Inevitably threads on "hot button" topics such as this spiral out of control. Whether it was started with innocent intentions or not, this thread is no different.

Here are my observations:
1. The name calling is Absolutely uncalled for, please stop! It is a poor debate tool, is not constructive, and never furthers ones own case.
2. The impacts of climate change are potentially relevant to citrus growing, especially for those that live in regions that are currently just outside of the normal citrus growing areas. (Personally, living in Massachusetts, I do not believe any of this will matter during my lifetime)
3. Climate change is real and is occurring. The only debate is on the man-made contribution (or lack thereof) to it.
4. The original post does not bring up the causes, or potential causes, of the recent documented changes in our climate. This was not part of the question, although it has clearly been pulled (detrimentally) into the conversation.
5. There is indeed significant data (glacier ice core samples, volcanic sediment layers, fossil records, etc...) detailing long term past changes (both cooling and warming) in the global climate.
6. Very little in science is fact, claiming so on either side of the argument is foolish.
7. There are well over 130+ years worth of data from temperature monitoring stations around the world that have been used to document global climate trends during this time period. One is free to draw their own conclusions as to the significance of these data.
8. For a good summary of recent climate trends see what NASA has to say: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2011/ This summary takes into account factors such as volcanic activity, solar irradiance, El nino/La nina, etc...
9. Algorithms to model future climate trends are only models. See observation #6. These models are not set in stone, they will be tweaked over time to reflect improvements in the scientific communities understanding of the factors that influence the global climate.

Most people on both sides of this topic are firmly set in their opinions, no discussion no matter how rational (or not), on a forum such as this is going to changes anybody's mind.

Can we please agree that this thread has outlived its purpose and let it fade to the back pages of the forum?

PS: Meyer_Mike, the NASA climate trend summary (link above) does a good job of showing some of the recent cold weather in the Northeast. See Figs. 4 and 5.

-Scott

(edit for spelling correction)

This post was edited by Scott_6B on Fri, Aug 9, 13 at 12:45

I dont need to argue the fact that i dont believe its man made so Ill leave it to that.

My area is finally out of a drought and we are having temperatures back to our normals. The last 2 years have been much much warmer. Sounds like a cycle to me.

Other option-Obama finally decided to stop sending Chem trails over us and Texas causing the droughts so his buddies at Monsanto can sell us drought resistant veggie seeds. Oh that'll get some debate going wont it!
{{gwi:612442}}

mike

This post was edited by mksmth on Fri, Aug 9, 13 at 11:34

I agree with Scott that we ought to let this Thread go the way of the mammoth....before GardenWeb terminates it for us and reminds us gently of the Forum rules.

But I must add that now there are more trees in north America than when the pilgrims landed - granted, the distribution has shifted. The great Boreal forest is also growing and "taking deeper breaths," as one scientist put it.

Josh

Before this post goes the way of the mammoth, I just HAVE to add my two cents. I think before people began trying to blame global warming (now they call it climate change since not every region is warming) on the appearance of man's smoke-belching machinery on Earth, we should look at what the Earth's climate has done over time without significant anthropogenic alteration. I think scientists mostly agree Earth is and always has cycled through cooler and warmer periods, possibly only on a regional scale. If you blame man for the current change (if indeed it is a change), I think you should first describe how this change is different from pre-modern change.

I would like to hear how other are taking advantage of the climate changes/ extremes to their advantage. I am not interested in the causes or lack of. I am experiment with different systems that will take advantage of the apparent changes I am getting in Cincinnati. If other are doing things with citrus and are successful, please share them. I agree, we don't know what if anything will happen in the future. An answer of I don't believe is fine to. I would like to continue this thread in a friendly manor.

Thanks all Steve

A citrus tree, properly cared for will produce for 100 years or more; so to make "adjustments" to account for "trends" of a few years is patently foolish.
I have a "rule of thumb" for trees; if you are going to plant a tree that you will have for a long time, hold your thumb up at arm's length and turn around 360 degrees. If you don't see any of that kind of tree in your vision, it is likely because it won't grow there.

Personally all of my 20,000 plus trees, as is true of all my garden plants are like my children; and it would be a bit sad to plant a tree that might survive a couple of seasons and then be killed by frost after some years of investment of my time and my money.

Johnmerr

I agree with you on this one. My citrus trees will never make it out side in my lifetime even under the most sever predictions of warming. What I am doing is building a tall narrow southside triple layer greenhouse to serve as a solar heating system. In that I can grow citrus, in my case meiwa kumquat, as espalier fruit trees. I will be able to go off the grid as far as heating. The kumquats store on the tree so I don't need a refrigerator and are fresh fruit all winter when my other trees are dormant. My fig trees will be further out under a lean-to cold frame. butting the greenhouse. I will dry the figs thus no refrigeration is needed. My trees and plants are chosen to give fruit and vegie all year from february 15 through january 1st. I agree that we could get a severe cold snap, but i have the equipment to deal with it. Over all thing will turn out well My goal is to be able to deal well with the future changes to come. I believe will be a warming of our planetary system, but I can't prove it. My trees may die but it wont be the cold that kills them.

I respect the fact that you don't believe in global warming. Chances are you could be correct and not me.

I would like to hear what others are doing in our changing world citrus wise.

Thank Steve

Look... in the 230 years that we have even poor records, the average global temperature has increase about 1 degree Fahrenheit... if that 1 degree makes the difference for you if your trees will live or die, I would bet on the trend; if not, it is only a matter of a few years until your tree is killed by the cold

I needed a new integrated multi use roof to protect me against regional temperature rise My new roof has cut my cooling costs in half through june and july. In august the sun shine from a lower angle and I get more heat through the side of my house i save about 1/3 off my cooling cost.

My roof top has provided me with about $250
to $500 in fresh poison free food.

Living in the inner city It can get quit noisy, but now the noise no longer comes through. By placing dirt over my roof I shield the rubber membrane from heart and damaging UV and will extend a 15 year roof to 60 years. By then I will be dead and will not have had to replace it twice.

These are the thing I am doing with the 1 F that ends up a + 10 for the lowest of winter lowes. My last frosts ad first autumn frost have move 2 to 4 weeks total for an increase growing season.

Thanks Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: https://plus.google.com/photos/111099372377958308731/albums/5864651368775846321?banner=pwa&authkey=CI763rvAj8eLAg

I am in central Florida 15 miles from the Gulf and we have been here 10 years......every winter we get 1-5 nights below 32F our winters have not been warmer sadly. That observation though proves nothing. You would have to look at 10 thousand years of data to get a sense of trends. For the record I'm all for global warming I want to grow Mango:)

My opinion on the issue is people that believe in MMGW fall in to one of two groups.... those that are just easily persuadable, same people that believe in astrology, ghosts and Pyramid power. Second is the tree hugger mother earth types that don't realize their hyper radical environmentalism has become a religion that clouds any chance of logic or thoughtful reflection on the issue.

One cannot have an intelligent conversation that in any way involves "global warming" without mentioning sampling, statistics, etc., and all of the politicians that have earned millions from pushing the topic (and some of you know who they are) - and that would not be appropriate for this forum. Can this please be left alone?

Lol..Every time someone posts to this thread, it just rises to the top..I Congratulate Steve for get these many responses....

It is the most active thread here and it's about time many come out of the wood work..

There is no separation of in-ground verses potted citrus here...Everyone has come together as a group..

Great job Steve:-)

Mike

Ok, well time for me to post to this. I have to agree with Meyer Mike. This has to be THE worst summer I can ever remember! I hate these cold nights and barely warm days! My poor citrus are barely doing anything. My meyer lemon tree would have been blooming all summer, but it just now is forming it's second round of flower buds, while the fruits that should have all ready ripened from last year, are just now turning a yellow green color!

Usually I have plumeria blooms by now, and I barely have had any this year. If this keeps up Mike, we probably will have a frost by the end of August!

Andrew

Mike

Thanks for the compliment and support. This thread didn't go any way that I was hoping. It seemed more people were angered by it with claims that global warming was not fit for the Citrus forum. I neglected to thank you earlier so that the thread could die. My conclusion, this is my thread and if others would like it to die. Just don't post to it and I will leave it alone.

All I wanted was to see how other people were preparing and /or trying new citrus to get the jump on global warming. I am growing full size trees in protection in hopes that I can plant them out side in 10 year.

For those of you that enjoyed this, Thanks for looking

Steve,,,you did nothing wrong...

It's the bunch of babies that can't seem to allow others to have a different view point or opinion than their own, and read negativity or misconstrue a persons good intentions...

No worries, I get it.... Many around here don't know how to have fun or set their own examples about complaining about what others do..

I like these kinds of threads because it always brings the sleepers, inactive, and bystanders out...
This forum has almost changed from friendly kind people to stiff in the box ones...But thank goodness for the few good here, ones that don't mind thinking outside the box and who appreciate a good gathering here in which a conversation DOES include citrus and how conditions and changes does affect them.
It takes a lot for me to get people back here posting again at times that once left because of rudeness and unappreciative people, but they are back, focused on helping others and seeing the good side of things.

You have been been mistreated in words on a few occasions and have not been discouraged to leave, My hats off to you for that.

Mike

Mike Sorry I must have missed this one. I appreciate the support very much. It is unimportant whether others believe in global warming because this forum is about helping and chatting on what we are doing with citrus which is what I was trying for. A simple sharing of notes. My skin is very tough to words but I bruise easily to physical contact. The only one on this forum close enough to throw rocks at me is Popdo and I think he lives in cleveland. I think some people were angry about my past picture posting. I have slowed down on that.

BTW My hardy chicago fig just graduated today to a new home.
{{gwi:612443}}

Thanks again Mike

Steve

I am finalizing the plans for my citrus/tropicals greenhouse that will be double as my home's solar heating system. The inevitable onset of global warming gives me opportunities to grow citrus and figs in an unheated greenhouse. These trees will grow up the south side of my house and will block the suns heat in the summer to lighten the load on my air conditioner. My food production has almost double and will provide for me as farm crops diminish. Best of all I will get fresh citrus all winter long. The plans call for the brown turkey figs be placed against the house wall while the hardy chicago figs will be placed in front. The kumquat trees will be in 4 ft by 6 ft boxes set on rollers on a set of steel rails. That way the kumquat trees can be pulled south from the house to get all day sunlight during the spring and summer months.
{{gwi:612444}}
South facing walls do not do well for summer light

The picture below shows the general lay out of the greenhouse.

Mike Thanks for all the support

Steve

Believe in human induced warming & weirding? Yes. I went through a skeptical phase, but we are way beyond that. The USDA has revised it's zone maps to account for the changes that have already occurred.

As for responses, we're already in prime citrus territory, so not much advantage gained. Maybe in a few years I could grow mango. The biggest thing I am doing is designing for resilience. First and foremost, that means diversity.

I don't want to rely too much on citrus, because a single pest like citrus psyllid/HBL could wipe out everything. Variety also means an extreme weather event doesn't destroy a season, because something else is flowering the next week.

So, I wouldn't say I am taking advantage of the changes, but I my strategy is designed to minimize negative impacts.

I have no idea what warming are you talking about, In my country it is getting cooler and there is more rain in the summer and winter, more storms here than before. Maybe it is affecting us like this...
Well the Lemon season was bad this year, Got cold before July and they stopped producing since then, other than 3 lemons now and then... no more huge crops... They are growing still so no complains, the tree is 3 times my size or maybe 4... =P

We have not had a below average month of global temps in 27 years. Not one.

The world has about 200,000 glaciers, 90% are disappearing at an accelerating rate.

My past handful of Winters here in the Appalachian mountains have been the warmest I can remember. Hardly any snow, citrus and banana plants surviving undamaged in the open till mid December or later! Spring came a month earlier than usual this year...
This summer has been the rainiest one in decades.

Global warming-regardless of man's contribution or if it can be partly explained by natural weather cycles on Earth- it's here now.

My two cents

I have a question?

Where is all the pollution going then if it's not effecting this earth?
What about the Ozone layer damage ?
What about Rain Forest deforestation?
Exhaust fumes?

Lot's of things humans are doing to effect this weather, but not sure if it's enough to cause the changes what we are talking about?

Mike

Our highs for the last month have been on average 10 degrees below normal. we havent seen 100 degrees in I think 26 or 27 days. Last year we had 26 or 27 degree days and half of those were 110+. Our drought is over and the rivers and ponds are full to the brim.

As temperature rise I will need less heating in the winter and more cooling in the summer. These citrus tree planters will block all sunlight from the time I might start cooling till the last day of cooling. the planter will give clear access for solar heating during what would be heating season. Check diagram.

Steve

Such careful, meticulous, and detailed planning... for what the longest running "measurements" over about 130 years indicates a possible 1/2 degree Celsius average temperature increase.

Can someone say, "overreaction" to something that is lifetimes away from proving anything apart from weather cycles.

Johnmerr

I agree with what you are saying for the most part. Cincinnati Has experienced about a 5 F change. We have also increase our concrete footprint adding about another 5F. Cincinnati has assigned taxes to our gas meter. It is a fixed tax and is the same if I use $200 or $20000 in gas. My house needed new siding so why not insulate. I replaced my roof with a 15 year rubber roof. I covered it with 2 feet of dirt. The no sunshine roof is now a 45 year roof. I'll be dead or 101 years old before I'll have problems with it. I had so many areas to gain by preparing for global worming. In my case, my wife and I made the right choice and we will soon be off the grid. and growing almost all out culinary needs.

Steve

Steve,

You have made good choices, environmentally friendly, and maybe even economically valid... you are to be congratulated for that... climate change/global warming ... not important.

Would anyone like to revise your positions on this. GD global warming

I'm listening

Steve

You know what, Steve? I'm going to step in here, and ask that we retire this topic. It really is not appropriate for our Citrus Forum, and it's a rather volatile topic. Too politically charged, and polarizing. Plus, it's a stretch to make this something really on-topic for this forum. I would like to see us move on to more interesting and applicable topics, and not stir the pot, here. I think really we're all much more interested in knowing how folks are doing with their citrus, and not so much discussing this topic. Can we all agree to do that and move on? I sure would appreciate it. Plenty of other forums for this type of discussion :-)

Patty S.

OK

Steve

Thanks, Steve. I'd much rather hear about how your seedling trees are doing :-)

Patty S.

I am with Patty on this Steve...

I'll link you to just the foru like Patty described that you would enjoy..Just be careful you don't get burnt, if you can handle it...

Mike

Here is a link that might be useful: Hot Topics

Mike, just glanced at the link. Fell out of my chair, laughing! Perfect for anyone with too much time on their hands & seeking cheap entertainment. ;-)

yakkwak

I fell out of my chair to. A cool summer, cool fall but very late first frost, and now a devastating late fall into winter left me scrambling to save my trees. Many friends asked me if I was mad and frustrated by this cold weather. After thinking, I realized that this is a hobby and realized I just did what was needed and am not bothered by this at all. Gardening is hard to do both physically and intellectually.

I bumped into this thread looking up something else and LOL'ed and thought it would be interesting to hear how others are taking this extreme cold. Have you lost trees, were you prepared, I made a point of being 2 weeks ahead of schedule and as a result I had no problems barely clearing this snap.

--------FORGET------GLOBAL------WARMING-----
How are you guys doing with the strange weather we had this year. Do you have any frozen steam to release.If you post pics, I'll look. I know the USA has gotten some real cold blasts. How about others.

Please just share your experiences. This is meant to be enjoyable for us all and we may end up getting ideas for ourselves.

At this time of the year there is little work for me and I have about a 6 week time off to catch up and read.

My wife read Prevention, Danielle steel, bodice buster grocery store love stories, and the CINCINNATI Enquirer

My friend love Edger Allen Poe, Faulkner, and Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)

I like garden web type readings, and real people.

If you want this Thread to Die, Let this be the last entry. if not lets keep it citrus and positive. I am in favor of reading on others citrus stories

My trees are doing very well. This is my favorite one right now.

{{gwi:612446}}
SWEETLEE TANGERINE TREE FROM SEED. AT 49 WEEKS

As soon as the tempers cooled on this conversation we get record cold!!!!

ANY CONNECTION????

Mike

We will see 40 hours below 0F with a near record cold of -12 F.I have piled 3 feet of leaves on my fig trees so to keep the main trunks alive. I have cranked shut the vents to hold in the heat on my growbox in the basement.

Steve

PS I thought it would make for good laughs.

We are supposed to get 0F tonight, which is about 10F lower than the temps have gotten in about 5 years here.

My front yard looks like a tent city, plastic tarps and blankets over various citrus, palms, etc.

I moved some plants out of the greenhouse and into my living room.

crispy

Would you have any pictures of the tent city

no pictures. Basically just plastic sheeting over bamboo poles or wrapped around things.

I also piled dirt high around the trunks of some of my citrus to prevent them freezing completely.

While I dont agree with all the pollution in our environment, and I do think that man can have some effect on our climate, I think earths climate has been fluctuating for MILLIONS of years. We go through periods of stability and periods of instability.

I cannot say whether pollution or water vapor is causing any "global warming". I can say that our planet could do with out all this man made crap in the atmosphere but as far as "global warming" is concerned, our planet fluctuates too much to blame any changes on man made garbage.

If anything, I will say that pollution and water vapor are not helping the planet any and might have some effect on the planets natural ability to fluctuate/regulate temperatures. But I will not say that we are solely responsible for the changes.

I too have noticed warmer than normal temps and as well as a more humid climate. I live in the the Oklahoma City area. Nothing has lead me to believe that anything has caused this change to happen except maybe MAYBE co2 levels. I do feel the same way as some others in this forum. Whether 'global warming' is actually a problem or not or real or not whether it's a cycle or ongoing escalation of rising temps world wide doesn't matter. What does matter is making every attempt to be more in tune with nature. Be it solar panels, electric cars, geothermal heating and cooling, wind turbines, rainfall reservoirs, etc. . . Is the right thing to do if you can do it and straying away from as much pollution as possible while still living comfortably I believe everyone would agree is the most admirable thing one could do for Mother Earth. I have no advise as to what to prepare for as I don't currently see any problems CURRENTLY being the keyword. As I said before if your conserned about global warming then the best things you can do is lower your carbon footprint and leave the tire burning,grease-and-paint-down-the-drain, pesticide-herbicide-rodent poisoning polluter next door alone and live in peace. I live by my own motto of "be nice to your mother... She's the one that feeds you"

Man made global warming or the manmade myth of gullible alarming? This one is too easy folks. Just watch Joe Bastardi's weekly weather summary. If you care to disagree then you probably have an agenda. If you grow citrus in the ground outside zone10, Joe is a good watch anyhow.

Roger Revelle was one of the first to advance the theory of CO2 as greenhouse gas causing a coming warming. He was at Harvard and attracted the leftist liberal crowd that realized they could use this to defeat capitalism. Here in Texas we call them watermelons since they are only green on the outside and all red inside. Algore became his most vocal proponent. Revelle went to the lab and did some experiments. He predicted huge temperature rises and climate change due to really high CO2 levels. It never happened. The models they developed still have not matched real world CO2 levels. Nor has the temperature gone up like Revelle originally predicted. Revelle was not a kook. He realized he made a mistake and recanted the whole global warming myth before he died. He even apologized for "any harm he had done". Not so the rest of the warming hucksters. They parlayed this into a multi-billion dollar industry with trillions of more tax dollars planned in a global redistribution scam.

Before you get all upset, here are some more facts. After Revelle came up with his half baked theory, they ignored these key items. Nobody had any data on the amount of solar radiation we receive from the sun. And the planet Mars was heating up same as earth. So called climate scientists claimed it was not the sun. They decried skeptics as "junk science" and even "flat earth people".

If you have analyzed as many samples of acid gases, CO2 and others scrubbed by sea water, as I have you would also know how wacky this whole idea is.

*applause*

Bravo, Tantanman, bravo!

Today is the day that the decision on global warming happens. New rule to un-grandfather old polluting coal plants will force the closure of old dirty plants. If you believe in global warming great less co2 less mercury less etc., etc., etc., and less etc. If you don't believe in global warming great, less pollution. We all win.

Steve

Okay, this thread simply will not die a quiet death. This is NOT THE FORUM FOR THIS TOPIC. Let's please stop posting to it, and stick to discussing citrus. If you have a penchant for this topic, there are many other places you can discuss this hotly debated topic. Let's stick to citrus on this forum, please, Steve. I've asked nicely before, you agreed. Not sure why you're resurrecting this after being asked to take this elsewhere.

Patty S.

Patti You are right I forgot that I agreed to let it die. I am so sorry I just was so excited to hear that the old grandfathered coal plants are going into extinction. I am an environmentalist that has experienced positive warming that shows despite this cold winter.

I will let it die

Sorry; Steve

Steve, the jet stream and high pressure are just messed up..Once the high pressure moves out of the west and heads towards me, you'll go back to cold and I will finally get the warmth I have not had for two years..

I am with Patty by the way but had to express my frustration with this dreaded cold we have had for years, because this was at the top again. It's not getting any warmer here, in fact colder.
45 today and 49 yesterday,,Averages are suppose to be in the 70's//What a joke
My citrus are doing nothing yet..Not a darn thing except for budding because it's so cold.

Mike

This post was edited by meyermike_1micha on Thu, May 29, 14 at 16:52

I just re-read this and thought It is to bad I did't write this in 2012 when we were smashing records over and over all over this planet.

Steve

Steve, every where but here in my neck of the woods. Already into the 40's by next week((((