Lisa:

I was wondering whether anyone else had this same issue from the 2007 offering of this sp. Definitely now looks like a mixed (?) collection of Orthophytum cf. hatschbachii and O. albopictum. I have two founders purchased from this vendor, one that was received in January and the other in late April and they appear to be different spp. I have attached a pic of the flowering of the plant first acquired that matches yours. I have asked the vendor about the origin/ID of these plants but have not yet received a response (theirs had not flowered as of early March).

FYI - post-anthesis, when grown full sun these plants briefly change from concolorous deep red to a glowing yellow color, which then fades to greenish yellow as the mother plant senesces.

I certainly am crossing my fingers that the second plant turns out to be O. albopictum! While pretty, I certainly don't need a stable of these things.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/stonejaguar/Orthophytumspcloseup.jpg

Jay

stone jaguar, by "this vendor" do you mean Michael's? I'll ask him about it, but I think he had to go to another grower to find mine. I'm not seeing a match of your plant and mine, though. Yours looks much glossier, as do both the FCBS photos of hatschbachii, which curiously don't match each other either! The first one shows green floral bracts and a green ring around the inflorescence while the second one has red bracts. I don't think mine could be hatschbachii, as it has always had a scurfy coating, which up until it started to bloom was plain green. I can't tell from the photos of albopictum whether or not it has some scurf, but it seems like the floral bracts should be white, not red.

As to "cf. hatschbachii", how did you arrive at that conclusion? Why not cf. albopictum or cf. burle-marxii? Just visually, mine looks closer to a burle-marxii than either of the other two species to me, but I have both O. burle-marxii and var. seabrae, and this is definitely distinct from either of those. I don't know what the defining characteristics of each species is though, or if the flowers will tell me anything once they open.

Here is a link that might be useful: O. hatschbachii

Lisa:

On closer examination, you do appear to have something rather different...the leaves are quite a bit more lepidote than mine. These plants here are "scurfy" only on the undersides of their leaves, with scales concentrated apically.

O. hatschbachii is just another of this group of closely-related, rosetted Orthos that flush red at anthesis. Unlike O. albopictum, which is described as a relatively large (>50 cm) leafy rosette, this plant is compact (35 cm) and does not hold a whole lot of leaves. Flowers are conspicuously small when compared to the images of the other taxa you mention. As you are probably aware, there are other spp. in this group that are in the process of being described, incl. O. "sanguineum", reportedly with red-banded leaves and red f-b's. I have requested a determination of this plant from a friend who is familiar with the genus, but have not heard anything back yet...hence the "cf.". I also have O. burle-marxii var. b.m. and it is def. a different critter. You may, indeed, have one of the lovely burle-marxii forms that flush entirely red at anthesis; I have read that they occur and believe there is an image of one at a U.S. show somewhere on the web.

As noted, the second plant in my collection is already much larger than this, is much leafier and more erect at this stage, has thrown four sizeable pups, and shows no signs of coloring up yet in spite of having long since outgrown it's cousin...fingers (and toes!) crossed that it's a textbook albopictum. I purchased them at Tropiflora, but understand that they still have not flowered any of theirs. It would be interesting to know whether any of the other growers of Spines on this forum that may have bought albopictum from TF last Spring have flowered their plants yet and, if so, how they look.

Ciao,

Jay

Update: it's blooming, but I don't know it that helps much. It still doesn't match anything on FCBS, and I really can't see a lot of difference in the actual flowers of hatschbachii, amoenum, albopictum, burle-marxii, etc. I guess you need a microscope.

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The good news is that my O. navioides is blooming too, and I still have some freezer pollen from O. burle-marxii v. Seabrae, so I can have some fun with those!

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Love all the flat ones, I just wish it had white rings! I'm dying for an O. heleniceae or mucugense....

Hi Lisa...Those are stunning! though they don't have the ring!

Beyond Burle-marxii, Seabrae and Navioides, I have not had those you are dying for yet,
but months ago, while I visited Nong Nooch Tropical Botanical Garden
I found these interesting Ortho. in the Brom collection,
Mr Anders, the curator, brought them from Mary Selby.

Orth. albopictum

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Orth. hatschbachii
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Lovely plants, all.

Linda, the flowers on your plant are considerably larger than those on my cf. hatschbachii. Likewise, the side-by-side with the navioides shows just how powdery the leaves look when compared to my plants. While somewhat hard to tell from Stephania's first photo, both spp. illustrated appear to have fairly glossy leaves. Plant #2 at the house looks like it has a long way to go before blooming, but I'll post a pic when it does. The FCBS website does have some questionably-ID'd plants on the site...obviously, this will happen when managing an image bank as large as this one...so I wouldn't lose any sleep over any incongruities evident there when dealing with terrestrial esoterica.

Has your vendor been able to provide you with any additional accession data on your plant?

BTW - based on photos he has posted of his private collection over the past years and these, Stephania's curatorial and horticultural talents are sorely needed at NN!

Ciao,

Jay

Thanks for your nice words, Jay (^_^)

Dr Joachim Saul, my friend took some photos from the Swiss Succulent Collection
in Zurich and posted in a bromeliad forum which could be an interesting for the topic.

Here is a link that might be useful: Orthophytum cf. albopictum

Chanin, although it's hard to tell much from unblooming plants, those albopictum at Nong Nooch look about the same as mine did before blooming. Here are the pups I removed from it:

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If Anders got them from Selby then maybe I should send a picture of mine to Harry Luther and see if it matches theirs. I haven't asked Michael about it yet. If he got it elsewhere he may not know anything about it. It's even possible it could have come from that same mixed batch of Tropiflora plants.

Jay, I know FCBS is full of erroneously IDed photos, and while I don't exactly lose sleep over it, it does become a problem when I use it as a guide when ordering plants. I know species markings and coloration can be variable, but the name albopictum seems to refer to some white area in the center of the leaves, so I would expect that to be characteristic of the species in general.

Lisa:

You are almost certainly correct in your assumption. All of the images I have seen of this sp. when in flower show the white center and overall red flush quite clearly. The more I look at the images of your plant and compare it to my young burle-marxii var. b-m, I suspect that you have obtained a very, very good clone of this taxon. How hard are your growing conditions for these? I have all of my rosetted Orthos exposed to full sunlight for a full 12 hrs and they are quite "tight" and upright. Obviously, at 1,600 m elevation rather nearer to the Equator than you are, UV intensity is quite a bit higher. What surprises me is the speed with which the pups pictured have taken off. While my unflowered "albopictum" has already pushed four good-sized offsets in the past nine mos, they are nowhere near as vigorous as yours are. The cf. hatschbachii has two large offsets still attached and one small one just pushing out from the base.

In any event, the folks at SBG should probably be able to clear up the taxonomic status of your plant. The descriptions of several of the spp. we are discussing (like hatschbachii) were published in Selbyana, so they have type material in the herbarium there.

Jay

I've been growing them under 40% shade and they've been reasonably well fed. I agree that the inflorescence does look more like burle-marxii than any other species I've looked at, but it differs from my other b-m v. b-m, which has an all-over red cast even before anthesis, and is a much "harder" plant, thick and firm where this one is fairly soft and flexible. In addition this one is much faster growing than either v. b-m or v. Seabrae, and a much freer pupper.

Do you think it could have been part of a hybrid swarm? I'll see what Harry has to say.

Lisa:

Perhaps. I'm wondering whether the entire lot of plants may have derived from mixed WC seed...if so, this would explain the variation.

The bad rep that b-m has may derived from it having been grown thus far in the 'States from a formerly small sample that may or may not be maladapted. This occurs quite frequently in other plant groups where an initially limited genetic offering has led people to conclude that X species is painfully slow/hard-to-grow/impossible/ugly, ad. nauseum. If you have the Venzuelan Brom society's growers guide, there are several so-so pics of b-m in cultivation, as well as albos, variegated navioides, etc. One of the pics in that publication bears a strong resemblance to your plant, altho' def. not as concolorously red. At the same time, I distinctly remember seeing a photo of a putative b-m that was awarded by a U.S. society somewhere on the web that was even redder overall than yours. I think that we are all used to seeing the same (hard to grow?) powdery-gray form with the vivid red heart that we balk at accepting any other ecotypes as being the same critter.

In any event, I think your particular plant is extremely handsome/desireable even if it is a hybrid - which I think we both hope it is not.

Cheers,

J

I'm certainly happy with its ease of propagation, Jay, and it is a beauty as well. You're right, I shied away from even attempting O. burle-marxii for years because of its reputation as difficult. As a hybridizer myself, I'm no purist. I wouldn't really mind if it did turn out to be a hybrid, I just want to be able to call it by the right name, particularly if I can get any crosses with it to take.

Where can one get a copy of the Venezuelan grower's guide? It sounds like it has some interesting illustrations.

The book's title is, "Bromelias - Una Guía para Aficionados" and is published by the Comité de Bromeliología de la Sociedad Venezolana de Ciencias Naturales (Caracas, Venezuela). Obviously, it can be purchased there directly. Some friends brought several copies back from Franz Gruber's commercial nursery in Colombia and distributed them here in Guatemala. I just checked AbeBooks' Spanish title search and came up zilch. I would imagine there are more than a few copies kicking around the 'States, so I would do a periodic check of online book dealers for it. If I can get a couple more copies I'll give you a heads up. From what I've seen of it, some copies have iffy color separation which detracts from being a very good starters handbook. Some nice Ven garden illustrations, as well as some interesting variegates and a surprising number of offbeat terrestrials for a beginners guide.

Ciao,

J

Well, I'm not planning any trips to Latin America, Jay, so if you happen to come across an extra copy just drop me a note.

Meanwhile, I sent a photo to Harry and he agrees that it's burle-marxii v. b-m.

Lisa:

I'll certainly make an effort to obtain a couple of spare copies. My partners import good numbers of finished plants from Franz every couple of months, so I'll try and get some of these guides tossed in with the next order. No promises, since I'm not certain that he still stocks them at the nursery, but I will make a genuine effort.

Glad to see that we have a solid name for your critter. I REALLY like the color, and think you should take advantage of having obtained a "good" clone to prop the bejeezus outta that feller and dispel the "tricky" b-m myth.

BTW - not really my genus, but your stunning 'Domingos Martins' hybrids are, IMO, some of the nicest-looking exoterica I've ever seen.

Ciao,

Jay

Thanks, Jay!

BTW, Harry sent me this photo of Selby's O. albopictum. He considers it a poor clone but it's still got the characteristic white center.

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