Okay, I posted too quickly, as I figured out what kind of caterpillar it was....a Tersa Spinx Moth........

I know this is not the best place to post this as this is the butterfly forum, and lots of people love moths. But, I want my pentas back!!!! I'm going to have just stubs left, and honestly, I had to lose my pentas to a brown moth..... :(

Maybe somebody needs to talk me through it..... Sigh..... I think my pentas are prettier than the moth.

Elaine

Elaine, no one will bash you for wanting to protect your garden plants. This is, first and foremost, a GARDENING forum. You have some options in this dilemma.

I have very large perennial beds which I have planted with adult butterflies and moths in mind. However, I do not use important host (caterpillar) plants because I have so many birds and insect predators in my gardens. You can choose to avoid penta in the future. I wish I could plant it, but am not willing to provide a smorgasbord for the birds. I have an enormous amount of moth and butterfly activity, but rarely come across any caterpillars.

You can also grow a lot MORE of this plant! That way, you could remove the caterpillars from where you don't want them to those plants that you've provided as sacrifice.

You can also learn about how to raise caterpillars in cages and pens away from your garden plants. I believe that this should only be done by those who are really interested in learning about the procedures, and there are many incredibly knowledgeable and helpful people in this forum. It is not something that I am interested in doing, but so appreciate those that do.

Then, you can also remove the caterpillars, but it is pretty late in the season for you to expect much new growth from your pentas.

If I were in your place (which I am NOT...it's entirely up to you), I think I'd plan for next year and plant accordingly.

Here's a picture of an adult tersa that I raised, Elaine -
{{gwi:334940}}
I found two tersas on some buttonweed, so if there's some of it in your area, you could move them from your pentas to the buttonweed. Here's a picture of those two cats on buttonweed/diodia with a visible flower. I'm sure you've seen this weed - it grows in just about every wet location.
{{gwi:334939}}
The problem is that they grow so fast they eat your pentas down to the nub before you know they're there - maybe checking your pentas frequently for frass will help.
MissSherry

Elaine, it is disheartening to see your pentas stripped. It is a delemma.

Yes, it is GARDEN WEB. But, I have to disagree with Rhizo. After all, this IS a Butterfly (and moth) forum, with people who do like to encourage them to our garden. Consequences or no, we all expect to have some, if not the majority, of our plants to be chowed on by critters. For those who don't like caterpillars eating their plants (especially the attractive ones), there are the Annual and Perennial forums, among a ghastly number of other forums. There's even a Passiflora forum for those who grow them for ornamental purposes and not the Gulf Frits (go figure that one out! Heehee).

If you want to be rid of them, Elaine, I'm afraid, in order to protect your other butterfly plants from chemicals, you'll have to hand pick and destroy them. I think there is a Pests Forum and even an Organic Forum for those who want to do things that way.

I think I've collected about 20 cats so far. The predators are doing a good job of keeping the numbers low here.

If they happen to have little white cocoons on them, they're already goners anyway. Lots of predators out this year in my garden.

Susan

Yes,

the pentas are gone for this year definitely....the moths can have them.....

It's too bad, as I love them. (the pentas, not the moths...) Oh, well....thanks for all your replies. Thanks Rhizo for your suggestions....I'm not sure what I plan to do next year... I'll have the winter to think about it

Elaine

Susan, I think alot of you, and respect your opinions, but I'm afraid that I beg to differ on this with you. This is a wonderful Butterfly Forum, where we welcome and encourage everyone to post, to learn, to ask questions, to share joys and sorrows with their experiences in planting for the butterflies and raising caterpillars. But, what we decide we want to raise in our own gardens should be respected, also. I personally, have some quite large pentas that I have really enjoyed watching the butterflies and hummingbirds going to nectar to. If I choose not to want to raise Tersas on my pentas, my feelings would be quite hurt, if I was referred to just go to the Annual and Perennial Forums. I may be reluctant to post again.

Just my 2 cents.....

And I your opinions as well, Linda. That's why we're all such a diverse group, eh? But, on a Butterfly and moth forum, I'm not gonna tell someone to "not plant them" next year, and we make referrals to other forums regularly on issues of soil, culture issues, insects, and so many others, and it's great that so many topics are available for our use.

I went to the Bee Forum one time to ask about wasps, and getting rid of them, and boy, did I get a bashing! I was told to go to the Pests Forum to ask about it....after a long diatribe on the benefits of wasps. I surely could see their point, but I still don't like wasps.

I did suggest that the only way to opt out of raising Tersas is to hand pick and dispose of them if one wants to maintain a chemical free habitat for the butterflies. There are many of us that love moths, especially the sphinx moths and silk moths. Not everyone does, I agree. But, I am firm in my belief that this forum is for people who love both butterflies and moths and actually grow plants (both host and nectar) to attract them.

On our banner page, it clearly states that, "[t]his forum is for the discussion of plants that both attract and provide habitat for butterflies". Personally I think it should be amended to include "...for butterflies and moths". But this discussion happened last year, and nothing was done. I'm sorry, but I don't think there is anything politically incorrect in referring people to other forums either.

I plant Pentas to specifically attract the Tersas, and others may just want them as ornamentals. It is a good thing that the Tersas usually wait until late in the summer to find them! LOL!

I feel comfortable with my response as I'm sure Rhizo does, too. We can agree to disagree, I'm sure. I meant no offense to Elaine at all. I just did not want her to think that we all jump in with a response on getting rid of them, when they are such a beautiful insect.

I'd like to add that I've planted Pentas every year since 2003 and the Tersas have not touched them since that time until this year. So I think their presence is "cyclic" and doesn't occur regularly year after year. That's another reason I like to raise them - because I don't see them every single summer. This year has been a bumper year for almost every genus of lepidoptera and we may not see this much activity for the next several years. I just appreciate that I have been able to be a part of this great summer and am thankful for every day God has allowed me to live and experience the wonders of butterflies and moths.

Susan

I'm not sure it is the same (it looks very similar) but I have a caterpillar munching away on my morning glory vine. Which I don't mind because it's somewhat out of control. Does the tersa also eat morning glory vine? I had pentas last year (couldn't find them this year) but nothing ate them.

I grow the passion vine for the flowers, but also for the frits. It actually works out well because the GFs come after most of the flowers have bloomed and the vine is all over the place anyway. And since it dies back in fall, why not let the caterpillars eat it. I have about a dozen munching away right now.

Sure, some get eaten by the birds, but that's part of nature. Birds have eat too!

The hornworm eating your morning glories is probably a pink-spotted hawkmoth, Buford. Here's a picture I made last year of an adult -
{{gwi:510545}}
I agree with Susan, this IS the BUTTERFLY gardening forum, and they - and moths - and their caterpillars are the primary focus here. Nobody could reasonably expect us butterfly and moth lovers to recommend killing lep cats for the sake of any plant. I don't understand why anybody would want to post on a forum when they're not really involved in the subject of the forum - I've gotten really interested in raising new types of passis, so I've been posting on the Passiflora Forum, but when I get my fence all covered with vines, I probably won't post as much. I guess it makes some people feel real smart to troll the forums looking for questions they know the answer to that nobody else does, but then to tell a regular poster who IS interested (and learning) that what they thought was true is silly! The thing that makes this forum special is the kindness of the people - if you want to insult and/or argue, I say go elsewhere!
I also noticed that the owners of this forum are asking us if we have a question we want to ask Hillary Clinton - I thought this forum was supposed to be non-political. Are they endorsing one candidate or are they going to give us the opportunity to question all the candidates?
MissSherry

Many moons ago, this forum emphasized the gardening point-of-view, but has morphed into what seems like a Caterpillar Raising Forum much of the time. This is not a bad thing, but we need to remember that there are healthy and reasonable options out there for the gardener who is interested in fostering an ecosystem for adult moths and butterflies, but might not care to be protectors of the caterpillars.

I think that Elaine asked a perfectly responsible question, and I believe that THIS forum is the ideal place to ask it. After all, what other forum is a meeting place for such a versatile, knowledgeable group of people?

It's a good opportunity to educate someone in alternative host plants, plant selection, etc.

When I first started reading, but not posting, on this forum, which would have been about 2001?, caterpillars and host plants were the dominant topic, so it's been that way for at least that long. Lisa and Larry in Florida, Chubbly, Stuart, and others were the main posters. And I remember you, Rhizo, when you were Dorie!
MissSherry

I agree that Elaine did ask a perfectly reasonable question, but it was the response to her question that floored me, Dorie. We all know that if one wants to Butterfly Garden, we provide not only plants to nectar on, but host plants. I know that you choose not to do that, because you have so many birds and don't want the birds to consumer the caterpillars. That's perfectly okay, too. But, that perspective might be interpreted as contrary to the purpose of this forum.

I noticed on Bug Guide and What's That Bug, they just don't condone the destruction of any moth or butterfly larvae and they make that very clear in their responses to inquiries. I believe we align ourselves on this forum with that very practice.

Host plants and nectar plants go hand in hand, unless a conscientious decision has been made, by educating oneself to NOT plant specific host plants. I would guess that the majority of us sincerely want to raise butterflies and/or moths, whether indoors or outdoors, despite having birds in our gardens. There are a lot of other predators lurking in the garden including birds. But, we do our best.

Gardening for butterflies encompasses an entire ecosystem of providing them with host plants and nectar plants, not just gardening for pretty flowers. If I were doing that, I'd have beautiful lush dill, flowering fennel, beautiful passion vine flowers, non-stop blooming tropical milkweed, and tons of others. I think it was MissSherry that mentioned in the thread in regard to Tersas particularly, that they probably used the native Buttonweed before the exotic, non-native Pentas were introduced. I would imagine that once again, habitat destruction led to the eventual transition to the use of Pentas as a host. So, once again, we can probably blame the altered ecosystem for the Tersas on human intervention once again. It's not the poor sphinx moth's fault that it now relies on Pentas to feed its larvae.

As I said before, the population fluctuates year-to-year in Oklahoma. We could go another 4 or 5 years without seeing any Tersas in our State. I don't know about other states. So, in our location, they're not exactly what I would call a true pest. And if I did, I'd go to the Pest and Disease Forum to check it out.....

Susan

I don't think there was anything to terribly wrong with Rhizo's post. He didn't post that particular post anywhere but right here on this thread. The response seemed to be a direct response to my frustration about losing my pentas. And I did specifically say that I was disappointed to lose them. He is not posting things like that on threads that are very happy to have tersa sphinx moths.

As far as whether I should "KNOW and "EXPECT" to lose plants is another issue. I planted the pentas because I think they are beautiful and easy and always flowering. I did not KNOW they would get eaten because I didn't know they were a host to anything. This is a butterfly garden fourm.....in the FAQ it has host plants for butterflies. I have a very good book that Linda recommended about butterflies. I didn't know that pentas were host plant to moths.

Another reason I didn't know about pentas is that I do not have the time to read every thread here. Sometimes I just struggle along to try to get the laundry done for the family and dinner on the table for the eight of us. I would love to have more time to read garden web or to work in the garden itself. I don't ever read the moth threads. Sometimes I get on the computer before I and read a few threads before bed but I can't read all of them.

I don't plant everything in my garden for butterflies. Sometimes, especially in the front yard I just plant things because I think they are pretty. And, yes, I was shocked and disappointed to go out there and find them gone. I don't EXPECT that everything in my garden is going to get eaten.

If you are going to get upset with someone be upset with me, as I realize that this is not the forum to post on when you want your plants back instead of a moth. I will be careful as to what I post next time, or I could have taken it to a different forum as you said. Do not be upset with Rhizo's response as it is directly related to the post. It was my post that should not have been on the butterfly forum. I posted my disappointment a little too quickly.

Elaine

SusanLynne48 wrote:

"On our banner page, it clearly states that, "[t]his forum is for the discussion of plants that both attract and provide habitat for butterflies"."

The part bolded is the object of the verb 'is' -- discussion of plants.

The fact that a segment of regular posters love moths and enjoy raising them does not change the purpose of the forum. It simply becomes a sort of subculture of the forum.

Pentas are a great nectar plant for butterflies. I don't think it is common knowledge that they are a host plant outside of our uber-butterfly gardener community. Like weeds, whether an organism is beneficial or pest can be pretty subjective. No matter how much you like insects, if they suddenly wreck something you worked hard to achieve, they have likely become a pest.

I was also bugged (lol) by the post that says the forum is "for people who ..." It is not for anyone else to say what 'type' of person can participate in our public forum. The only qualification, according to the site is in the quote above -- you have to want to discuss plants that attract and provide habitat for butterflies. It doesn't say anything about deifying lepidoptera.

I thought rhizo's reply was perfect.

I like to raise caterpillars mostly because it allows me to decide which parts of which plants get eaten. The adults are a bonus.

PS -- I had no idea rhizo was dorie! (I started here about the same time as misssherry.)

Whatever....I'll just have to find a forum that DOES garden specifically to raise caterpillars of both moths and butterflies. Obviously, I had the wrong impression of this forum site.

Susan

Now, you deciding to leave this forum would be a shame, Susan! You have a great deal to offer to those who visit here, and your experienced responses have no doubt helped a great many people learn about the 'care and feeding' of caterpillars. But this forum, in my humble opinion, should be balanced and informative and helpful to all who enter. If I had your passion about providing a protected environment for caterpillars, I'd want very much be a guide and a leader. You've been that to this forum...it's a wonderful platform for education.

I do believe that my first post to Elaine's post was misconstrued. I suggested that she plant MORE pentas so that she could have some plants to sacrifice to the caterpillars....that she avoided planting pentas in the first place, if seeing them destroyed was an issue for her....or that she learn how to hand raise them! I am not quite sure how much more balanced I could have been, lol!

Most caterpillars are never destroyed in my gardens, the exceptions being those fall webworms which have decided to take over a redbud and those durned hornworms when I find them early on in the tomato growing season. Even then, all I do is make them available to predators.

So, I think we should all kiss and make up! There's been a great deal of what I felt was team work and camaraderie within this forum. Seems a shame to see it dissipate.

((((XXXXX)))) from Dorie

As a neutral person who has been reading all this--I think you put it quite well, Dorie. Since joining earlier this summer, I have enjoyed all the input on this forum. I've been challenged already, but you can't take it personally--life's too short. For that reason, I don't think anyone on this forum is going to leave over this discussion.

I remember the first time I lost a penta to a tersa. It was totally unexpected and I was bummed out. I didn't know what was eating the pentas, and I struggled to find info on the internet as it was before this forum. I was curious, so I raised the cats and released them. However, I really questioned wanting to sacrifice my pentas in the future.

We are all on a continuum here--from the people who raise nectar plants for the enjoyment of the beautiful BFs and moths that visit their yard, to the people who plant everything in mind for attracting and feeding different species of BF and Moth cats.

It's like when I was a reading specialist, do you teach phonics' method or whole language? Just get those two groups together if you want to see fireworks! LOL

This forum is a wonderful place, something I have been missing for many years. I've always wanted to be able to communicate with other people who have the same passion for lepidotera and gardening that I have, and am I glad I found you all!

Thanks everyone for your contributions to making this forum the class act that it is. Diversity adds interest to life.

OKSandy

Dorie, one way to keep camaraderie flowing is to respect people's feelings. This means you don't call people and their ideas "silly" like you did to Susan on a thread entitled "Mistletoe" not too long ago. If you would initiate some posts, ask some questions, or post some pictures, that would help, too. The only time we hear from you is when you drop in to correct us or give us a technical answer that only somebody with your education could answer.
There was a Dorie who caused one of the rare arguments we've ever had on this forum several years ago, I can't remember how many. We were discussing various ways to get rid of wasps - I remember CalSherry and her famous tennis racket - and somebody named Dorie from Alabama scolded us, saying that wasps were important protectors of the forest and should be left alone. That thread is what gave birth to the expression "wasp police". This same Dorie popped in on a thread about saddleback caterpillars - we were discussing their sting, but, of course, we recommended just not touching them, not killing them - and Dorie from Alabama recommended that we put on gloves and kill them. Huh? She had just told us that wasps were a part of nature - what about saddleback cats? Was that Dorie you? On another recent thread when I was praising chicken manure, you came back with the comment that it didn't matter where plants got their nutrients, which is true, but, maybe chicken manure contains other elements that are deficient in my soil? I know you've gotten into long arguments on other forums as Dorie, and you changed your forum name - Lucky on the Tree Forum pointed that out - but this forum is full of sensitive people who don't like to argue. Who else would appreciate those ethereal butterflies (and, yes, caterpillars) enough to spend so much of our time on them BUT extra sensitive people? I, for one, use this forum as something of an escape from my otherwise tedious and physically stressful life.
If it weren't for the "subculture" of caterpillar protectors as grouperman941 puts it (that sounds like something illegal) there wouldn't be much input on this forum at all, and it'd be like many other forums on the Garden Web, with half the posts going unanswered. We may be a "subculture" but at least we're not a "counter culture"!
MissSherry

P.S. Susan, I tried to e-mail you through the Forum, but couldn't. Would you go to my member page and e-mail me, please? :)
MissSherry

lol MissSherry. Subculture is not a bad thing. There's also the monarch-only subculture, and the people who are mostly into buddleias. We are all in the right place because these things are all butterfly gardening.

Sure, the most passionate and most frequent posters are the real cat-lovers/raisers, but that doesn't mean only people like them should be posting here or that questions about what to do with species of cats you don't want can't be asked here. You are all appreciated very much.

You can bet if the OP went right to an ornamental plant forum that someone would pretty quickly recommend Bt or soaping or worse.

If rhizo (Dorie) has a tendency to troll, I don't think she was doing it on this thread.

Susan, I don't know why you'd want to leave this forum over a little debate.

Here, pentas grow like trees, so I'll never have this problem. The ones I put in at school are about 4 feet tall!

I changed my user name because I moved from SC to lovely Alabama and a new Internet carrier. Gardenweb didn't allow me to continue using Dorie (I kept getting a notice that 'Dorie' was already in use...lol) so I decided on the moniker 'Rhizo', short for Rhizosphere. I am not, have not, and never will need to 'hide' behind false names. Would I have made mention of all that in 'My Page' if I were attempting to disguise myself in some way?

Lucky is a pal of mine. We call each other 'Cousin'. He pointed out on the tree forum that Rhizo is really Dorie, because I had been a poster (as Dorie) on the tree forum since it's very beginning. People had been asking where Dorie was. Believe it or not, Miss Sherry, I've managed to foster a very good reputation in my years of posting on the gardenweb....as Dorie AND Rhizo. I've never trolled, and have always tried to be factual, helpful, truthful, and straightforward. I probably ruffle feathers once in awhile, but that is never my intent. At least, HARDLY ever! ;-)

I vaguely remembered the wasp issue. I suspect that I was attempting to be educational about the role that many different kinds of wasps have in a picture that is much larger than the confines of our butterfly gardens. As someone who is very active in urban forestry issues, I can speak with some authority on the role that parasitic wasps play in managing serious tree pests.

I stand by my comment that Saddleback caterpillars should be removed, when possible, if they are found in a nursery or garden situation. (That WAS a silly comment made by you, Miss Sherry.) Rather like comparing a shark swimming in the vast ocean as opposed to a backyard swimming pool. I don't believe in the killing of sharks, but I daresay I'd get him out of the pool! Having been stung by one myself, and having to take two employees to the ER due to anaphylactic shock....I stick to my guns on that comment. Fire ants can hang out in my yard, but not anywhere near my patio or favorite garden locations. I dispatch praying mantids to my neighbor's garden, too. I've been known to scare grackles away from the bird feeders, and I have a yellow jacket trap in my back yard. I empty plant saucers to rid them of mosquito larvae and smack at the adults I find snacking on me. Spiders, as a rule, are more than welcome in my gardens and around the house, but I wage war against the Black Widows that have become so common. And Saddleback caterpillars are the enemy when I see them in the garden.

I'm still mystified as to how the intent of this thread has been pretty much rewritten. This IS the forum for the discussion of all aspects of butterfly and moth gardening. I believe that caterpillars are a primary focus for this forum and will continue to be with good reason! It is essential that this forum remains a source of solid, balanced information about all aspects of providing habitat for these wonderful insects. Caterpillar identification is something I enjoy very much and have become somewhat proficient at, as well as host plant specification. I learn a great deal from you.

No one has suggested (and certainly not me) that this forum shouldn't continue to be an important forum for all things to do with the fostering of caterpillars. You two (Sherry and Susan) are a wealth of information and would be sadly missed if you 'up and left'. However, I'll suggest EVER so gently, that you give up harboring such ill will against me. It's unfounded. If it makes you feel better, I will vow to never, ever, ever post a comment after either of you...no matter what.

Actually, I think that would be best in speaking about the true "heart" of the forum, Dorie. What you mean and how others take it is matter up for debate. I have to mention to you that I have received many, many e-mails in regard to offensive (taken that way) comments made by you on this forum, especially to beginners. Some of them left and did not post again.....ever. Either that, or maybe try to couch your comments in a softer way. I bet you are capable of doing that.

I have wondered why we never receive an actual Dorie-initiated post from you, but only responses. That leads me to think, "ah, ha! She knows all the answers and therefore, has no questions." And, if you don't have a camera so you can post images of your butterflies and moths, I would be the first to understand that. I always worry about folks who never have questions, but have lots of answers. Does that mean they have learned everything there is to know? If that's the case, then I really am impressed.

As to the ecosystem in its entirety, we all know it's going to heck in a hand basket. That's why we garden for the butterflies; that's why we provide them with a habitat that is, in many locations, lost, and continues to diminish at an alarming rate. Even the NWF suggests that in creating a habitat, you have to first have food, water, shelter, and a place to raise the young. If you don't have any host plants, that's fine, but commenting about the ".....absolute carnage" on this forum (yes, you made that comment on the Insect Forum, is not a good way to make friends here. And neither is the abrupt, I have all the answers, and therefore don't need to ask questions of any of us, responses to inquiries.

I, for one, would like to see you give us your "full" participation here, or, if that's not within your heart and ability to do, then go with our blessings.

I've decided I'm not leaving this forum. I practically "grew up" here. I have experienced my joys and my sorrows in regard to butterfly gardening, as well as the things I've learned in the process. I've made many friends by treating them with respect and not putting down ANY question that is asked. I do my best to cultivate a spirit of love of butterfly and moth gardening, and it just can't be done if you don't jump in with both feet.

Elaine, I owe you my deepest apologies, but this has been festering for a very long time after we've been patient and tried to sooth a lot of ruffled feathers. It really has nothing to do with your post AT ALL!

Susan

I agree with Rhizo1's original post too. Logical and reasonable. Beyond that, WOW! This thread surely has taken on a life of it's own! Maybe it belongs in the Cat Forum. Mrow! LOL!!!

I for one have always appreciated Rhizo's candid and honest answers. She obviously knows a great deal and we are lucky to have her here.

Re) not initiating posts (and this is just a guess - and I hesitate writing this because too much guessing and assuming has already been done here...), perhaps the questions she has can only be answered by more scientific-minded folks like herself. I mean, if I wanted to know about vacuolar acidification in barley aleurones, I call my sister, a PhD in plant physiology - I don't post on the Edible Landscape Forum at Gardenweb! ya know?

That is not to say there are not other science minded folks here. I just think the passion of raising beautiful creatures sometimes overpowers logic and reason sometimes in this forum. But without passion, there would be no life at all, so where would we be then? :)

Balance, people! Balance and moderation.

I also agree with OKSandy - one can't take things too personally. A lot of how we communicate as human beings (ie body language and facial expressions) is lost over the inter-netting and forum threads. I went and read the other posts mentioned above and personally didn't find anything offensive or rude. I am, however, seeing a lot of that here. :(

Alright I'm done. Didn't want to get involved but everything has taken on such a juvenile tone here I had to say my piece. Peace,

Sandy

PS Elaine, good luck with your pentas!!

Hehehe!! Let's see now......juvenile, catty, silly subculture.......yikes! This forum is gettin' mean! A girl could get her feelings hurt here!
ROTFLMAO!!
MissSherry

I know, MissSherry, the "science-minded" folks are calling people names, so apparently they have made that long descent to the "hobbyist level" to join all of us juvenile, catty, silly folks that just do this for pure pleasure. The lure of the plebeian class or something like that. Ooh, I named a sphinx that I, as a non-science-minded plebeian, know of. Who could ever have guessed that I might know something! I just simply amaze myself sometimes.

Susan

Oh dear, send them them all to me :-). I would give anything to have any kind of moths. I always plant extra everything in hopes.

I haven't had any butterflies this year.

This is all I've seen in my garden lately. I can always send her to one of you *lol*
{{gwi:492181}}

((((GROUP HUG))))

Edna

Edna - so sorry you haven't had any butterflies this year! :( But WOW! that is a gorgeous photo!

Hugs right back atcha!

Sandy