the "monkey puzzle" for cunninghamia name mix-up appears to be an OCCASIONAL south eastern thing where there are a fair amount of spiny looking "china firs" (a not particularly appropriate name since it is not a fir tree at all and for that matter china has a number of "true" firs/abies that might rightfully claim that moniker) and very few (also) spiny looking monkey puzzles(no monkeys in its native chilean habitat to be puzzled by it, LOL) so people sometimes get confused. agree that the cunninghamia looks more like a. angustifolia but "monkey puzzle' has been used every once in a while by some non-technical oriented folks (right, wrong, or indifferent) as a kind of generic name for several araucarias.

Floramakros: I _DO_ win because no one here, including you, has offered a single substantive refutation of anything I've posted on the issues initially raised in the Pinus thread and later those separated into another thread by me to keep things organized. (Except Resin on the very minor issue of where to collect the best C. florida for NW Europe; and because I'm a reasonable, not highly defensive person, I agreed he probably had a good point at least w/respect to the UK proper.) You seem to consider an ad hominem attacks on others - most recently calling me an "idiot" - to be a valid way to argue. I have a BS degree in biology from a top 50 rated US university and worked in one of the country's leading toxicological research labs after college. (but since moved into another field, since having to wear a ventilator mask at work can be a major downer!) Is that my qualification for being an idiot? Is that why my arguments are routinely debunked by other people (not!)? Look, I've been here for 7 years longer than you, and I was actually on gardenweb since its inception under another user name. We've had troublemakers come and go. Guess who's looking like the troublemaker recently? I came into the Pinus thread having seen your earlier posts and having thought of you as another positive contributor. I'm sure you forget but I responded to one of your earlier posts about Pinus strobus in California, in the hopes of it being helpful _to you_. I see you insult the original poster ("we get a troll"), and then get into a tussle with Salicaceae/Jason. I TOTALLY ignore this drama initially, and comment only on the validity of your argument about the theoretical plant SCPalmnut could purchase. (post 23) I point out quite reasonably that a clone in the nursery trade doesn't constitute "rare DNA". By definition, nurseries and arboreta don't sell out their last mother plant of anything when running a grafting operation. That's why they've grafted it. We reasonably assume that SCPalmnut was not going to visit the grove in Mexico and smuggle out cones of an endangered species! (not that they aren't already being "wasted": "Like other pinyons, the seeds are edible; this represents a threat to the species' survival, as the majority of the seeds produced are harvested, limiting natural regeneration of the pines." per wikipedia) Remarkably, it's always been obvious that I agreed in general with you discouraging SCPalmnut, I just dared to attempt to make the slightest correction to why you were criticizing him. To respond to a post that completely ignored drama, guess who turned on the drama: "So we should stop giving our infants vaccinations because there's a chance they'll be hit and killed by a school bus at the age of 10 anyway...that's seems like pretty twisted logic..." I took this affront _to reason_* as an invitation to put you in your place. For someone like me, that meant using logic to debunk your faulty rhetoric, not tell you you needed therapy. This is where I made my one and only mistake - by continuing at all. I probably should have realized no one was taking your silly vindictiveness seriously, but I didn't. And yes, I got a little high handed in my response. (_I_ can recognize when I'm taking things a little too far, unlike some people: HAHAHAHAHA) But there's a big difference between saying "HAHA" in a post and suggesting the other person has mental issues ("Definitely seek therapy" as you said to me): instead of actually trying to respond to anything in my original posts, since this point in the narrative you have done nothing but attempt to insult me and accuse me of lying. You were apparently aghast no one else was buying it: "Please someone else say something, sheesh". History repeated itself as I point out the plant may not be able to grow in SC or FL, but is not extremely sensitive to humidity if McPotts (how fitting) had grown it in a pot in Virginia. Believe me, I've had protea seedlings last from January to June, and literally DIE a couple days after the first humid, sultry Virginia evening. I know all about the problem of maritime plants in humid climates. Again, for whatever reason this perfectly valid contribution to the thread completely enraged you. If there's anything wrong with this precis of the current state of affairs, do feel free to let us know. I will no longer comment on "L'affaire maximartinezii" itself, although of course I will defend myself from further ad hominem attacks in this and any other thread. I'm willing to move on in the sense that I will see you again as any other poster who was making and hopefully will continue to make positive contributions. (You notice I didn't triumphantly cheer your announcement of departure; would have you done the same if I had said I was leaving for good?) Let's just say we had a "misunderstanding" and call it a day. * - i.e., not to _me_. At no point have I responded to your attacks on me by attacking you in the same way; the statement I made about an "elephant in the room" was quite clearly a rhetorical device and not some kind of threat, as you kept trying to make it out to be in an attempt to drum up nonexistent sympathy for your side of the argument. This post was edited by davidrt28 on Sun, Dec 2, 12 at 8:50

OK. Thanks for posting the picture. Ones this size have probably been planted all over the NYC exurbs for decades. It's not very old. If a summer doesn't kill it first, a winter like 1994, 1985, 1977, or even 2004 probably will. Believe me I harbor no ill will toward people planting them if they want to. The simple fact is very few of them last on the east coast considering they've been a collectible for almost 100 years. I have no doubt if I bothered to look I could find plenty of primary sources documenting such - old issues or Arnoldia or whatnot. I've tried a slew of Chilean plants. Almost all of them despise being in a non-maritime climate. Other antipodal regions: ZA, AU and Argentina are more promising. As for which is worse, NZ and Chile are a toss up. But as I think about it, Chile is worse. The interior of NZ can actually get slightly hot...the record high for even Santiago is a measly 99F. Compare to 113F for downtown Los Angeles, and 115F for Melbourne. This one is more likely to be done in by a winter; that area has relatively cool summer nights by east coast standards and you don't have go very high in elevation up there until it feels like you're in northern Scandinavia or something. (this surprised me when I once drove to upstate NY...above 1600 or so ft. there is suddenly nothing but white birches) BUT the winters up there would be far too cold for it, being zn 5b at that elevation. With the string of mild winters we've had I'm not surprised it hasn't died yet; a brief -1F is w/in its tolerance range. A couple weeks with many nights below 0F will probably not be. The few east coast trees I've mentioned are quite likely extra tolerant to both heat & cold; it's a shame there's no easy way to breed them. (I can just imagine a silly NY Times article highlighting such a sisyphean task: rushing pollen from male trees to female trees across state lines. With only 3 or 4 of them, there might not even be a match)

I bought a house about 3 years ago which had a tree that no one could identify.....finally a local Nursery Owner was at my property and saw it and said it was most definitely a "Monkey Puzzle" Tree. Araucaria Bidwillii I have since confirmed this. I live in Kingsland,Ga........300 yards from Florida right along I-95. This Tree appears to be about 100 years old as it is about 35-45 feet tall. It is in good health...as a matter of fact once I knew what it was....and how rare it was in this part of the world....I immediately had a couple small Water Oaks removed which were crowding it. It will now get much better air circulation. I can live with the razor sharp droppings now that I know I own such an unusual tree and have quite the topic of conversation. So,I can attest that this species can,and does,survive in Coastal Georgia.