I'll look around tomorrow and get back to you. I have a meyer lemon that I purchased about 6 weeks ago and it is doing well but, I've checked the root ball and it definitely needs to be transplanted...the center of the root ball appears to be solidly encased in sand. I also have several other plants, especially a couple of figs, that I would love to try in a soilless mix.

Meyermike...I was able to locate reptile fir bark. Is that correct? What else do I need. Thanks.

No way!!!!!!!!

Is there anyway you can post a picture? Do you know how to do this? I can teach you..Let us do this asap..ok..

Mike..:-) When you are ready tell me..

I won't have access to a camera for about 2 hours but the bark is "zoo med repti bark". The have a close up of it on their web site zoomed.com. When my camera gets back, I'll post a picture of it with a coin so that you can get a better idea as to the actual size. Thanks.

gg.

Are you looking to make the 5.1.1 mix or the gritty mix for your one tree..I personally use both, altough the gritty mix outlasts the 5.1.1 mix by a couple years..

Both are great though. I love the 5.1.1 mix personaly..

Let me know...

The 5.1.1 because I'm not too good about watering at times. I can't figure out how to post a picture of the bark...help!

Can you use photobucket?

It is free....

here it is...

Here is a link that might be useful:

Mike, why do you prefer the 5:1:1 mix over the gritty? I was thinking about switching some of my smaller plants into it just to test it out vs. the gritty mix and would love to hear why.

Crud..I can't pull it up here at work..I will take a gander when I get home for sure...

In the mean time, get yourself a bag of perlite, is that possible?

Also either a bag of peatmoss, or pumice, or Napa floor, or turface..?

A small bag of lime too.

That is if you want to make your own..

If you want to make a better version of a store bought one, or one from a nursery, we can go that route too..Just let me know..ok

Mike

Mike: Not a problem making my own. I'll go to Agway tomorrow morning to get peat moss and lime. I already have perlite. I also have about a half a bag of espoma soil perfecter that I use in the garden which is the same product as Turface though I have read in a posting that the particles are larger than Turface's. Maybe we could throw some of that in? Or use it to improve the store bought soil I have? Thanks!!

Yes..Tell me something before we make it.

When do you put your tree outdoors and when do you bring it back in?
Do you winter your plant in full sun in the winter?
What are the temps like indoors all winter where you are going to keep it?
Will you have it in full sun outside?
Do you get a lot of rain?
How are your watering habits? Do you mind watering more frequently for a more vital plant, or do you want a few days to go by without watering at all?

I like my soilless mix to dry out every couple of days or so, and just the same outdoors..I also like my mix to be able to be rained on often without fear of rot..Let me know your growing conditions..

MIke

I have only had it about 2 months now and I've been carrying it in and out of the house depending on the temperature which has been crazy here in CT. Two weekends ago it was in the high 80's and this week we had freeze and frost warnings.

During the winter, all my plants are kept in a sunroom that has a south/southwest exposure. The temperature in the room during the day, if the sun is out, probably averages 75 to 80. The thermostat in that room is set to 62 so that is what it would be on cloudy days and at night. In the summer, I move everything to the appropriate location outside. So yes, it would be kept in full sun during the summer.

As far as rain goes, we really don't get a lot here but you never know.

Thinking about my watering habits, I'm really good about it in the summer when my plants are outdoors...they really do have to be monitored daily especially when in full sun (I have a couple of figs and brugmansia among others). In the winter, I check my plants about every 5-6 days because that is all I've had to do. I would be willing to check the lemon (and maybe another couple of citrus) more frequently.

Hope this helps.

Yes it does...Let me mull on this in my sleep and we will come up with a great soilless mix your plants will love for your cultural habits and conditions..:-)

Hey Mike: Got everything you told me to purchase. What formula did you come up with?

So if you have the repti bark, this is what I would do...Shoot I can't pull up the reptibark again here at work..

Ok watch for my help tonight sometime..ok

I really need to get the whole picture on that stuff and the size...

So I will post and help tonight..:-)

I'll be here!!

Gg..PERFECT bark size!!!

Listen you can either use a gritty mix that lasts longer than and is more durable, or the 5.1.1..The reason I like the 5.1.1 is because I because I have an easier time watering in it than the gritty one. Yup, after all this time, I am still using my wooden dowels for the gritty..

I will just have to change out my plants in a shorter time when the 5.1.1. mix starts to compact, but that will still be a long way off..:-)

So if you want the 5.1.1. Here we go..There are a couple of tricks if you don't like the peat component which breaks down.

Because you couldn't find the composted fines, we are going to do it different..4.1.1
4 parts of Repti-bark, 1 part of either peat, or one part conditioner, and one part perlite...Please post a pic and let me see it ok...Add 1 teaspoon of lime per gallon and mix well..This will provide the Ca and Mg that most fertilizers don't have and bring your Ph to where it should be..

If you choose the grittier mix..

1 part bark, and that is the PERFECT bark!!!!
1 part of the turface...If it has a lot of dust, make sure you rinse that off or sift it out.
1 part perlite since you do not have the Chicken granite grit..
Add 1tbsp of gypsum per gallon since this provides the Ca and overtime you water use 1/4 teaspoon of epsom salts along with your regular fertilizer..

If you can get your hands on Foliage Pro do it. The best stuff in the world for my plants..

Make the mix you want, and let me see the finished product ok..

Mike..:-)

Mike: I'll mix it up and and post a picture. I already have Foliage Pro! You are too good. Thanks!

repti bark! Is this the pine bark shaving for hamster's.?

No,,,Bark..:-)Take at look at the picture that gg linked us too..Great stuff..It's uncomposted pine or fir bar..

Thanks Mike. I had a look at the above link that gg24 posted earlier,
In viewing your above posting mix. Nothing is mentioned on the type of container that gg24 should use for this fast flowing soil mix. Should a clay container having a 1 hole at the bottom be used?

Every container should have a drainage hole.

The type of container doesn't matter with this superior mix.

Josh

Sorry Josh, there is no superior mix for growing citrus in containers some work better than others. As far as containers, yes it matters.

Mike: Sorry I have gotten back earlier but my internet has been out all day because we had a big thunder storm last night. The repti bark is fir and I planted the lemon into a clay pot...I use clay whenever possible. The root system was an absolute disaster and I don't know how the plant has survived. The area directly under the trunk looked (and felt like) cement and roots solidly encased this blob. It really took me a while to clear it all out. I did notice today that a few of the leaves were getting a little yellow but I'm sure (lol) that with the new mix and the foliage pro, the problem will be resolved. I also transplanted a few other plants that haven't been doing as well as I hoped. The drainage is amazing in this mix! One of the other plants I transplanted into the new mix is a begonia...I had watered it yesterday and it got drenched during the storm last night. When it took it out of the pot today, I was shocked by the mud (literally) in the bottom of the pot. I know this would never happen with this mix. I'm impressed and I hope my plants are. I'm definitely changing all my plants to this mix.

Where is the picture of the finished product? lol

Awsome..Wait till you see how good it feels to rest easy and know that while it is raining so much outside, sometimes for days, that your babies are enjoying every inch of rain instead of drowning in it!

If you planted in clay, just watch for watering more frequently in summer. Get a feel for your mix when wet, as to when dry. Even use a stick. or wooden dowel to check for moisture before watering..You will know your soil and watering needs by the time you bring them indoors..

A clay container with a hole at the bottom is fine..You know what I do anyways? I hammer the hole even bigger at the bottom of my containers, then I put some sort of coffee filter or screen at the bottom, then put in the mix. The bigger the hole on the bottom of my containers, the better. I like the fact the roots breathe even more.. I will post a couple pics of my pots and soil tomorrow..

Gg, your plants are going to thank you if you have at least some healthy roots left on them.Keep your fingers crossed! Don't forget NOT to put your plants in full sun for a few days until your plants adjust to the transplanting..

Hi Josh!@!!!

Mike..:-)

Oh and one more thing!! Did you make sure you filled in the soil around ALL the roots? I usually use a small stick or pencil, and wiggle it between the roots as I watch the soil fall even deeper into the pot. Then I pressure water into the pot into the roots as even more of this loose, bigger particle mix fills in the spaces between the roots..Make sure, ok..You do not want some roots dying of thirst while others are watered..

Mike

gg24. How about some photos like you promised in the above posting.

Mike: The picture of the finished product is on my camera lol. I'll post it tomorrow. The other plants do have some healthy roots. I was just shocked to see the mess in the pot from the watering and the downpour. I'm surprised I have any thriving plants! I'll double check the roots tomorrow after I buy more "repti bark". Thanks again.

Here is a picture of the mix. I'll post a picture of the plant in the mix tomorrow.

Have a nice night!

Here is a link that might be useful:

Gg..It looks awesome...Just to make sure it holds enough moisture, tell me exactly how you made it and if you limed..

Most important, the particles are much bigger than what you tree is use too, so just make sure like I said above, that this mix fills in around ALL the roots well..

Looking good!

Mike..:-)

The mix does look good, the bark looks nice and dark (not much sap-wood at all), and the consistency
seems very open. I share Mike's curiosity about the mix. Do you have something for water-retention other
than the perlite and the bark? I can't tell from the pic. If not, you'll definitely want to work the mix in around
the roots as Mike suggests, and you'll also want to keep your tree moist - this might mean watering every
two days while it adjusts.

Obviously, keeping the tree in a shaded, protected area will help eliminate moisture-loss after the re-potting;
and, also, the cooler soil will be conducive to new root-colonization.

In my opinion, you have constructed a superior soil that will serve you and your tree/s well. Although this soil
requires more frequent watering and fertilization (fertigation), it pays off in plant vitality and peace of mind.

Well done, and congratulations for taking the leap to a less organic soil!

Josh

I did as Mike suggested...4 parts bark, 1 part peat and 1 part perlite. I also added a teaspoon of lime per gallon. Sorry the picture wasn't clearer...I was using my cell phone. Compared to some orchid bark that I have used, the repti bark did not have any dust or dirt on it. Also, I didn't notice any little sticks in it. I guess that is why it is the #1 selling reptile bark. LOL. I do wish I could find the pine fines because I'm sure it would be less expensive.

Mike: I did check the roots and found several spots where I felt I needed to fill in with the medium. Thanks for the additional tip!!

So far I have transplanted the lemon, a fig and a couple of my disappointment plants: night blooming cereus that has never bloomed and an orange jasmine twig that hasn't grown a leaf since I got it last fall. Also a bougainvillea (not a disappointment) that I think will benefit greatly from this mix. I'll do a bunch more plants this week.

One more question..at what point temperature wise, do you leave you lemon out all night?

Hi I'm relatively new to citrus and am having a tough time giving up on soil but I am starting to see the light. I am concerned that my lemons and limes might dry out sometime if life gets busy. Any thoughts on either leaving 1-3 inches of a soil- sand/perlite/bark mixture on the bottom of the pot?

I figure this would leave most of the roots well drained but having a little moisture retaining medium at the bottom in case of drought. Just a thought.

I wouldn't..The price you'll pay for convienence will kill your tree eventually..:-(

What happens when you have to bring it inside for a few months and the bottom half that is holding a perched water table that takes forever to dry out?
Then you are talking about a fast case of root rot..
Or how about if it rains for days on end?

I would rather have no trees if life gets to busy to care for them properly, than to worry about rotting them out.:-)

Mike

Whoa, those are nice looking bark fines! I'm using earth-gro's bark mulches even though the label says "forest products" because that was the only thing I could find. I wonder if they're killing my lemon trees somehow...

Gotta go check out the pet stores nearby to see if I can get those reptile barks!

Both Petco and Petsmart carry it. Good Luck!

Home Depot sells pine bark nuggets that are about that small (as the reptile things). Is that acceptable? Should we be repotting our lemons now if they are covered in tiny green lemons and many flowers? If not, when? I always either have flowers or lemons.

I tested using pine bark without adding perlite or peat.
And found this mix does not offer the aeration needed for growing citrus in container. Although this mix may work for some. I feel using chc (coconut husk chips) and peat a much better mix for container citrus. I strongly suggest to test your container mix within your growing zone and give it 3-4 weeks time to accumulate to the mix.
Aeration and drainage is the key factor in growing container citrus. Fertilization is another.

Plant54, why didn't you add peat or perlite..

Even I know that coco chips alone holds water much more than bark I have planted in just pure coco chips and lost a many citrus..In fact I have a full bag in my garage that I still haven't used if you want them...Not to say my plants did suffer from an inability to take up certain nutrients from them , in particular Ca...All i dealt with on a continual basis besides root rot was yellowing leaves..

The point is, is that
By not adding even peat, you are not being fair to your trees nor to the people that make their mixes correctly with bark instead of coco....Just a thought.

Have a nice day..:-)

Mike

Mike: Just want to let you know how well the 4.1.1 (reptile bark, peat & perlite), with lime added, has worked for me this first week. My lemon had just begun to show signs of yellowing leaves (which led my to this forum). The yellowing has stopped, I haven't lost a leaf and I believe I noticed some greening up today. Also, Foliage Pro has done an incredible job on my other plants after about 3 waterings. I have a hoya that I swear hasn't grown in 3 years and it is growing like crazy!

I can't thank you enough for all your advice.

PS. Because of your photos, I ordered an Oro Blanco from Four Winds. I will never look at your pictures again. LOL

Mike, coco chips and coconut husk chips(chc) is not the same. Ive seen coco chips in bags at Wal-Mart sold as a mulch If I recall correctly those chips are very poisonous.

The chips I buy are in large compressed bails and need to be re hydrated, small compressed bricks are also available.

I once tested the (reptile bark, peat & perlite)and found it over a short period of time, being a few months the lack of aeration due to compaction and lack of drainage.

The average life span of a container grown citrus is 2 years. The most common killer is the soil mix. followed by over or under watering.

Hi plant54...

Coconut husk chips is what I meant....If you want mine, I would be glad to send them to you. They are from Sri Lanka.Top of the line stuff..All you have to do is cover shipping...

Good point about citrus.Soil mix after a couple of years, depending on what one uses, can compact severely killing our citrus..That is why anything I plan on not repotting after this period of time goes into the gritty mix...It far outlasts any mix I have ever made....Many people are not aware of why their plants die, and we are. Bravo..Wish I would of known this years ago..

Mike..:-)

"I once tested the (reptile bark, peat & perlite)and found it over a short period of time,
being a few months the lack of aeration due to compaction and lack of drainage"

Really? I have a hard time believing that.
Your statement flies in the face of everything we know about the 5-1-1.
Your experience is clearly the exception, and not the rule, if we conduct but
a cursory scan of the 5-1-1 reviews at GardenWeb.

And if THIS mix compacted in that short a period of time, then imagine how quickly a
coco muck mix will compact. Probably a matter of days, or hours even...if we extrapolate
a time-frame from your claim.

Josh

Plant54,

In reading over this thread again, making sure I did not miss any points. I noticed you stated this...

"repti bark! Is this the pine bark shaving for hamster's.?"

If you didn't even know about the repti bark till this thread, how could you have tested for a fair amount of time to compare to coconut husks? Not 2 years for sure. Am I missing something..?

My hats off to you if you can grow in coconut anything.

Josh,

I can tell you that everyone I know from across the country, from the deep south to the north, into the Carribeans is in love with the 5.1.1 mix over any mix, even with husks. In fact, my father's Aunt in the Carribeans has dumped all her coconut husk chips into the garden and has chosen bark it, because all her plants were rotting from compaction in less than a year, nutritional problems, and from many rains..I guess I just know more that like the 5.1.1 mix than any other as you do....
Does anyone here ever visit the "container forums"?
The percentage of those that are successful with coconut products, pales in comparison with pine bark..

Mike.:-)

The problem with some coconut husk products is that they have not been rinsed enough and may not have gone through the recommended cation exchange to remove any remaining sodium. The CHC I use came from Crystal Company.

Since I got into citrus this spring, I used CHC+sphagnum moss (4:1) to fill my pots. All three of the trees are doing very well.

I do have some blueberries, herbs and other trees in 5:1:1 mix and most are doing ok. I think my basil doesn't like the low pH.

Picture of my citrus:
Soon after receiving and repot (04/01/10)
{{gwi:584480}}

04/22/10 on Sudachi
{{gwi:584481}}

Hi mgk..

That is definatly a major problem..
Thank you for that.
What we are talking about is the duribilty of these products verses "bark", and the BEST mix for our citrus, or at least mine..

I myself have used coconut everything from the Crystal Company, and some of my citrus did well for a while too..In fact, I still have one planted in coir and chips from last year, by pure luck.
I will post a picture too.

After about a few weeks for some, for one 2 weeks, and then others 6 months or so, many have lost their citrus to the above problems I stated, especially compaction and root rot.
In fact, I know a local grower of rare orchids who only sold this product and then stopped selling coconut everything, because not only was he loosing some rare orchids, but also his citrus..He has now turned to selling "fir bark" again...

Hopefully your trees will look just as beautiful in a year or too. You are doing a good job thus far.
They are beautiful as we speak..Good luck

Mike

mgk65 nice photo. Your trees are doing GREAT. Im sure your good to go for the next 3-4 years.

I thought about using the same container as yours but I went with the hard plastic ones made by the same company. I love all the containers they make. I love the drainage and aeration along with the root pruning.

I started using the soft bags and moved up. I now use the soft bags for growing water lilies.

Besides growing citrus in chc. I also use them for growing.

Figs, Bananas, Coffea arabica, Theobroma cacao and others that are growing in well draining containers.
I also use them for newly planted fruit trees.

As long as your container has good drainage you will never have a problem with over watering.

Yet they hold water like a sponge and offer aeration to the root system when watered from the top.

I use it so much I order bails of it. I also order 25# bags of feritlizers.

meyermike_1micha I also looked at the postings. Can you suggest a (Personal soil mix for me). I live in zone 4, at times we get lots of rain, other times it very dry.

Besides your personal soil mix I hope your able a suggest a container.

Whats the pH levels in your (Personal mix),

Im out, meyermike_1micha is the man. Go for it Mike..

Hey MGK65. Nice plant...and wicked looking containers! Who is the mfr? And, everyone seems to know CHC I, except me. What is CHC I and who is the mfr?
After 15+ yrs. of having my citrus in 10-15 gal containers of whatever soil I had I finally tried meyermike's Pine
Bark/sphagnum-peat/perlite mix and after 3 - 4 wks the couple I've transplanted seem to love it.
Thanks.............t98