I found a picture of a Cecropia that has the same coloring and the four orange knobs in the front? Could these be Cecropias?

They're obviously some type of giant silkmoth related to cecropias/prometheas, but I don't remember my cecropias ever having so many "knobs" Sandy. I'll check my pictures of cecropias and my books.
How big are these cats?
Sherry

Here are my two pictures of cecropia cats, Sandy. Early instars -
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Late instar -
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I'll look more later, but I've got to go to Walmart and maybe the dentist.
Those cats are gorgeous, and whatever they are, you're SO lucky to have them all over your buttonbush - congrats, congrats!
Sherry

Right now they're fairly small. This one had just molted. It's probably about an inch to 1.25 long. I brought two more in since I read they are very suspectible to parasites.

Sandy

I read in Wagner that this is the time to find Cecropia larva.

It's a Cecropia. I found this photo on the web. The picture looks exactly like mine.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:481512}}

Sure brings back fond memories as I've reared Robin moths so many times. They just never failed to amaze me when they emerged as one of the most beautiful of all moths.

This bug is about as polyphagous as it gets, but I still didn't remember Cephalanthus as a LFP for it. So I looked it up in my stuff. Sure enough, Cephalanthus is listed for H. cepropia and euryalus; Rothschildia a. speculifera and orizaba; Callisamia promethea; and Citheronia regalis.

"All over my bush" suggests you won't have a bush left BTT you get these reared Sandy. We used to find them commonly on Populus tremuloides in the Rockies, and I remember 20' tall trees being completely defoliated by a few as a half dozen of them. At least not being very picky you can feed them almost anything you have to take the pressure off your buttunbush. If you get in trouble plant wise LMK as I have a list of way over 100 plants they'll readily use.

Great picture BTW ladies.

Larry

Thanks, Larry!
Now that I think about it, I remember that in the middle instars they have a lot more knobs than in the last one/s, but for whatever reason, I didn't get a picture of a middle instar cat. It looks like in the middle instars they retain the number of knobs from the early instars, but show the green coloring of the last.
Larry's not kidding about them eating a lot!!
Sherry

Thanks, Larry and Sherry. If I run out of Buttonbush, I'll see what I can find. I leave for Thailand in 2+ weeks, so I will probably have to trust these guys to the people at Oxley Nature Center. There is lots and lots of BB there. They can put the cats on display as they continue to feed them. Then it will be overwintering them. I found an awesome site that showed all the stages and even pupal photos. I've included the link for anyone interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: Life cycle of Cecropia Moth

That's a great life cycle site, Sandy, but I sure wouldn't cut open the cocoon to get a look at what's developing inside and probably puncture and kill the poor thing!
I think my male from last year was prettier than his, if you don't mind me bragging :0 -
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Sherry

I had to google a picture. WOW! it is one of the most beautiful moths. Congratulations.

Any tips on raising these guys, Sherry?

I raised them pretty much like I do any other caterpillar, Sandy. I punched holes in left over containers and added water, then stuck the host plant material in the holes. I find the left over containers work better for big moth cats than water picks, because the water picks tend to tip over with the weight of the cats, plus you have to change/add food so often it's a pain. With left over containers, you can put whole stems with lots of leaves into each hole. I keep extra containers, so that when I clean up and bring them fresh food, I can put the (old) host plant food with the cats on it into the clean container, plus add a fresh stem of leaves next to the old food. The cats will soon finish the old food and crawl over to the new. Then I take the old container, which is covered with frass, to the sink to clean it, plus change the paper towels.
I've never raised a cat on buttonbush, even though I've got a huge one - I've never found anything but web worms on it, but I've read that quite a few moths will lay their eggs on it.
Cecropias are very easy to raise if you have the patience to feed and feed and feed for what seems like forever - the results are worth it!
Sherry

MissSherry's early instar pictures looked so much like some cats I commonly find on milkweed in Mexico that I looked up the host plants. I don't think mine are cecropias after all, but this web page showing the cecropia life cycle is fascinating.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cecropia life cycle in pictures

No doubt a water cage is the only way to rear cats with big appetites like these guys have. Somethong that's quick and easy to service as many times a day as is needed. I saw some of mine during the move... really need to go find one and take some pictures for you folks. They work for almost any species worldwide. But its 115 in the shade here right now and who knows in the enclosed storage garage. I know, I'll sucker my son into digging one out for me next time he comes and has some extra time. He just got back from 5 days fishing up in southern Utah's high country, so he's ripe for the picking. LOL

L.

Water cage sounds interesting. I've made the acquaintance of a person who makes all kinds of bird feeders, houses, etc, and we've discussed some butterfly rearing houses. I've realized I need a better setup for raising lep than I have now--plastic containers and paper bags.

I think a good setup would be something like a bunny hutch that has legs with a pan that can be removed to take out frass.

Sandy

Cool website, gcertain. I especially loved seeing the Asian moths. They are exquisite.

Hmm...Sandy, I wonder if you did make a bunny cage with a very fine mesh on the bottom it would allow most of the frass to fall through. You could have different sizes for different size caterpillars. Good luck with your beauty!

I saw this cecropia a little while ago; she or he must have just emerged. It was a beautiful sight--my first; last year I kept seeing the cats either run over or parasitized or both.

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That is a beauty, BG. I haven't seen the moths around here, so this was quite a surprise to find the cats. I'm excited after seeing Sherry's and your photos.

Sandy

Sandy,

As you can imagine, I've tried just about everything over the years for mating, rearing, overwintering and protecting lepidopteran livestock. There is nothing wrong with plastic containers if the numbers are small enough, and paper bags have always been a standard egg laying. Not to rear in, but paper bags have always been my choice for moths to lay eggs in.

What most systems I tried lacked was a way to completely control every aspect of the livestocks environment while still being easy to use with any kind of LFP (temperature, humidity, air flow, photo period, etc). Plus cages had to be able to be sized for up to many hundreds of larva at a time. The system I finally came up with was so good IMO that variations of it became what I've used for almost all species I've reared since the mid 80's. There are some exceptions, like Parnassinae that have special requirements that don't lend well to this system, but for most species it works perfect in duplicating their natural environment which assures faster growth and better health. Note that because it was devised while I still lived in the deep snow country, it was also designed for rearing indoors and with plant cuttings rather than living plants outdoors. For outdoors on LFP's growning on my property (or out in the wilds on extended trips) I simply used sleeves on the plants. Placement on the plant effected some control over temperature and misting helped with humidity, but they were more or less on their own otherwise so be careful where you place a sleeve that they can't escape from. The sleeve was just a simple cage to keep them contained, and to protect them from predators. I commonly left sleeved livestock behind as I hiked for the day, then would check and remove them on the way back or before leaving an area for good. Several variously sized sleeves took up very little room in a day pack. Sometimes I used them to contain larva, but more often to contain gravid females netted on the hike if on an extended trip where I wouldn't get home to my laying cages that night.

The bunny hutch idea is workable for sure and would be similar to the outdoor overwintering cages I made when i lived in the snow country. But you can not easily control all aspects of the environment with them and so why I would still use my cages indoors over them for my rearing.

I'm just talking in circles here. When my son called this morning I told him when he gets by to visit I need him to go dig out one of our rearing cages for me. Then I can get some pictures taken to post. Easy to make from fairly cheap materials, and as mine have they last for decades of hard use.

L.

Thanks, Larry. I appreciate your input. For the time, these guys will make it. There were only three that I immediately found and brought in to raise. I have them in a large container with the plant stems in water. They seem to be doing great, and the plant does well in water. I'm getting frass and can see the leaves disappearing.

I have the name of a person who would probably be glad to keep these while I'm gone. She works at Oxley Nature Center. I learned that they get a lot of the cats on their Buttonbushes. However, they don't remove them to raise. I know, however, my little habitat has plenty of parasites (from experiences with leaving other lep on plants). Very few survive. Plus, I'd love to see the life cycle of these guys.

Take care of yourself--don't do anything crazy in this heat.

Sandy

BTW Sandy, wish I could stow away on the trip to Thailand. I realize this is for family and that you won't have a lot of time for bugs, but as you know there are some realy fun species there. Take pictures for us if you can and have a safe trip girl. Larry

Nice!
I have 3 Cynthias and a Promethea in my tent... never get to see the cats since I send the eggs out, thanks for sharing!
SB

A quick note:

Cats are growing and Buttonbush is a great plant for cuttings. It holds up in water quite well--possibly because it grows along water sources in the wild.

Larry, if I could pack you up in my suitcase like "Flat Stanley", I would. I will have time to look for bugs. I'm going to look up a guy who documents bugs in the Chiang Mai area. If he has time, maybe he will show me good areas for photos.

My grandson loves Nana's bugs, so I'm sure he will go out with me. I am going to bring a small butterfly net along for him. Just 2 more weeks until we leave! I'm getting excited!!!

Sandy

Sandy,
Chiang Mai... is it Adam Cotton by chance?
Larry

Sandy, That's a beautiful picture! Congrats! I've never raised any of them but maybe someday. I've never seen of the moths here.

Larry, I am looking forward to seeing those pictures of your rearing cages! I raise hundreds of cats each year and could sure use an easier way to do it. My ways are very time consuming and I keep thinking surely there's an easier way. You probably found it!

Cathy

No, it's not Adam Cotton. His name is John Moore. It appears he took his email off his website. Here is a link to his site.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thai Bugs

I'd like to see a picture of your rearing cage, too, Larry.
Sherry

Congrats Sandy on your new charges. I raised a bunch last year. It was fun but I got so tired that my last one was 1/3 the size of my first one. Poor thing got the last of my maple leaves. I did open up a cocoon as an experiment. It did eclose just fine. In fact it was the largest and nicest of mine that came out. I was nervous doing it though. You just have to be very careful cutting the silk. Start at the very end. You can tell where the pupa is in relation to the silk pretty easily. It is really, really cool to see the imprint of the antennae and abdomen right on the pupa even before they form. Of course wait till they have hardened to do this. There is a really cool site (www.wormspit.com) where he raises giant silkmoths for the cocoons and spins the silk to weave. So, he cuts all the cocoons off to use. Neat Stuff. Have fun in Thailand. I echo Larry. Wish I could go. I would rather be hot and sticky there than hot and sticky in Ohio.

Cheers,
Elisabeth

Have a great trip in Thailand, Sandy! What butterflies are you hoping to see? I took a quick look at the link, and, wow, incredible butterflies; it's interesting to see some that look familiar. The V. indica and they have Limenitis too!

Will you get to see your cecropias as adults?

BG and Elizabeth, thanks for the good wishes for the trip. Elizabeth, both myself and Geni posted the website for Wormspit. I found the site absolutely incredible.

BG, I hope to get to see the Cecropias as adults. It won't happen until next year. I will have to have someone "cat" sit while I am gone. I just brought in about a dozen Monarch eggs this evening. And I watched 2 males pursue a female Monarch. One male knocked her to the ground and mated with her. He then flew off to a tree with her in tow, for some "privacy." So, I'm sure there will be more eggs soon. I got pictures as I was snapping the female on the Buttonbush. Then the 2 males lit. And then the scramble on the ground. The photos aren't the best, but they document what happened. My husband's comment was, "Butterfly rape."

Sandy

Sandy,
I still have all the contact info for Adam (addy, phone numbers, etc), but it's about 20 years old. So I have no idea if he's even still there. He specialized in rearing the Papilionidae and Sphingidae of Thailand to study their life histories. Anyway, if you want the contact info for him (just in case you have time while there) I'll email it to you. LMK.
Larry

Larry, I'd love the info. If he's not there, so be it. But if he is, he might be able to point me to the places where I can see the most/best Lep. You can send a message to butterflymombixby at yahoo dot com.

Sandy

Sandy,
OK, will do. I had a different email addy, but will send it to this one.
Larry

Sandy, great minds think alike. I actually found wormspit while looking for something else. I emailed back and forth with the guy for a while. I was going to buy something from him. I like to buy from artisans. Unfortunatly, it was pretty expensive. $10 an inch for regular silkworm silk. He didn't think he had enough of cecropia silk to weave anything. We are trying to collect enough giant silkmoth silk at the house to do a program on it this summer. Maybe I will try weaving something myself. With my skill level it will probably look like one of those pot holders I made at camp when I was seven.
-Elisabeth

One of these guys pupated yesterday. Another seems to be getting ready to today. I don't know if it normally happens, but these two purged. I thought I might have a sick cat yesterday until the cat started running around looking for a place to pupate, This morning he is working on his cocoon. When it's finished I'll post a photo as he pupated between the glass and a paper towel in an old aquarium where I moved him.

Looking forward to hearing about pupation and photos!

Sandy, in my experience cecropias, like all silk moth cats, DO purge, but they don't expel nearly as much as most swallowtail cats, very little relative to their big size.
Their color changes a little, to a slightly yellowish color, but, again, it's not as drastic a change as many swallowtails make.
Sherry

Thanks, Miss Sherry. Third one purged, only one to go.

I have photos of the cecropia size right before pupation and the cocoon.

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All four caterpillars are now in cocoons waiting until next spring.

Sandy

Congrats Sandy on ur cats and cocoons! I've thot about calling but didnt know if you could hold the phone - lol!

Susan

The famous cecropia/buttonbush was about to go away and I could not let that happen. I've been a big buttonbush fan since this topic showed up 2 years ago.

I'm still hoping to see pics of Larry's rearing cages.

KC