I don't know where to start; but if you don't understand the difference between percent dry weight and percent of a solution, I wouldn't be trying to outsmart Bayer... they are pretty damned good at what they do. Next, I guess is that the time to treat CLM with imidcloprid is at the first flush, when populations are small and the systemic affect has time to get established. The strength of Bayer Advanced is just barely able to be effective against CLM; but it is the strongest imidicloprid you can buy in the USA without a pest applicators license. I don't think the rose food granular would even touch CLM.. unless you were going to put a wheelbarrow load on your tree.
Having said that, I am happy to say we don't have CLM where I am growing my lemons; but as a 5th generation California agriculturalist, I do know enough about it to hate the little buggers. I am a big fan of Bayer and their agri products; FYI, I pay about $85 a quart for Bayer Imidicloprid (Leverage); but that is sufficient for about 5,000 Meyer lemon trees.

I had young trees in ground in South Florida that were hit hard by CLM to the point I was worried. Maybe you will have better luck then me but CLM laughed at at the Bayer Advanced Fruit & Vegetable. Spinosad is what I am currently using for CLM control.

You cannot safely do what you propose with the granulated product. In another thread, I suggested that you call the number listed on the label, but I'll tell you right now that their hair will stand up on end!

You need to use the product that is labeled for use on your edible trees or find other solutions, as did Mike80.

My solution was to remove every leaf by hand. Then again, I dont let CLM get out of hand to begin with. Not saying that is what happened but I have heard that they really dont affect the fruiting or taste of fruit. I read it is mostly cosmetic but if it really bad it will do damage.

Systemics take a while to begin to work so you would have had to use the systemic before you seen the damage anyway. Other than that I dont know what to do about CLM

If you notice, the CLM usually don't affect the first flush; that is the time to treat; they are actually there, but populations are small. If you wait until you see a big infestation, it is probably too late for that year. Next year, watch for the first flush and begin treatment then; I think you will have better luck.

Here is my guess. Bayer is using two different grades of imidacloprid and they have made a purified form to use on fruits and veggies, at greater cost. This was the case when I ran an ag chemical plant.

Blaze, removing the leaves simply defoliates your tree, and does nothing to stop the infestation. Your tree needs those leaves to continue with photosynthesis, so leave them on the tree. If you're worried about the larvae, just smash it inside the leaf by pinching it. You're spending all that time defoliating your tree, so if you're so compelled, just squish the little buggers. CLM is mainly a cosmetic issue, unless you have brand new, young trees in an area with high disease pressure. UC Riverside Citrus Variety Collection doesn't even bother to treat their trees. The best control we have here in S. California is a combination of Spinosad and either Neem or Volk oil, sprayed in the evening before infestation (and that can vary from area to area) every 3 weeks during the season for a max of 6 sprayings. Here for us in S. Calif., we usually do not see CLM until summer. So, I spray usually at the end of July. Then, I spray again around end or middle of August, and then one more time. If your temps do not allow for hort oils (over 85 degrees and it can literally fry your leaves), then just spray with Spinosad. For those in other areas of the country where you're seeing CLM with spring and late summer flush, you'll need to try 3 - 3 time apps, catching the very first sign of flush in the spring. Using a systemic application of Imidicloprid will really only work if you apply at least 2-3 weeks before CLM hits, so right before flush. A little tough to guess, but that's how it has to be applied. If you're already seeing damage, it is most likely too late. You'd be better off using Spinosad and a hort oil. Be sure to spray in the evening, after bees have gone back to the hive for the evening.

Patty S.

Here is a link that might be useful: UC IPM: CLM

Yeah dont worry Patty it wasnt many leaves:-) But one branch did look a little funny. I usually check out my new trees and remove any leaves I dont like before I "introduce" it to the backyard. Im not to worried about losing a few leaves. But I do agree if its a large infestation to do what you said.

Tantanman, thank you for your response. THIS is the kind of information I am looking for. Your suggestion makes sense as there would obviously need to be costly processing to remove undesirable or even dangerous compounds. That's something I am willing to pay 4x the price for.I wonder if Bayer would give me that information or not... Probably not.

For the other poster...by the way, I'm very much smart enough to know the difference between an ounce of fluid and an ounce of weight. You obviously don't know that for water or dilute aqueous solutions it is the same thing. To verify that the concentrate is indeed a dilute solution, I measured out 5 fluid ounces on my digital kitchen scale and it was 5 ounces by weight exactly.

I know you're supposed to spray it before the first flush but I just moved here and had no idea how bad the CLM infestation would be (there's miles of abandoned groves around me). After my first flush was devoured, I saw that the trees were just nubbing out in preparation for the second flush so I wanted to try to catch it in time. Hopefully the third flush will be protected too but we will see.

FYI, one of the trees is a Meyer and so is pushing new flowers. I have clipped them all off so the bees don't get into them. Also, I already purchased the fruit and vegetable version and used it exactly as the label said. I just want to get to the bottom of why it's so much more expensive than the rose formulation.

And I can not seem to find Spinosad around here. I guess I will have to buy some online. I definitely don't want to be using systemically if I don't have to, but believe me when I say I was smashing 4-8 per leaf per day, trying to get them while they were small ... HUNDREDS OF THEM A DAY and could not keep up with it. I've never seen anything like it and I don't want to lose $90 trees over it.

Wow scary stuff. I just came back from Riverside yesterday and I was thinking what it would be like to fight CLM on all those trees.

slopfrog, I sure understand. My property (which has about 65 citrus trees) is adjacent to an 80 acre abandoned Valencia orange orchard. I treat my trees because I have huge disease pressure. And because many of my citrus are young. But, it would be very rare to lose a tree due to CLM. The leaves might look a little gnarly, but they can continue to do their job, which is why you shouldn't remove them as one of the other list members did. This is the recommendation of the researchers at UCR. And I, too, had the same experience when I moved into my place at the end of August a few years ago. Damage was already done. So, I am trying to be good about treating. Monterey makes a Spinosad spray. You can get it on Amazon.com.

Here is a link that might be useful: Monterey Garden Insect Spray

Well I guess it worked considering I haven't had an infestation since then and fruit and growth quality wasnt affected. But if I see them again I will smash them, instead of pulling off the leaves, just for you Patty...lol

I have a couple of bee hives in my backyard (as a hobby!) so the use of imidicloprids or spinosad is out of the question!
I have started using sticky traps and lures in my backyard to protect my orange and grapefruit trees. A few companies produce the lures for the leafminer Isca and Alphascents, there may be a few others out there as well. if anyone is looking for a pesticide-free garden look these companies up!

What companies? I have been looking for sticky traps such as those but I cant find any around here.

blazeaglory, here is a picture I just snapped of the trap I have out right now, its from ISCA Technologies (I had to double check which one, haha). I tried alphascents last year this one seems to be holding up longer...so Im sticking with these guys for now.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:588152}}

No image:-( But I found some anyways. Thanks:-)

There are quite a few products available with much stronger concentrations of imidacloprid and cheaper (in terms of the active ingredient) than the Bayer product.

If you don't care about it being labeled for citrus you could go with something like Benefit or a variety of others (though in terms of chemical this isn't the best bargain).

If you want it to be labelled for citrus (and other fruits and vegetables) look for things like Nuprid, Admire, Montana 2F ($90 per gallon, 21.4% imidacloprid), Macho 2.0FL ($22 per pint, 21.4% imidacloprid) - and so forth and so on.

There are a huge number of imidacloprid products labelled for citrus now and Bayer's is not priced competitively.

Ive been reading that systemic pesticides are one of the reasons why bee's are dying out. If I can avoid using them, I will. At my house, with not many large trees, I can get away with hand/spot treating everything. Anything larger and Ill use the hose end sprayer.

blaze, the problem hasn't pointed to ALL systemics but to the class of chemicals called neonictotinoids, in which imidacloprid belongs. This class of chemicals is being banned on one country after another...following massive bee die-offs. If I'm not mistaken, France has banned it for over 10 years. This is about the only systemic that remains labeled for food crops, which is why the users of these chemicals are going to fight for continued use until their last breath, lol.

And the problem isn't only with citrus, but with any agricultural or ornamental use of these chemicals. The issue isn't only with honeybees, either. Hopefully, as more and more researchers are entering the arena, the mystery can eventually be solved. I have a gut feeling that it is a very complex issue.

Here is a link that might be useful: click here

Yes I agree it is a very complex issue. Especially when big money is involved and growers who are die hard fans of certain chemicals. It seems like Europe bans everything first while america kinda lets things slide for a while. Wonder if cash and lobbyists have anything to do with it...hehehe

I've said for many years that we would have all of the effective alternative pesticides we could possibly want once the big chemical companies could figure out how to make money on them.

I just read your link. Its pretty sad how a billion dollars a year is more important than a possible worldwide epidemic.

Now Im not saying these types of systemics are solely responsible for the CCD but Im beginning to think they are. The least we can do as a country, or the EPA, is to find other systemics and temporarily ban neonictotinoids (I know it'll never happen) and see if the colonies begin to re generate and function properly during the absence of the suspect systemics.

Another suspect is cell phone towers and the rapid shift of our magnetic poles.

blazeaglory, sorry about the link I dont know why the image was taken down.... I think ISCAs traps are just a tiny bit cheaper, the lures are priced about the same. Hope the products work for you as well as they did for me.

As an amateur beekeeper, Im glad I got a discussion going on the use of these toxic insecticides. I think the decline can be linked to continuous or repeated exposure of neonicotinoids to bees. It makes sense that if an insect is continuously exposed to neonicotinoids over a period of time then we can also expect a long term effect on the health of the bees.

I like the idea of using pheromone products to address pests like CLM. If insecticide use is reduced with the help of these products then I can rest a little easy knowing my bees are not constantly eating neonicotinoid-laced pollen.

Well, I'm sorry to say that it was a complete waste of money. The second flush is being devoured as well. In addition, I looked close and actually have scales all over the place too... Ugh. I neglected to mention that they were in containers for now, so I bet the rain and the necessary watering just flushed it all out before it could be absorbed. I would think scales would die pretty quick from imidacloprid.

I am going to try the traps and spinosad, and if that doesn't work I am seriously going to buy mosquito netting and wrap it around the trees when they flush. Ridiculous.

As has been pointed out the CLM isn't a deal breaker - it's mostly an aesthetic thing.

How young are the trees? How bad is the scale infestation? I'd be far more worried about the scale than the CLM. When I overwintered my trees last winter there was one that was difficult to get to so I didn't do a great job of spraying it or scouting it for scale or honeydew. It wasn't until the leafdrop started that I got in for a closer look. By the time I had the scale under control (imidacloprid) it almost completely defoliated.

If the trees are young and the scale infestation is out of control and there are no flower buds then I would dose it again with imidacloprid (and remove any flower buds during the next few flushes to protect the bees - imidacloprid should never be applied before a flush or when flowering is expected).

It does take some time for it to be taken up and you should be mindful of leeching when watering for about a week.

You could also manually wash each leaf or use oil sprays or etc. I'm sure rhizo or someone will chime in with organic options. But do get the scale in check.

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Until recently there was zero scientific evidence of the role of imidacloprid in CCD.

Note that the link above talks about the toxicity of imidacloprid to honeybees. It has been known for a very long time that imidacloprid is toxic to honeybees even in small doses. That's why every label indicates that it should not be applied when flowering is expected. The concentration in the plant drops with time. A whole host of insecticides are toxic to honeybees but are still considered (mostly) safe to use in terms of honeybees when label directions are followed.

What had NOT (until about a month ago) been proven was any linkage between CCD (disappearing bees) and imidacloprid. There's a new paper from the Harvard School of Public Health to be published in June ( http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2012-releases/colony-collapse-disorder-pesticide.html ) that *does* appear to prove there's a connection to CCD even at very small doses. So yes, most neonictotinoids will likely be banned in the near future.