura yes lack of genetic diversity in queen stock in your area would be a major problem! I'm shocked you haven't had any supercedures or splits take!! That definitely says something. I run like 80% success I would say.

Maybe you could try and just buy a different queen from somewhere. A lot of the colleges run very progressive queen rearing programs.

Hobby,

"John that's not very nice"... I don't know what facts (inconvenient or other) have to do with "nice"; but is there anyone here who does not already know that I am on a quest to become the first internationally certified curmudgeion on the planet? About the "data" to back up the menthol "claim"... it is illegal; so much like marijuana, it is also illegal to do research on it. I have a lot of first hand experience... okay second hand; because I don't like bees... that cough drop treatment works... Testimony??? Unlikely, as it is "illegal"

Ok well as long as you are aware that you are probably well on your path to your goal we are good lol. I do know you and Pip like to banter shall we say. :)

I don't recall mentioning pip's or any one else's name here... check the messages.