+oM,

I spoke with Heritage Seedlings late last week and they had 12-16" Norway for 50 cents each. Minimum of 100 but I'd ask if you want less (groups of 25 after the 100, minimum). By far these are the best seedling growers I've encountered.

Your seedlings will arrive in moist, orange-papery-stuff that smells as sweet as a tic tac, I kid you not. Better hurry! Times a wastin'..

Dax

here in MI ... soil conservation district orders are due within the next week or so ...

find them in the white pages under US GVMT ....

ken

Tom:

I would not look for the cheapest prices. Carino is fine--I have bought from them before and their bareroot trees arrive in very good condition. I have not ordered from Van's Pines but will this year. I have also had good luck with Musser Forests--I don't think you can go wrong with any of these.

I would order from at least two to get different seed sources and when planting mix them. Musser is central PA and not at a high elevation. Should be OK. Van's pines gets their seed from a central Mich source--could be better for you where you are. And Carino is a southern, MI source and/or Austrian--I commented on that before.

I think a little extra money spent on the best stock is money well spent. The very largest of the transplants are hard to plant--they require a big hole and careful filling around the rather heavy roots. I go for something in between. From Van's, I am getting the P+1 husky transplants (18 to 24 inches). I always go for the largest size in any age/transplant category, figuring they are the most vigorous and may perform better. I could get P+1 that are 12 to 15", but I figure they must be less vigorous, otherwise why did they not grow as much as the others in the same time.

From Musser I will get 3 year seedlings which seem to have some good size, and then 24 of the 2 foot transplants under the specials (very, very expensive, but for me worth it).

From Carino I will order the 14 to 24" 2-3 year transplants.

A note on the categories here. Three year seedlings just means that--seedlings grown three years.

The transplants can be a bit complicated--they are grown as seedlings for 2 or 3 years, then dug and replanted and grown for 2 or 3 more years. It used to be that these were often the runts saved from the digging of seedlings and re-planted, so I often avoided them for that reason. Carino assures me that they do not do them that way--that the plant and dig seedlings specifically to produce the best transplants. I have not asked Musser about their practices in this regard.

Van's pines starts their seedlings in plugs--I don't like plugs because the roots are shorter than dug seedlings. But they offer transplants, which are plugs planted out for 1 to 3 years and then dug as bareroot trees. I will be trying these for the first time this year.

These larger seedlings (3 year) and the transplants are more expensive, but trust me, they are worth it. If you plant these NS out in a field where they have to compete with grasses and weeds, you will have much less work keeping them from being overtopped by grass and weeds. Where I am the weeds grow fast and tall, so if the seedlings are small I have to hand weed them two to four times per year(some people who have rows and rows of these mow between the rows, which helps, but does not keep them really clean). So if you start with larger stock the work later is much less. And trust me, if your seedlings get overtopped for just a month or two you loose a lot of time. If they are overtopped for a year you may as well just start over, even if they live. Too much vigor is lost. After the trees are tall enough not to be overtopped, I see little benefit in continuing to weed them--once they can keep their heads in the sun, NS compete very well with weeds.

Good luck--keep us posted on what you decide and how the planting goes. I am getting my holes dug now--major, major work since I am using so many larger transplants. I am digging a hole, shaking all the dirt off the grass and weeds and then leaving the dirt in the holes until the trees come. I am digging hole 2 1/2 to 3 feet in diameter and getting them clean of weeds--about 300 of them. This will be the most careful planting of NS seedlings I have ever done. The trees will have no competition for the first year at least. I shouldn't have to do much weeding at all. I will save my time for watering if the usual dry spells come.

I will also mulch each one and protect each one in one of three different methods.

--Spruce

If you're considering other sources try the Univ. of Idaho Forest Nursery. We were happily surprised by the size and quality of the seedlings we received last year.

Here is a link that might be useful: Univ. of Idaho Forest Nursery

Thanks for the responses! Dax, I'd not heard of Heritage. That does look like a good deal, and I'm going to check with them. Ken, I am looking into county programs, and will get going very shortly on that option, as yes, time's a wasting. Pasadena, thanks for reminding me of U. of Idaho. I had checked out their offerings a while back, but managed to forget about them. Will look again.

Spruce, I'd had much the same thought patterns running around my head-runt avoidance, basically. And after much consideration, I've decided to go through a rather more laborious planting procedure than machine planting or spud bar. I too will be digging individual holes for each plant. The area is covered by snow at present, so it's much too early here to get that started.

Here's what I envision: As soon as weather has warmed enough to get the alfalfa growing, I plan to walk along, spraying glyphosate at 8 foot intervals, each sprayed patch around 2-3 feet in diameter. Then, when the alfalfa has died, planting each tree with a regular shovel, rather than just the spud bar technique. I figure a few extra minutes spent at initiation per tree well worth it, given the long-term project that is tree growing. I'd love to mulch, and have access to unlimited quantities of wood chips, but getting them there will pose a problem, at least up front. Perhaps I will have to settle for getting the mulching done after planting. Not as good, I know, but it just may have to be. Likewise for watering, I'm really going to have to be dependant on timely rainfall. It's quite a gamble but I just don't see much in the way of alternatives.

I believe planting one acre at 8X8 spacing comes to around 700 seedlings. Not sure I can afford that just yet, but any amount will be satisfying. We'll just do what we can for this year.

Incidentally, my younger son and I went up there last Saturday, the day after we closed on the deal. There's LOTS of snow on the ground. In some places in the woods, we would occassionally crash through the top crust and find ourselves waist deep in snow. Since then, we've had rain and thunderstorms followed by just a couple inches of snow. Should be interesting to see how it is this weekend.

+oM

Tom:

The earlier you get the seedlings in the better--I am wondering when the alfalfa will start to grow so you can kill it with roundup. In the MD mountains I usually planted by April 18 or so, before much of anything had started to grow. For the first few years I planted three year seedlings and planted them with a planting bar after scraping off the sod and perennial weed roots (goldenrod, etc.). I never watered even one and lost almost zero, except for some to pales weevil where they were present (areas where pines grew before). Any mulching I did was to place any grass/weeds I scraped off next to the trees upside down. The hardest part of this method was the scraping. I could plant 50 to 75 in a day this way, depending on the difficulty of scraping off the grass/weeds. But during the summer the weeds came back vigorously and keeping them clear was really, really tough work.

If you are planting 700, this planting bar method may be the way to go and then do the best you can deal with weeds later. One idea I have had, but not yet tried, is to get one of the smaller tomato cages, then tape some cardboard or plastic around it, and then with an assistant placing it over each seedling, narrow side down, spraying roundup. If your son could help you you could spray a lot of seedlings fast this way and might not have to do any weeding. But you would need to do this before the weeds/alfalfa got very tall.

I think I described in a post last year the method I used in some later years for relatively small quantities of seedlings. I would scrape the weeds/sod, then loosen/dig the soil with a drain spade (if you don't know this kind of shovel, it is the best for tree planting/digging), leaving the soil in the hole, and then using the shovel as a planting bar plant the seedling and close the hole very carefully. Using this method I could do 25 to 30 in a day.

What I am now doing here in VA is basically crazy, but I want this 1,000 foot long double screen to get a really fast start. And here in VA I know I will have to water--the climate down here is just to hot and dry, and here just north of Winchester we are in a kind of rain shadow with high mountains to the southwest. Most of the summer rain in this quarter of the country comes from thunderstorms forming in warm southwest winds, and we get almost zero rain from this source here. Terrible, terrible droughts. You should not have that problem where you are, at least not too often.

Well, maybe I go on too long giving advice--forgive me. But I want to share all the experience I have had with planting little trees--as of this year, I have been doing this for 35 years, although not every year.

I hope you live close enough to your new land to get there easily. When I bought my land, I lived almost 5 hours away amd could work only on occasional weekends for a day and a half--a real limitation.

--Spruce

Spruce, your comments are ALWAYS appreciated from this corner. Truth is, right after I posted about my plan, it occurred to me that timing of alfalfa greenup may make pre-application of the herbicide impossible. Also, the CFO of this little enterprise-my wife-has made it clear that money is tight, so I may opt to scale back for now. Also, and this is related to the previous statement, I am very serious about taking advantage of a really good cost-sharing program we have in this state. Up to 50% reimbursement for seedling cost, planting costs (Based on a max. rate of $10/hr. for my own labor), maintenance, ie. weed control, etc. and other associated costs. Because one of the prerequisites of enrolling in this program is to have a formal plan, and because it's already March, I may opt to make the first major push in Spring 09. I am, of course, anxious to get going, but in the total scheme of things, it might work out better to not rush just yet. Truth is, and sorry to sound a bit maudlin here, but we're quite cash-strapped. Just a lot of issues going on. So I want to tread carefully and not add too much stress.

Incidentally, I hooked up with another source today. Lake Superior Tree Farms (www.lakesuperiortreefarms.com) located in Upper Michigans' Keweenau Penninsula. The guy I spoke with, Bob, sounded very knowledgable about provenance issues. Turns out they were the originators of some very popular strains such as "Majestic" blue spruce, a Scots pine strain I recognized though I can't remember the name just now, and others. For Norway spruce, this individual selects seed from some local trees of good form, color, etc. Prices are good too. For example, 7-14 inch NS at $23/100. I'm leaning towards making this firm one of my suppliers. They're also close enough to make picking up the seedlings a possibility, or at least, making shipping less costly.

Though not one of my original ideas, I'm now thinking I may mix some of their Picea pungens in with the NS planting areas at a rate of perhaps 10-20%. Any thoughts on this idea? I really like Abies concolor, but with its' slow growth, it always comes at a higher price. I'm thinking initially, the blue spruce might be a better option to get that aesthetic effect. FWIW, blue spruce does grow fast in this region. Not as fast as NS, but still very respectable growth rate.

I've seen references to weavil problems when planting into former alfalfa land. This too makes me think it would be better to have patches killed off where the trees are to go, and by waiting 'til next Spring, I could have this done ahead of time this Fall.

This land is only an hours' drive from our home, and that's taking the scenic route. It is definitely nice being so close!

Yeah, I write a lot too. But that's what this forum is for!

Take care.....+oM

Tom:

Yes, look into the cost share program--years ago I did work under those. I got free trees for several years. Of course $23 per hundred is almost free. But maybe this year you could plant just a few--just to get a start and have some fun right away.

Don't mix the blue spruce with the Norway--the Norway will outgrow the blue spruce, event though you say it grows fast there, and what you have will be ugly. I think blue spruce growing next to NS in a co-dominant, but really more likely a subdominant position at best, will not be attractive. They will be thin, sparce, and the dead and dying lower branches on Blue spruce will be more ugly than on most other conifers. The right strain of Norway and the right strain of white pine can grow together. The other possible mixture is larch and NS and white pine, but the larch is a very fast starter so should be planted between the others after the others have at least a 3 or 4 year head start--depending on growth rates in your area.

As for weevils--there are all kinds of veevils--I would be surprized if one that is in alfalfa would affect pines, but then I have been surprized before. Your forester should know.

I have been thinking of getting the "Majestic" strain of blue spruce. I may call the nursery and see what I can find out. I have seen one or two plantings that I think may have been from that strain--if so, I want some. I will ask the people up there to describe the growth form/color--if I am right about those I have seen, they are spectacular! thanks for the info.

The trees I susprct may be this strain are planted in a row and the variation and the weep and the color are amazing. I think something like this is best planted in a row where the variation and color, etc. can be easily seen. Maybe you have a place for such a planting. I am now deciding where I will put mine if i can be sure the "Majestic" BS are what I think they may be.

You are in white spruce country--or close to it. Have you thought about those? Of course they won't keep up with NS either, but they can be nice.

--Spruce

Thanks Spruce. Yes you're right, dead lower branches on B. spruce are quite unnattractive. Perhaps a more clumped approach, where each species is more or less competing with others of its own kind, yet still in proximity to the others. We'll see.

There is supposed to be a weavil, the grubs of which are soil dwellers, whcih will make the dietary change from alfalfa roots to those of tree seedlings. I expect when I get with the county forester, he would know what, if anything, need be done there.

Yes, I like white spruce well enough. Just trying for a more varied look I suppose. That could still turn up here!

If you do contact LSTF, they might say their Colorado blue spruce are not "called" "Majestic". If I understood the guy right, it is the same tree, but there must be some kind of agreement that they not market theirs as such. See what they say. Good people to talk with. Here's their phone #:

1-800-863-4720

+oM

I stand corrected. LSTF does list "Majestic". Along with a couple other strains of P. pungens.

+oM

Tom:

Yes, right. I got on their website and see they have some nice big "Majestic" transplants. And I just got off the phone with them. I think I talked with the son of the owner who developed this strain. He was very helpful. I asked about the difference between the "Majectic" and the so-caled "Blue Wonder" or Van Sikes strain. It seems that the trees here locally that I thought might have been the "Majestic" strain are in fact the "Blue Wonder." These are the ones I especially want. Maybe you remember my post a while ago about the beautiful blue spruce I found growing here that has a really good blue color on the current year's foliage and then almost a grass green on the prior year's foliage. Well, that was from a row of trees that I am now almost sure was from the "Blue Wonder" strain, and that coloration is a strong tendency in that strain. And this strain has more horizontal (or on the lower limbs slightly drooping) branching habit and somewhat weeping branchlets. Very attractive to my taste. The "Majestic" has more upward branches with less pronounced weeping of the branchlets. Anyway, I would like some of both.

The son said his father would probably like to talk to me about what I know about NS provenance, etc., so he asked for my number. He did tell me that their NS is from a row of nice NS growing very near their tree farm. Their seedling/transplant stock seems to have good size, so you might want to try some. I have no way of knowing, however, if what they have is a good strain. They said they would send me some pictures of their "Majestic" blue spruce, so maybe I can ask if they have any pictures of their seed source NS. I can't tell much about growth rates from pictures, but I can judge form, branching habit, etc. and often some of these characteristics can be predictors of overall vigor and growth rates.

I will let you know what I find out.

--Spruce

I can see that you all have room for lots of trees, what about a source for seedlings that doesn't need you to order in double digits? What about growing from seed? Is someone on the forum starting conifers from seed? Wondering how long a wait it would be and if there is a source for seed?

My son is starting to take an interest in growing bonsai and would like just a few small seedlings.

Thanks...
pm2

pm2:

I will reply under your other topic posted just a bit later.

--Spruce

Spruce, did LSTF ever send pics of their NS source trees?

I'm thinking for now I'm just going to get 100 NS, 3-0, 12"-18". At least get a few going this Spring.

Thanks for the tip about delaying the larch planting a couple-few years. That will also help me in researching sources for that hybrid. Itasca has plugs but I probably won't be able to water this stuff at all, and I've gathered that you've seen better results with longer-rooted bareroots. Would you say this is true?

One other item, have you ever planted any Abies grandis, the Idaho type?

+oM

looks like you're getting your stuff in order. regarding Abies grandis, I've asked about that and you should be good to go with those. i'm certain the mediteranean firs are best for the midwest but mr. resin has commented that interior strains 'will be best' when discussing questions such as your's. i'll assume the air in idaho might be dry where these populations occur so it won't ever be the best long-term tree by any shot, but it could fair decently is the impression i was left with after discussing this (Pinus ponderosa or Pinus contorta var. latifolia) too...

a little luck and you may be going places! you gotta try a few with that much land...

mmmmm.......treeeeeeees! (my homer simpson impression)

dax

Tom:

No, I never got any call and no pictures. I would try some of their trees, but since they are from a planted row and not a forest stand, they probably can't be called a "land race"--trees planted in a row simply don't have the kind of competition that results in sorting out well for the stronger more locally adapted ones. But it could still be the case that they are well adapted for their, and your climate.

As for the Abies grandis--I have no experience. I think with many of the trees you might want to try, it might be best to think of them as specimen trees in a kind of arboretum kind of planting. For forest plantings I think you should only go with "tried-and-true" kinds of things--there is just too much effort and land involved in trying something for a forest planting that may come to nothing--or nothing really beautiful. I think your choices are red pine, white pine, Norway spruce, and the European, Japanese, and Hybrid larches. Possibly white spruce, but I don't think that will give you anything as good as the others.

Personally I don't think Colorado blue spruce would give you much in the way of a really beautiful forest stand, but you could try a half acre or so just for fun. Of course you have the arborvitae growing there already, which you love. Of the choices you have, I think the NS and the white pine are the ones that deserve the most effort/land. But red pine for you up there may be a good third choice. And I would definately do some larches, but I have to admit that I have never seen them growing in a forest stand, except for very small patches or in mixtures. They may be best as occasional trees or groups mixed in with white pine and NS, or as scattered landscape trees as backdrops, etc. In the fall they are absolutely stunning when seen from a distance in a landscape--maybve at the edge of a stand of NS or white pine, etc. and in the spring when they first "green up" they are also very special. But they will grow very, very well in a pure forest stand--what I am saying is that I really don't know what the "beauty" or "visual effect" of such a stand would be. But give them a try for a forest stand, but also look at them as "landscape enhancers," or as a tree in mixture with the white pine and NS.

And as for the larches, I am not sure the hybrid is really necessary--both the European and Japanese will grow very, very fast for you there. There is a seed source issue with the European larch, according to John Genys who did a provenance trial with them here in MD. I can't give any specific guidance except to say if you can find a source from some place close to you there in WI you might come up with a good land race. There may be an issue with the Japanese larch, but I know next to nothing about that.

Yes, the long rooted bareroot trees are the way to go. When I plant I take the extra time to make sure I get the roots down as far as they can go into the hole, spread somewhat, and close it carefully. I can give you some specific pointers on how to do this reliably and effeciently if you wish--nothing really special, but if you have never planted bareroot seedlings before, I might be able to help you get on a really fast learning curve.

Good bareroot trees planted properly never need watering in most reasonably moist climates if planted early enough--at least three weeks before bud break. Even here in VA if I get them in early enough I should not have to water if we get "normal" rains.

--Spruce

Ah yes, 'normal rains'-I remember those;^) I'm hopeful for a return to reasonable moisture. We were well above normal Dec, Jan, Feb, but now March is drier than normal. All the storm tracks are essentially missing us.

I've got some nice native white pine in the wooded part. I plan to manage to encourage their expansion of the adjacent field area. That along with the Thuja and two birches.

Red pine is kind of the money tree around here. I like them just fine, but again, I'm trying for something a bit different here. I might mix a few in anyway as time goes on.

I've got some hardwoods (There, I said it!) that are worthy of expansion as well-especially for me, the aforementioned paper and yellow birches. Of course sugar maple and basswood are present. Good trees but not exactly out of the ordinary. I guess out of all the hardwoods I've got, the yellow birch is the one I'm going to try to encourage. I'm meeting with the DNR Forester in a few weeks on site. That should be most helpful.

There are a few native larch (Tamarack) in the woods. Big cones of gold they were this past Autumn. We get pure stands of these in low areas.

Honestly, if I just plant my NS, maybe some larch later, and work with the high-quality natives already there, I don't see going wrong. But you know how it is....always thinking about this and that ;^)

+oM

PS....Spruce, if you've still got my email, I'd be most appreciative of your sending me any planting tips you care to.

Tom:

Well, some of the ordinary things are the most beautiful--I have always had a special fondness for sugar maple. I have some really fine ones on my timberland. And the yellow birch--I have a fair amount on my timberland, but unfortunately in the MD mts it is plagued by a kind of canker disease that essentially ruins them for timber--the mills here won't even take them because there is so much defect. But they are pretty trees and when I bought my land many years ago there were a few real old "cull" trees left from the logging in the 30's. Most of these have died now. I love the younger ones--they have a special gracefullness when growing in tight spaces. I also have black birch, which gets much the same disease. Down here in VA the river birch can be really wonderful and can look very much like the yellow birch.

Yes, I will write a little "essay" on bareroot planting and send it to you--in a day or two.

We are still in our drought here, already over two inches below normal for the year--I expect I will have to water. I will buy a couple of long extension hoses. I may not use them after this year and next, but I can set them up so they can reach 80 percent of what I will have planted. Money well spent if it keeps me from killing myself carrying water.

--Spruce