Photos would make it much easier to venture a guess.

Patty S.

I am constantly amazed that people who don't know what is the problem by looking at it, assume that we wizards can somehow know what it is WITHOUT looking at it!!

Sorry, I had a photo attached to my first post, but it apparently got dropped.

It looks to be fungal; I would discard the fruit and treat the plant with Bayer Silvacur... a topically and systemically active fungicide applied twice per year.
Your plant also looks starved for food; you should be feeding it maybe 4 times per year with a good citrus fertilizer according to label directions. I would recommend Vigoro Citrus and Avocado fert.

Eesh.

I have a few more questions, if you don't mind:

I'm bringing it into either the garage or the house, assuming I can find a place indoors that my cat can't reach it. I want to repot it into a 16-18" pot (it's in a 12" pot now). Should I wait until spring to repot?

Is it ok to fertilize before bringing it in for the winter? Last winter, I got a flush of leaves while it was inside (which my cat proceeded to eat).

Currently, I've got the plant in Miracle Grow Cactus, Palm, and Citrus soil and fertilize it every 6 weeks or so with MG Azalea, Camellia, and Rhododendron plant food. I water when the soil seems dry down to 2-3 inches. The plant sits on the south-facing porch of my house in NE Mississippi Zone 7.

Silvacur, if even available in the US for commercial growers, would not be something that the hobby grower of one containerized plant could buy. John needs to remember that he grows his citrus in a country with relaxed pesticide regulations. He also needs to remember that chemicals available to him as a commercial grower may not be (available) to homeowners. Thank goodness.

Birdman, I also suspect a fungal or bacterial disorder. If you have a good extension office in your county, you might be able visit with them with pictures and let them forward those pictures to agencies in citrus growing states.

The leaves indicate that your plant is not getting something it needs. It might be that you simply need to add a bit of vinegar to your tap water when you water. Suggested amount is around 2-3 tablespoons per gallon of water.

No way to the vinegar! If you suspect you have a PH problem, test your water first.(The images do not support a PH problem, they indicate a lack of N and/or micro nutrients) Do not add vinegar unless your PH is known to be above 7.

First thing is Silvacur is not a pesticide; and while some chemicals are relatively easier to get here in Guatemala; the regulations of the European Union, where we will be exporting our fruit is more restrictive than the US.

As for field production versus recommendations to garden growers, I would never recommend something that I would not use myself for my garden trees.

Birdman, I would use vinegar, at least give it a shot, as Rhizo directed, since it will not harm your plants, but if anything unlock all the nutrients tied up in your mix every time you use a water solution with a lower pH.

As you stated, you have fertilized and especially with a fertilizer with a high N content.
Obviously something is stopping your tree from assimilating that and other nutrients which is almost always tied to a water solution with a higher pH than what our trees like or other factors.

By the way, I know that 'Rhizo' would never toot her horn here on the knowledge and science behind trees and pests, in what makes them tick and the know how's, but if you read her profile, which is something I make a habit of doing here, you might think twice before you question her well founded generous and free time she gives here.:-)

She has not disappointed me yet after all these years here.

Mike

Birdman, this definitely looks fungal in nature, due to the roundness of the lesions. Definitely remove the fruits, but don't discard them. Have your local extension agent take a look to help you determine what might be going on. You don't mention where you live in your "Zone" field (see my example), just that it's cold, now :-) When you see a container citrus really struggling, it's best to remove the fruit, so the tree can help to improve its canopy and get well, instead of trying to use up all its energy trying to produce fruit. So, even though it's tempting to try to keep fruit on a small tree, only do so if the tree is lush and healthy. Sounds like this was not the case for your little tree.

It does look very chlorotic, but I am suspecting, based on your reporting that you've been fertilizing it, as well what I'm seeing on your fruit, is you may be dealing with Phytophthora, both in your soil, which is damaging your roots, and causing this overall decline and chlorotic appearance, as well as the spots you're seeing on your fruits. I've included a nice link for your review, and I would suggest you take a look at Brown Rot. Your treatment options first would be to re-pot right away with new soil. Be sure you use a very well-draining potting medium, and don't use soil from your backyard (which is where you may have picked up this organism.) If you search the forum for "511", you'll find lots of great messages about how to put together this excellent container potting medium. Bookmark that message so you have it to go back to. Then treat with Agri-Fos (foliage application). Agri-Fos is Phosphorus Acid, and very safe and effective against Phytophthora.

When you see a struggling tree pushing out more blossoms, that can be a tree that feels it's in the death throes, and attempting to replicate itself by making a last-ditch effort to produce fruit. So, if those blossoms set fruit, go ahead and remove those little fruits so you tree can revive itself, and put its efforts into recovery and canopy growth. You must have that first, to support fruit production.

Once you see some recovery, go ahead and fertilize your tree. Many of the container citrus folks on this forum (MeyerMike, for example), like to use DynaGro, Foliage Pro, which is an excellent product. You can also consider using a time-release product, and I would recommend Osmocote Plus (the key is "Plus", as this particular Osmocote formulation has a very good NPK ratio PLUS all the micros). I use both with excellent results for my container citrus. Here is an example of a tree that I revived in a reasonably short period of time, about maybe 10 months:

Ortanique before:
{{gwi:587863}}

Ortanique after about 5 months of tlc (repotted due to Phytophthora infection):
{{gwi:587864}}

Ortanique today (I'm actually cutting back on the fertilizer, there IS such a thing as too much canopy, lol!):
{{gwi:637929}}

Now, as far as acidifying your tap water. I do first recommend checking the pH of your tap water. If you're on municipal water, that's pretty easy to do. Just check your municipal water district's water report. Find out exactly what the pH of your water is. My municipal water is about 7. Most muni water districts try to get to 7 if possible (but not all do, so worth checking out, depending upon where you live in the country). I don't add vinegar to my water, as I don't need to. If you're going to check the pH yourself, buy a high quality pH meter. The cheap ones are notoriously inaccurate. You're much better off trusting your municipal water district's report, that a $40 pH meter bought off of Amazon.com. No need to acidify your water if your tap water is around 7 or below.

So, bottom line - get to a definitive diagnosis. Treat appropriately with the least offensive treatment option (Intergrated Pest Management - IPM - approach), and then allow your tree to revive itself before you allow it to set fruit. It must have the canopy to support fruit production.

And lastly, a totally NON citrus photo for Mike and Rhizo, to bring a little cheer to their day, especially for Mike, after getting battered by Hurricane Sandy. This very special hybrid Hibiscus is called, "Black Dreams" (Mike, if you peek behind the flower, you'll see just a wee corner of one of my Jade "Hummel Sunset" plants. Waiting for it to get a bit bigger, and you'll get a snipping!):
{{gwi:637930}}

Patty S.

Here is a link that might be useful: UC IPM: Identifying Diseases & Disorders of Fruit

A pesticide is a substance used to kill pests. An insecticide is a pesticide used to kill insects. A fungicide is a pesticide used to control fungal disorders. An herbicide is a pesticide used to control weeds. A rodenticide is a pesticide used to control rodents. A miticide is a pesticide used to control mites. And on and on. I used the term exactly as I meant...to encompass the "cides " as a whole.

John, I get the impression that you think I was being critical. Not so. But you may not realize that there are lots of pesticides that are available to a commercial grower such as yourself that are not legally available to homeowners. Either the label itself is restricted or the chemical is categorized as a 'Restricted Use ' chemical. There are many such pesticides (insecticides and fungicides) in fruit culture. Don't go into testosterone toxicity again. :-)

As far as the vinegar goes, ryan, it's not going to do the plant any harm to water with a slightly acid pH solution. Most municipal water supplies are high, enough so that most of our plants could benefit from a splash of vinegar in the water.

Patty, what a pretty hibiscus! Thanks for that...how did you know that I needed that? And your advice is the best : get a real diagnosis before applying a bunch of chemicals, tonics, and elixirs.

Rhizo,

Thanks for setting me straight again. I honestly never thought of fungicide as a pesticide.

FYI, in the case of my Meyers I don't use any restricted chemicals or any that are not available to home users, perhaps in lesser strength.

I am a big fan of Bayer; their products work; and they are a most ethical company as regards people and planet.... IMHO.

As for testosterone issues; it is a generational thing; I am aware of my problem, but I doubt I am going to improve much at my age. Sorry.

You're welcome, Rhizo, thought you'd enjoy this lovely Hibiscus cultivar. I happen to live in the same general area as Hidden Valley Hibiscus, lucky me :-)

And birdman, Rhizo is correct in that a "splash" of vinegar will not hurt anything, and assist with uptake of micros. PH does not affect the updake of Nitrogen, as it is available across the pH spectrum, but Manganese, and right behind it, Iron absorption, can become problematic in a higher pH scenario. But, let's make sure your little tree isn't suffering from a serious root infection, first. All the vinegar and fertilizer in the world won't fix infected roots.

And Rhizo, you're in "sweet water" country in the south, where ground waters tend to be pretty alkaline. Drinking water here in the United States must have a pH value of 6.5-8.5 to fall within EPA standards, with municipalities attempting to reach 7.0 - 7.2 as a "neutral" pH for drinking water. But, in certain parts of the country, this can be harder to do. In general (and this is a hugely generalized statement), ground water tends to be more alkaline, the further west you go. That being said, here in the far coastal west, our regular ground water is probably about 7.2, maybe 7.4 at the highest in my area, so getting our municipal tap water to 7.0 is easy. In the southern states, ground water tends to be more alkaline,with some areas being very alkaline, so it's harder for municipal water districts to bring municipal water to that ideal 7.0 - 7.2 pH. Groundwater in areas with limestone bedrock, for instance, commonly have higher-pH than glaciated or rainwater. Water from areas affected by acid rain may have low pH (think eastern seaboard). Here's a general map of ground water pH.

Patty S.

Do we know if birdman is using a well for his water supply? I have a well, my water is too acidic. It would not be beneficial for me to add vinegar to my water. If birdman has a well with low PH do you still recommend adding vinegar? The answer is no. The point I am trying to make is something that all you experienced citrus growers already know, With something as simple as PH, its always best test before you begin treating. Even if the water comes from a municipal supply and the PH is high, its still best to test first. There should be no argument here.

We don't know, Ryan, so hopefully Birdman will let us know. Also don't know where Birdman lives, either (just somewhere that gets colder during the winter.) Fortunately, most citrus are pretty tolerant with pH ranges. Don't think we're arguing here :-) I have said test, Rhizo in her last post, also said, "...get a real diagnosis before applying a bunch of chemicals, tonics, and elixirs." That includes acidified water. So, we're all on the same page, here. Figure out, first, what is causing the overall decline and infected fruit. Then, treat accordingly, with the least toxic approach, first.

Patty S.

I'm near Starkville, MS, in the NE portion of the state. The water I'm using is from a municipal source. It stinks of chlorine, enough that we buy bottled to drink :-( As much chlorine as they add, it makes me suspect we might be on the higher end of the pH scale, but I haven't tested my water. When it rains, the tree usually gets watered that way, at least.

I have almost got the two bigger lemons to maturity, and I'd really like to give them a chance. I'll remove the smaller ones. One weekend soon, I'm planning to repot to a larger container and I'll use the suggested mix then. I'll also give the vinegar a shot, since it can't hurt.

Birdman...home pH testers are notoriously inaccurate. You can obtain all kinds of information about your water by calling your municipal water authority; mine has info on line. If you call, you might want to ask about the very strong odor of chlorine.

I'm pretty sure that most of the container growers here will advise that you hold off on the repotting...not a good time of year for that project.

Ryan,
why on earth would you add vinegar to very acidic water? That doesn't make sense to me.
I don't know how one would even use vinegar without first knowing the pH of the tap-water.
That's pretty much standard common-sense, and the advice that I always give. Test your water,
then add enough white vinegar until the pH reads somewhere between 5.0 and 5.8. Document that
volume, and then add the same amount each time you fertilize (or water, if you wish).

Now, if my water were 6.0 (acidic), I would still add vinegar to bring the pH lower...
I just wouldn't add as much. Further, vinegar isn't very stable, so it's not as though the soil-mix
itself will bear long-lasting consequences from vinegar.

Josh

Josh, no determination has been made as to Birdman's pH of his water. Just that it is municipal water. And he doesn't need to test it, just contact his municipal water district for the pH value. If his water is 7.2 or below, no need to add any vinegar. I consistently water all my container citrus with my municipal water out of a hose which is about 8.0 (acceptable range is 7.8 to 8.5 for my WD) with zero issues in micro uptake (see photos above). I pot my plants in EB Stone Cactus Mix, which I believe is on the acidic side with Fir Bark, Lava Rock, Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, Sand, Redwood Compost and Mushroom Compost, and eventually, I'll have to re-pot, if the soil starts to degrade and compact, or the trees get too big for their current pots, so that will start the cycle all over again, as far as total soil pH goes for me. If you feel better about acidifying your water, you can do that, but citrus are remarkably adaptable plants. I think we are probably more guilty of "over love" sometimes, with container citrus.

From what I see with Birdman's tree and fruit, I am still concerned that he is dealing with Phytophthora. He needs to contact his extension agent and get a definitive diagnosis. If it is Phytophthora, he really should consider replacing the potting soil (despite this perhaps not being the best time to re-pot, it now becomes essential to remove the organism from the soil and exposure to the roots), and then treat the canopy as well, with Agri-Fos, which actually travels down to the roots, and continues to protect the roots from any leftover Phytophthora. We're sort of swerving away from Birdman's original concerns of his infected fruit, and overall poor condition of his little tree. All fruit really should be removed to help the tree survive, which I know is hard to do, but the tree is struggling to be healthy and putting all its energies into trying to produce fruit at the detriment of the tree's overall health and vigor. pH isn't the issue here, I don't think.

Patty S.

Patty,
I was responding to Ryan, not to Birdman necessarily. I'm not convinced that pH is the issue,
and I sure hope that I didn't give that impression somewhere in my response. The information
that I offered applies to those who wish to lower the pH of their water. I was attempting to address
the two primary complaints in Ryan's response - that of testing, and of lowering already acidic water.

In containers, the pH of the actual media is far less important than it is in-ground.
In containers, I believe I've read that Citrus can be grown in a broad range - 3.5 - 8.5 -
or something like that. The key is that the *fertilizer solution* be in the proper pH for the
nutrient update.

I add vinegar when I fertilize, but that's it. Hose-water works fine the rest of the time :-)

Josh