Sue..Poor baby..they giving you fits huh?..Dang cats and moles..sounds like you need to hire a garden watchman with a gun..LOL
I would NEVER prune a clematis DOWN to the ground unless that vine was wilted..you need to leave some leaf axils so the new vines can re-emerge from..I haven't the foggiest Idea what size the clematis are from Michigan Bulb or Bluestone Perennials..but if they are tiny little buggers ..you really should pot them up and grow them out in one gallon pots before putting in the gardens..if your clematis are only one season old...you really can't expect too much from them ..'cause remember hon they are SLEEP, CREEP and then LEAP VINES..are you keeping their roots moist?..I think you've done everything right..Your DoA,Fireworks,Wisley, and Elsa are all pruning group 2's If I'm not mistaken and won't hurt to prune them down to about 18 inches or so to help them focus on the roots if they are young plants..when did you plant those?..Jeanne

Thank God for you Jeanne-

I just ordered DoA from Bluestone so I don't have it yet but Fireworks went into the garden 2 springs ago and is only 8-10 inches tall w/1 bud; Elsa and Wisley went into the garden early last summer; Elsa looks good except for 2 bean stalks as stems; Wisley has 1 bean stalk stem. I cut them both back to 18 inches or so above a pair of leaves. My DH says to pinch but cutting is the same thing no? How will cutting above leaf axils (buds right) bring up new stems from the crown of the plant? P.S. was put in early last summer to grow into my New Dawn climber and is full of greenery and about 6 or 7 stems but I have seen any axils or buds yet. I watered them this morning as it has been dry for about a week.

What do you suggest?

Jeanne, where do you post your beautiful pictures? I couldn't find them.

Thank you so much, as always, for your patience and expert advice.

suebot in CT

Sue, for success with clematis, especially in light of your past experiences with them, you need to buy quality decent sized plants from reputable vendors. I recommend Silver Star Vinery and Brushwood Nursery for good well established plants. Who knows what those poor plants from Home Depot have been through before you purchased them. Purchasing from Bluestone and Michigan Bulb Company will give you small plants that will need to be babied before planting them out in your garden. I know lots of people love Bluestone plants, but generally they are starter plants and are not fit to go directly in the garden. Your past experiences with these types of plants points this out. I have not heard anything good about Michigan Bulb Company so they would be the last place I would purchase clematis.

Also,you need to do something about the varmints in your garden. Regardless of what you do, voles will eat your plant roots (moles are meat eaters whereas voles are vegetarians and dine on plant roots) and cats digging and using your plants as litter boxes will destroy them. Voles can be dealt with by planting your clematis in the ground in wire cages made out of wire mesh. Katie in California has had to cage many of her clematis to prevent vole damage. Cats can be kept away by purchasing one of the many pets deterrents that you spray or sprinkle around your plants. They can also be kept out of physical contact with your plants by encasing the lower portion of the plant with vinyl coated fencing or chicken wire.

When planting your clematis, make sure you plant them deeper in the ground than they were in their original containers. This buries dormant nodes that can bring forth new stems from the ground. Also fertilizing them with a tea made of alfalfa pellets can help the plants throw out new basal stems from the crown because alfalfa contains triacontanol, proteins, vitamins, and minerals. Rose growers swear by the stuff.

I would also suggest you try growing some of the type III viticellas since they tend to be rather robust, have few if any of the problems associated with the type II large flowering hybrids, and generally give people better success than the type IIs.

Make sure you prune your clematis the first couple of years in the ground regardless of the pruning class they fall into. Yes, pinch/pruning/cutting back are all the same.

Lastly, remember that clematis are not immediate gratification plants. It often takes 3 or more years for them to get established to really start putting on super shows. The quality of the plant you purchase and how you care for it in its first couple of years in the ground will grossly affect your future success with these plants.

Sue..Miguel has given you some sage advice..As far as those bloody cats..sprinkle plain ole pepper onto the soil around the plants they are bothering..that is how I broke my cat from digging into my patio potted plants on my screened in porch..he doesn't get outside..Pinching isn't the same as taking your pruning sheers and cutting above a leaf axil..within time more vines will emerge from the soil..I still have a ONE-VINE wonder for my Clematis "Claire de Lune"..she was magnificent with tons of blooms but I am thinking about pruning her back to force more vines to come out of the ground..I hard pruned her each year for the first two and let her go this year and still just one bloody vine..some are just like that..Clematis are dreamy IMHO and I adore them but some can be a pain-in-the-you-know-what!!..I totally agree with Miguel..your viticella's aka pruning type 3's are the easiest and quickest to give one satisfaction while we impatiently await the pruning group 2 to mature after so many years!!!Miguel..You said hard prune regardless which pruning group..surely you don't mean pruning group 1's as well huh?..I've never hard pruned my Montana's and they are growing like a weed!! shooting out new vines like there is no tomorrow..You have alot more experience with clematis than me and know so much more than I...so I want to understand that one for future reference..I defer to your expertise'...Jeanne

Jeanne, yes I did mean all types of clematis with respect to hard pruning. The old saying of what is good for the goose is good for the gander holds true. Hard pruning all classes of clematis will encourage root development over top growth and will encourage more sprouts from the base. Montanas are a very vigorous type of clematis naturally but they will still benefit from it. Also, remember that montanas are not the only type of type I clematis--there are also the atragenes (alpinas and macropetalas) and an assortment of other infrequently encountered ones.

Suebot, I don't think you are doing anything wrong. Type II Clematis are very slow to get established. They should be hard pruned the first couple of years. It truly does help them put up more stems and get established faster.

Jeanne, I hard prune my Group 1 Alpinas, Macropetalas, Cartmanii and Armandii. I had Alpinas that were still scraggly after over five years and I got mad and hard pruned them last year. Worked like a charm. They put out far more growth and blooms than the previous years all together. The Cartmanii and Armandii are both newly planted last year and I hard pruned when I planted and I just hard pruned again after they bloomed.

I have hard pruned every Clematis I planted last year when I planted it and also again this year.

Montanas are so vigorous that I doubt they need it. My yard is too small for them so I don't have any.

I can't or think I can't grow the Alpinas and Macropetalas ...I don't have any..only the Montana's..so that is good to know..thank you hon..My Montana's shot up like 8 new vines this spring and freaked me totally out..wished the pruning group 2's were as vigorous...Debbie told me Clematis "Chalcedony" was a rather vigorous double pruning group 2 so I planted one and am hoping it will be like that for me in my zone..I planted it and it has already shot up 2 new vines..you can imagine me squealing in my garden the morning I noticed it..I want DOUBLES so badly...I might be fighting a losing battle and have to try every double on the planet!!..Consider me a woman on a mission!!..Tee hee...Jeanne

Dear Miguel, Jeanne, and BoS-

Thank you for all your advice; My question is what should I do to my II's right now, and in the fall. Should I cut back more or wait until fall? Should I feed them w/something? I appreciate the hand holding but I am going to get these damn things going.

suebot in CT

Jeanne, information abounds on the internet on reputable sites that deal with clematis about pruning all types of clematis back the first season or two in the ground regardless of type. As I stated earlier, doing so will result in a more vigorous plant. As I also stated, montanas tend to be a vigorous type of clematis but will benefit from doing so as well, but it is not necessary to do so if your plant is a healthy specimen to begin with. I think you have spooneri which you got from Debbie at Silver Star Vinery and we all know how healthy her plants are. Even so, not all suppliers of montanas send out as robust plants as she so my recommendation of pruning back all types of clematis still stands because of it.

Info from Completely Clematis Speciality Nursery:

PRUNING A YOUNG CLEMATIS

I cannot stress too much that proper pruning of these young plants is absolutely critical for their future growth and development. All too often I have seen a perfectly good little clematis which has been planted out and allowed to develop one very long, spindly growth. And the owners have complained that either it's a weak plant or it doesn't flower well when the only real problem is how it's been treated.

A plant like this will take years to develop properly if it ever does. Roots and top growth need to develop proportionately. Top growth needs to be restrained until root growth is sufficient to support it. To do this, the clematis should be kept pruned back to a height of roughly 18"-24" the first year regardless of its pruning code.

This will also encourage both branching and the development of multiple stems from the buds under ground. This is particularly important for group B clematis which are notoriously reluctant to fatten up at the base. Two or more years of this treatment may be necessary for the plant to develop a satisfactory framework, but the rewards in terms of future flowering and general appearance are well worth it. During this time flowering is not sacrificed, rather delayed until later in the season.

From House of Clematis website (http://www.homeofclematis.net/html/pr_01.htm)

Our first tip on pruning applies to all clematis varieties. The first February or March after planting all clematis should be cut back. At this time, you should be able to see leaf buds developing as your plant breaks dormancy. You should leave two sets of buds on each stem between where you make your cut and soil level. In subsequent years the following recommendations should be used.

Yes..I got "Spooneri" from Debbie and "Mayleen" from Dan..and of course you know how wonderful their clematis' rootsystems are...I hard pruned all my pruning group 2's for the first two years..and this is the first year I didn't prune those!!..I'd learned that hard pruning did all that you stated and just wasn't sure about my Montana's so I never did..they are growing like weeds!!..Do you think I should "chance" trying to grow any of the Alpinas or Macropetalas?..We both know the one that we are dying to have..I just hate putting so much energy into a plant and get my hopes up just to see it die!!..It literally upsets me to lose a plant..I can't even SP anything..I try to give it away first..Jeanne

I've consistently found HD clems to be disappointing. The first few I got there were mismarked, and I bought a couple more in bloom when they had something I wanted.

All have been very slow to establish compared with those I've gotten at Chalk Hill or a small local nursery (that, sniff, went out of business at the end of last season). I've just started buying from Brushwood and Silver Star this year, but was very pleased with what I got from both. Unless HD has a super-sale on a blooming plant, I won't be buying there again.

Go for Joe Zary Jeanne. You never will know if you don't try. I have a rather stoic attitude toward plants and whether they make it or not. If they were meant to make it they will, if they don't I have room to try something else!

Who is Joe Zary? Am I missing something??? LOL

Jeanne, I would certainly try Alpinas and Macropetalas and doubles too for that matter. They don't cost that much that you'll have to take out a second mortgage if they croak. :)

Type II's, Multi-blue is very vigorous for me. Has never wilted. Isn't fully double though. Josephine seems very vigorous. Not fully double though. Daniel Deronda has been spectacular. Many of the blooms are semi double. Has never wilted. Is huge with at least thirty stems. The only full double I have is Violet Elizabeth and she is a bit of a dog and is probably going away. Lots of wilt and shy to bloom and really pale washed out pink.

Suebot,

Did you already cut them back once this year? If so, you might just make sure you don't let them go to seed and do a bit of pinching of the tips. Your growing season may not be long enough to cut them back hard again.

Oh Miguel knows me soooooooo well..I've had dreams about Joe Zary!! Ok, I'll try and if they die I'll cry online to yall.. BOS..I have doubles..it's just they've not doubled for me yet..I planted "Violet Elizabeth" that I got from Debbie last year and she wilted and has never been seen again!!..but, I've heard from several like you that she is a Dog...it's just Debbie's picture of the one in her garden is breathtakingly to-die-for!!..Even my Josephine never had doubles or my Proteus,Pillu or Multi-Blue..Pillu hasn't bloomed yet for me this year much less set any flowerbuds so I'm still keeping my fingers crossed!!!But she did send up more vines this year!!..yeaaaaaaa.....Remember I hard pruned all my clematis in '2005 and '2006!!..Maybe year 4 for my new gardens will be different...boohoo poors me eh?..that's enough of my pity party..I am moving on for tonight
Hey Sue..did ya whack 'em yet?...Jeanne

Go Joe. It's your birthday! Go Joe!

Here is a link that might be useful: Joe Zary!!!

I just love all you all! You are so quick to respond with good advice. I am not buying another clematis unless it is of viticella parentage!! I printed out a list from CoTW of clems that fall into this category. I did order DoA from Bluestone so when she arrives you can tell me what I should do to keep her growing nicely. If you lived in my zone would you prefer to plant clems in the fall or spring? I want to place an order from Silver Star Vinery or Brushwood. I have also heard good things about Chalk Hill and their containers that grow great rootballs.

Miguel you really know your stuff and I think you hit the nail on the head about clemmies not providing instant gratification. I needed to know that just because I planted a clem last year doesn't mean it will be a big thriving monster this year. Slow and steady wins the race, I guess. It is still too early for me to think straight.

Wonder why my P.S. doesn't have anything but healthy small leaves on it yet?

Happy Memorial Day-
suebot in CT

Silver Star Vinery is having a sale now. $13 instead of $16 a pot, plus $9 shipping for each 2. I've ordered 6, my first order. From what I've heard & seen on the forums, the roots are so good that you could plant them directly in the ground.

There are several vits & large flowered late blooming type 3s that are hard to find locally included in the sale items.

Marie in ME

Polish Spirit was one of the last pruning group 3's to set buds for me ..My Avant-Garde is just now starting to bloom..give it time..Jeanne

My Polish Spirit is just starting to have a few flowers on it!

As for when to plant clematis in your zone, I would think either time would be fine. The thing to remember is that you can probably get away putting them in the ground sooner in the late summer than I can since you start getting cooler night time temps sooner than I do. I have planted in my zone as late as Halloween. I wouldn't recommend you waiting to plant that late in your zone since colder weather arrives so much earlier. I would think you can probably start planting in late August/early September and have your clematis all nestled in well before the really cold weather arrives. You know your weather patterns better than anyone else so what you need to do is to make sure your newly planted clematis have 6 to 8 weeks of time to get settled in before a good frost is forecast. Also remember, that a good mulch will keep the soil warm well into the early colder weather and that most plant root growth takes place in the fall when the soil temps. have cooled down.

HIP, HIP, HOORAY!

MY POLISH SPIRIT HAS TINY, TINY BUDS ON SOME OF THE STEMS. There is about 3-4 inches between pairs of leaves. My DH said I should have pinched. What do you say and is it too late or should I wait until after the first bloom? So many questions, please forgive me!

I am so happy. It will be viticellas for me from now on! Even though eventually I would like to try others as I don't want to be limited to just viticellas.

I can't wait PS blooms. Hopefully I can post a picture or two.

suebot in CT

I wouldn't pinch..heck you'll lose your blooms..viticellas bloom on the new vines put out during the growing season..enjoy ..enjoy....Jeanne

My Polish spirit was one of the very robust clems and bloomed overwhelmingly last two years, it is setting buds now.
I have been growing alpina and macropetala from seed and have been hard pruning them once they in the ground. It is great fun to see what kind of flower I get since clems from seeds give you so many variables.
Sue,
once you receive your Bluestone clem- it is actually Donahue's- it will be probably 2 inches pot.
Repot it into 4 in or slightly bigger one but no bigger than a gallon. It is important not to plant small plant into very big pot right away- plants will suffer from it. Keep it well watered in part sun spot until fall- if your one gallon pot will fill out and roots start sticking out it is time to plant it out.
I usually make my own mix from promix with some compost and add touch of slow release fertilizer or bone meal.
I have been buying from Donahue majority of my clems and they work very well for me. I think it is great idea for you to get your clems already with good one gallon root presence.
Proper planting will do half the job for you- hole has to be deep and soil workable- if you can not dig into it- then roots won't be able to grow either.
I usually try to plant several inches/ 6-8/ or couple of nodes deeper than it was in gallon size pot and dig out generous hole, add compost, etc. Clematis can live up to 90 years so you are preparing this hole for years to come.

Sue, I am with Jeanne. Enjoy the blooms and when the plant stops blooming, cut it back by half and keep it well fertilized and watered all summer. You might get more blooms before the end of the summer/early fall.

Joe Zary is quite spectacular!

Yeah, BorS, I was intrigued by it on first glance!

me too..I actually had heart Palpatations with that one

I throw a handful of lime on all of my clems. (about 50!) each year. They like the soil on the sweet side.

Hi alotoplants-

What does (about 50!) mean? I am quite new to amendments.

suebot in CT

Clematis do not need limey soil for them to do well. That is an old wives tale perpetuated by the fact that clematis were originally found in England growing on chalky soils. Clematis are quite adaptable to the pH of whatever soil is native to your area provided that something very acidic or basic has not been dumped into the soil.

In his book entitled "The Genus Clematis", Magnus Johnson says "clematis belong to so the so called 'alkali tolerant' plants. This means that their cell-juice has a low pH-value but that they can tolerate alkaline soils with high pH-values. As they thus are indifferent to the lime content in the soil, they can thrive together with rhododendrons as well as roses."

I think she is referring to the size of her collection, not amendments. 50 clems. Someday you may be able to say the same.

Marie in ME (about 100)

Hi Marie-

Duh! You are absolutely right. That is how many clems she puts lime on. I am slowly learning the lingo with all of your help. I envy you living in ME. Hopefully you live where you get alot of snow. After autumn, winter is my favorite season. We didn't have much of a winter to speak of this year but we can always set our hopes on next year. That is what I love about New England; the changing of the seasons. Just when you are tired of the cold, spring is around the corner, when you are tired of the heat, the grandest season of them all is upon us! I lived in FL for 8 long, long years and I hated it so much. We lived in Royal Palm Beach and every day was the same. Hot, humid, flat and ugly. I thank God we were able to come back home to God's country. I told my husband I would live in a hut if we could come back home and he was sick of FL too so we put our house on the market and sold it quickly, came up here in April 1995 and found our home, went back down to finish out the school year, and then closed on the house in FL on a Friday in July then drove up to CT w/1 unhappy 14 year old daughter, 1 dog, and 2 cats. Then we closed on our house in CT that Tuesday. Our oldest daughter stayed in FL to attend college but is now home in CT w/1 5 year old son, Johnny (our 1st grandchild) and 2 year old twins, Hunter & Ava. Our unhappy 14 year old is now 26 and getting married November 17, 2007. She and our son in law to be live in our town. God Blessed Us All!

Sorry to bend your ear but I love talking to people!

suebot in CT

We have A LOT of rodent problems. nckvilledudes said that you can prevent vole damage by surrounding the roots with a mesh cage. How much bigger than the root ball should the cage be? I would guess you would have to allow for future growth, but I am not sure what that would be. Also would you want the mesh as rugged as hardware cloth? It seems if it could chew through that I would be more afraid of the vole than worried about my plant.

Hi, I put lime on all of my clematis and for me, they do much better. From what I have read, most like the ph from 7.0 to 7.5 which is a little higher than normal especially in my area. Many plants can do ok out of their ph zone but it will stress them. It is certainly not a wives tale.
Actually, I have closer to 75 clematis.

Good for you alotofplants about having 75 clematis. I stopped counting when I hit 100. Any clematis expert you talk to will also say that clematis needing lime is an old wives tale. Please don't continue to perpetuate this myth.

If you google clematis you will find much information about clematis and liking a higher ph. It is far from a myth.

I love this arguement. Last week I was at a nursery talking to a plantsman who said most plants will do better with a lower ph. I had never heard that before.

I've also read that clematis like a little sweeter soil, but Edith Malek, president of the American Clematis Society, states in her book that clematis liking a higher ph is an old wives tale, that a ph of 6.5 is ideal. Maybe the difference is negligable, I don't know. I'd like to find if anyone has proved this with science or if it is all anecdotal.

I'm also in Zone 6 in CT and the two varieties that succeed the best for me with minimal care are Henryi http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/55059/
and The President http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/4456/

I just put them in rich soil where they got morning sun and afternoon shade and they went crazy. I have horrible soil in my new house that is not nearly as good as the other place and they are getting more sun and they are still the two I planted that are growing well. The others are spindly and just sort of hanging out. I think I will eventually replace the others with them.

Peace,
Jane

As far as the clematis and lime, I have found that gardening, like most sciences will often have opposing camps. Science is not exact. Just do what works for you.
The lime seems to work well for me. Whatever.

Alotofplants, often what happens with many ideas about clematis is that what was initially thought about them came from the British and their experience with them. This information is parroted along by everyone and it often takes a long time to get the information corrected. (As far as googling to get information on the web, you can probably find information out there that will support any position.)

As an example about info that is parroted about clematis, take for example the idea that clematis are difficult plants to grow. Nothing is further from the truth especially if you give them what they need and you choose a variety that is suited to your area. The same is true about how some types of clematis are better suited to growing in a conservatory. Clematis fremontii and other similar types are grown in England either inside or in containers because they have trouble with them dieing off over the winter. I took this information to heart and planted my fremontii in a pot based on that information. I then learned of quite a few people here in the states, some in the cold north, who have been growing theirs outside in the ground for several years. As a result, mine are now in the ground and are doing fine. Yet, another myth out there circulating is that clematis need cool root runs. What they like is the moisture that is associated with cool root runs, that is moisture. The plants can exist in pots that get quite hot in the summer if they are provided the moisture, which is what they really need.

Janet, if you look in Edith's book, you will also see that she says the following: "The only exception to the rule of not adding lime would be if you live in an area that has a major calcium deficiency. Have your soil tested by a professional soil lab and add lime only if their findings reccomend that you do so."

Perhaps this is your issue lotsofplants. Perhaps a soil test would show that your soil lacks calcium that it is getting from the lime and that is what your plant is lacking, not the affect the lime has on your soil pH. I garden in acidic clay soil, have tons of clematis, and have never added lime to my soil. How can I grow them in acidic soil and you not? Perhaps the issue is calcium or some other deficiency in your soil that is being helped by a microcomponent in the lime and not the pH affect caused by the lime.

Edith goes on to say: "I have found that in this country it is better to grow clematis in the more acidic planting situation of a pH of 6.5. Growing clematis in an acidic location is important for gardeners who live in areas where there is little rainfall."

In another section of her book, Edith states that lime can inhibit clematis from utilizing essential nutrients such as iron, manganese, and zinc from the soil.

The bottom line is that unless you have investigated your soil conditions via a soil test, you don't really know if the lime is doing anything for your clematis or whether it is really needed. Something else may be the actual cause of clematis failing to thrive and lime may be just adding that extra ingredient. The pH affect may be totally unrelated. Excuse my insistence on fact and investigation, but it comes from graduating college with a chemistry major and biology minor. I am a science nerd and proud of it! LOL

You can spread your science nerdiness all over this forum - it's helpful. :-)

After I posted, I did a little looking around and noticed that there are reputable growers who feel that clematis can tolerate a ph range from 4-9.

nckvilledudes-

I envy your knowledge and willingness to share it all with us. You are so thorough that I never doubt anything you write about! Where the heck is OrwellianzQ? I would love to hear about this mysterious place. Do you have a site where you post pictures of your gardens?

Another question; I got my DoA from Bluestone and she is tiny. When I pot her up in a 1 gallon container should I bury her deep? How about bonemeal in the soil? Any suggestions would be so appreciated as always, my friend.

suebot in CT

Sue, Orwellian zone Q was my response to Ivillage purchasing Garden Web and claiming their rights to anything that anyone posted. Don't know if you are aware but George Orwell was an author that wrote a book called "1984" where the government rewrote history to suit themselves. Okay, now I am showing my age, will be 50 this coming September. I have all my pictures online at Photobucket so I am linking it below. Prior to that I had an account at Sony Imagestation and I believe I had an account somewhere prior to that but can't remember where! LOL

As for your DoA, she can be potted up and grown out on your patio or the pot can be buried in the soil provided the soil has good drainage. I must admit that in my zone I tend to keep them above ground just so that I can see if I am watering enough or not during the summer.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Photobucket account

nckvilledudes-

Weren't we just 24 yesterday? You are a mere child. I will be 53 in February but my body feels about 75 sometimes but in the deep, dark recesses of my consious I am only 24! I believe I think young but my daughters might say otherwise. Yes, I barely remember reading "1984" years before I began my love affair with books. I am going to have to get a copy from the library and read it again. I like how you answered iVillage's question. Very cool!

What I meant about planting DoA deep is I have heard when you plant a clematis you should plant it about 2-3" deeper than it was it the pot it came in. I guess that means like 1/2 of my plant would be in the dirt and only 2 inches above the soil line. Should I do this?

Thanks for the link to your flowers. I can't wait to get some time to peruse them.

Thanks,
suebot in CT

Sue, if that plant is that small, I would perhaps bury it an inch or so deeper in the pot you are going to grow her out in. Then when you plant her in the ground in the garden you can plant her 2 or 3 inches deeper.

Yeah, I know what you mean Sue. At times I still feel like a teenager and other days I feel my age! LOL

Yes, bury her deeper in the gallon pot than she is now. :)