CHC's and container-mix weight query

17 years ago

Hi all, quick question about using CHC as the primary potting medium - when properly hydrated, do these make for an overall lighter-weight container mix than, say, something that's a combo of fir bark, Turface, perlite, crushed granite, sand, other, etc.? I've spent literally hours researching this forum and other sites reading up on best container mixes for citrus and for other plants needing high aeration + good moisture holding, and am thinking of getting a bale of CHCs to use on repotting my four small citrus and also use in my potted figs. What I need to know is something of the "heft" to the stuff for a couple reasons: a.) ease of moving containers around, and b.) stability under wind conditions (my figs can get top-heavy quickly and keel over in a brisk breeze if I don't have the pots half-buried in the ground). The seedling key limes and kumquat are still small, not as much a concern, but for the bigger plants going into large pots, I'd really like to know general comparison of how folks using all or mostly CHC for their pot medium rate it weight-wise compared with a mix such as bark/peatmoss/sand, for instance. And is it preferable to have something added to the CHCs just to add more weight and/or inorganic components? Thanks!

Sherry

Comments (8)

lemonsforchams
17 years ago
It is much lighter.For your heavier trees and for better mositure retention,I would mix 1/2 CHC with 1/4 aquatic plant soil(available at home depot or use laterite in pebble form) ans 1/4 coir.This will gove soem stability,allow for ease of movement in your pots,and hold a bit more water without comprimising drainage/aeration.That is my 2 cents,but I have more experience with ficus trees,tahn citrus,though thi smix is what I used on my Myers lemon,but I added soem long fibered spahgnum moss to this as well.This mix is also ideal for orchids and nepenthes....any epiphyte does well in it,in my experience.It makes a great terrarium mix when mixed with a bit of perlite also.Hope this helps.Andrew
girlfromthegarden
Original Author
17 years ago
Thanks, Andrew, this was helpful. What exactly is aquatic plant soil comprised of? (I'm assuming it's got to have something with weight to keep the plants from floating up off the bottom of ponds or tanks, whatever they're being grown in - ??) Do all Home Depots carry it, or just places with the smallish patio-pond displays and equipment? (that might require finding a specialty shop around here, though I know some of the stores do have the ponds and sometimes the plants that are grown in them). I'm not familiar with laterite, either. More info? any similar products or components of the aquatic soil that are desirable? I'm assuming it balances out the lightweight capacity of the CHC's mainly, or does it add something else of its own?

Sherry
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Peat starts out at a very low pH and is adjusted upward by adding lime, which also supplies Ca and Mg. Coir starts at a pH that is already too high (around 7.0) for container media, leaving no chance for using lime as a Ca/Mg source. So what are you using that ensures your plants are getting the Ca and Mg they need, and how do you address the high pH issue that needs no attention with bark/peat-based soils? How do you know you're getting your coir/CHCs from a reputable packager? and that the solubles level isn't excessively high ..... until your plants are surviving or failing? Seems like an unnecessary risk to me. Lots of things become the rage when people don't understand the product well. It's only after they've been brought into the light that people start to say, "Hey wait a minute". Lots of people simply decided that coir (or CHC's) are a great idea based on the fact that THEY bought into the idea that peat is not renewable and they wanted to feel they made a wise choice in switching. Look at the impossible claims you hear about products like Superthrive, Eleanor's VF-11, Bloom-booster fertilizers ...... A few people repeat something they heard someone else say, and pretty soon it's an urban legend and touted as the best thing since sliced bagels. There are reasons commercial ops don't use significant amounts of coir and CHCs in media - cost, high levels of soluble salts (are common) and a pH too high to deal with w/o acidification of the irrigation water. "Isnt the point of drainage layer so there isnt a saturated layer at the bottom of the pot?" It may be your intent, but wishing it would work that way doesn't change physics - no matter how hard you wish. 'Drainage layers' do not promote drainage unless the particles in the drainage layer are no larger than 2.1x the size of the particles in the soil. If they are larger than that, water 'perches' in the soil above the 'drainage layer'. "If the styrofoam was rock I could understand the water perch idea." Rock or big chunks of foam make no difference. The water reacts the same way. "The op was asking about making containers lighter. Annuals and alot of plants dont need the 20+ gallon size of large containers for root colonizing. Why have a 100 pound pot if you dont have to. What would you suggest?" One of the best ways, from a scientific perspective, would be to upturn another (plastic) container inside of the one you're planting in and put a screen over the drain hole. Second best would be to insert a false bottom with a wick through it. You could also partially fill the container with soda bottles or milk jugs with screw-on caps. You CAN use chunks of foam or peanuts to reduce the amount of soil needed to fill a container, but these layers of material in the bottom of containers do nothing for drainage. Al
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Matt your right I did meant to list 0,0,60 I got all the p i need in the rose and azalia food. I add a good amount of the grass fertilizer and very little of the muriate of potash since it is so powerful. The overall mix has azalia food worked in the soil. it has micronutrients. I then combined. the 33-0-0 with a small amount of 0-0-60 such that the ratio of the food comes out to be 10-0-4. the p is 0 because I get so much in the 12-24-18. I was not aware of the chlorine content of the potash product of mine. I will try adding more vinegar to the solution to compensate for the chlorine I simply don't have the money to buy the expensive foods or grafted trees. I have seen treads by northerner that have spent close to a $1000 on trees alone. I am aware that I can grow a large kumquat tree successfully at great expenses. Thanks again for the advice. I will continue on the citrus but at a lower level of energy. Steve
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The difference between 'small' and 'medium' isn't that much. What it really means is that per square inch, the larger chips have a smaller surface area. I know that might not make sense at first, but if you think about it, a bunch of tiny little marbles in a fishbowl has a much larger surface area than a bowling ball would, even though the volume of the smaller marbles added together is less than the bowling ball. For small CHC, this means there is less air in the soil solution and the roots are more tightly surrounded than in larger CHC. Make of that what you will, because I really can't see the major difference other than aesthetics and root-growth in smaller trees. Long story short, I've got my first cutting, a pre-grafting learning experience, planted in medium CHC. It's doing just fine outside in the wind and weather. I've even tipped it out of the container to see tiny little roots growing into the 'gigantic' CHC. It looks kind of funny in the pot, but other than that it's doing just fine and has a good grip on its 'soil'.
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MikeP46
17 years ago
I have switched from 100% potting soil to anywhere from 75% to 100% CHC. It is at least 50-60% lighter than before. Citrus trees are not extremely fussy about the %CHC in the mix. Unless your trees are top-heavy and your pots made of ultra-light plastic, they should not fall over. As long as your trees do not stand in wet soil, any good potting mix will do. Adequate water (allow top 3 inches to dry before rewatering), good air circulation and good fertilizer with trace elements are key.

Mike
girlfromthegarden
Original Author
17 years ago
Appreciate the further info, Mike. I just spoke with the local Turface distributor here in the area and they've moved their inventory a month ahead of schedule from the previous location which is a 45-minute drive one-way from where I live, to their Noblesville affiliate located two miles from my house (!!). So I'm planning to get a 50# bag of that (MVP product, under $12) and probably a bale of the medium CHCs from orchardmix.com, and work with some combination mix of that for the citrus, and probably tweak the recipe for the figs (with potting mix, dolomitic lime, perlite, etc.).

The one Persian lime I have (bought it two winters ago at a box store) is looking pretty shabby compared to the seedling citrus I have, lost most of its leaves but still flowers and the leaf color of what's remaining has always been good, just has *a lot* of naked branches. Does this need any special fertilizer once repotted, to encourage new leaf growth on the branches? would some minimal pruning stimulate new growth? The shape of the tree isn't that great, either (it's got a "lean" to it, probably one of the culls from a nursery selling off to HD and Lowes). On the other hand, the seedling key limes and the young kumquat are starting to go great guns since I added Osmocote CRF and watered with dilute soluble fert for acid-loving plants (Schultz for azaleas, etc.), new leaves are healthy dark green, but the Persian has always looked stunted since I got it (lost most of its leaves moving indoors last fall, though it recovers better in summer outside). I want to boost its foliage coverage first, before worrying about it flowering again (though it's gone through at least three rounds of flowering since winter, just hasn't set any limes). What works best with the CHCs, the slow-release ferts or a combo of those with the soluble used when watering?

Note: the odd thing is how the two grafted trees I've had, including my Meiwa kumquat from briteleaf.com which stayed meager looking and died after one year (but gave me a few fruits first), seem to struggle more than the ones I've started from seed. Wonder if it's being on own roots that keep the seedling ones more vigorous??

Sherry
MikeP46
17 years ago
I use a combination of slow fertilizers on a monthly basis. As I have a fairly long growing season, i add fertilizer almost until November. Being in zone 5, I would stop fertilizer around August, if not sooner for you. As for your Persian Lime, I would repot in your fresh soil and see how it goes. Some trees, no matter what you do, will not recover. Then again, I had a tree that lay dormant in a pot for six months, then suddenly explode with new growth. My point is, if you are patient and persistent, your lime tree will recover. It will not happen overnight. If your tree has many dead or dying branches, it may be more prudent to start with a new tree. Persian lime trees are easy to come by and are not expensive. Citrus trees go through cycles of new root growth followed by new leaf flushes during the spring and fall seasons. This again pertains mostly to established plants in containers using good growing habits. It took me several years to find a system that works for me, but that it what makes it fun! The joy of growing citrus comes with the experience. They are not kidding when they say "Patience is a virtue." Good luck,
Mike
girlfromthegarden
Original Author
17 years ago
The Persian lime's branches are still very much green and alive, they have leaves and push flowers, just have a gangly naked appearance from having dropped most of the foliage, so I don't think the plant is anywhere near death, simply acts like it's missing something (maybe needed more light, more nutrients or more balanced aeration/moisture, which the CHCs may be the key to). I think it's going to perk up being outside now that we have truly warm weather in our area finally, but it needs the re-potting desperately for a fresh start. I'll take your advice and give it some time once I get it into a better medium for the roots to grow in. I'd truly rather keep this one alive, as I wouldn't spend the money for getting a new one shipped here after the experience with the Meiwa (even at the decent prices comparitively speaking that Brite Leaf offers). Having citrus is more a novelty and a fun experiment for me, whereas figs are a passion and far easier to grow here in Indiana (they don't have to live indoors in winter, just dormant out in the garage). The limes and kumquat I have are a learning process for me, to figure out how to respond to more finicky requirements for healthy growth (kind of like my potted blueberries are), and with the Persian lime, I can tell there's some requirement not being met, which I'm determined to figure out if there's any way I can.

I had a tree that lay dormant in a pot for six months, then suddenly explode with new growth

- that was sort of my experience with the seedling kumquat, it was lazy for a while, and then started having more frequent and healthier flushes of growth. I decided it correlated with my being more diligent to add a soluble fertilizer when watering, plus being careful not to keep it too wet between waterings.

It took me several years to find a system that works for me, but that it what makes it fun! The joy of growing citrus comes with the experience

Yeah, I'd say that's exactly why I'm trying it - it's not like shooting fish in a barrel, there's some finesse to it. More of a delicate fine-tuning, rather than randomly paying attention once in awhile, citrus need focus and time investment (kinda like real relationships :-)).

They are not kidding when they say "Patience is a virtue."

oh I've got tons of experience in the Deferred Gratification Department (heh..) so waiting on good things is second nature - but the encouragement's definitely appreciated. I'll start with getting the roots in a more happy environment and then see how the plants respond from there. It's good being able to ask in here about mid-course corrections, thanks so much for the pointers.

Sherry
lemonsforchams
17 years ago
the aquatic plant soil is at all Home Depots that I know of.I a fired and expanded clay granul that will nor break down and is a bit heavy,but alos contains iron and is a good additon for drainage.Latterite is a sinilar substance.It is an iron-rich clay,but it often comes in a powdery form...you don't want that.You can ordere latterite from www.petplace.com,it is used in aquariums for its iron content.It is not so heavy that adding it will make your pots unberably weighted down,but it will give some stability to the root ball.
lemonsforchams
17 years ago
Sorry about the horrible spelling I sometimes leave in my wake...LOL.Busy and in a rush nearly always.

CHC's and container-mix weight query

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CHC's and container-mix weight query

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lemonsforchams

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girlfromthegarden
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