I'm so sorry your butterflies can't fly, that is always very sad. Maybe someone else has an idea about why they can't

Elaine

Are these butterflies you observed in nature, or did you raise them yourself?

I will be interested to hear other comments on this as well. About half of the monarchs I am seeing emerge in my yard currently have crumpled wings as well.

I was guessing it is a viral/bacterial problem.

They wild outside I never bring them in .But they all have a small bind in lower wing and havent been flying they just stay on that old fence .I have seen this only a few times with GF but it was rare .To have so many swallowtails have this happen kinda scares me is it normal to have so many with this wing flaw or could they be sick.

I'll be interested in seeing responses to this question, too. The only reason I ever knew that would cause crumpled wings, is not enough room, or no place to hang freely so that the wings would dry properly. Doesn't seem to be the case here, unless the Monarchs emerged on the ground or something and then managed to crawl to the fence after it was too late and the wings had already dried in a crumpled form.

Susan

Here is one of the coons that had bad wings.

{{gwi:453550}}

It does look like it is not going to have room to fully expand the wings, by the looks of the leaf below it. I would just bet that is what caused the fragile wings not to fully expand. They just have to have enough free space in order to be able to pump fluid into the wings. If the wings touch anything when the butterfly emerges, they will end up drying out without being fully expanded.

Next time, you could make sure there is nothing to impede the expansion of the wings, unless it's a brick wall or something! It would seem that they might be able to climb up a bit higher in order to do that, but in this case, they must not have done that. The damp wings hung in a "wrinkled" position, and when the butterfly began pumping fluid into them, they didn't straighten out completely and once the fluid is gone, it's gone, and nothing can be done to further inflate the wings in the proper extended position.

I had this happen with a couple of mine that made cocoons in places where they were unable to inflate their wings. They died because they were unable to fly then.

Susan

I did some reading (along with the rest of you!!!) and I came away with the impression that there is a great deal still unknown about this problem. 'Unknown reasons'. Not having enough room to fully expand is merely one of the reasons.

I wonder if temperatures have anything to do with it. Are they eclosing before their bodies have had a chance to collect enough energy from the sun, and the wings dry before they can fully expand them?

I read that temps can contribute to the issue, Rhizo, but from everything I read, taken on the whole, it seems that most often the reason for wings that dry in crumpled positions, is not enough room to fully expand their wings. Soon after pupation, as I understand, from my research, the butterfly pumps blood into the veins (that act like drinking straws) of the wings, and then retracts the blood back into its system, leaving the vein hollow with air, and those air-filled veins then allow the butterfly to fly. If the wings cannot fully stretch out, then the wings dry in various crumpled positions. Biologically speaking, the butterfly's "circulatory system" if you will, will not re-uptake (or re-downtake) the blood back into the veins to repair the wings. It's an OTO (one time only) deal.

Other reasons could be OE, a disease that afflicts butterflies, and you can read about it in the FAQs, and probably many other reasons. Wind can also be a factor.

Susan

It has been very windy here maybe that is it .Both days it has been very windy many of my pots were blown over in the wind.

I just noticed this thread and the first thing that came to my mind wasn't space for the butterfly to 'pump its wings' but OE. I've found that those butterflies that are not 'perfect' are often the ones when I test them for OE show that they've been infected by the spores...they are also the same butterflies that if you do allow them to fly, do not fly very well at all.

Today is a fairly windy day in Costa Mesa and I had a Monarch eclose. I could tell immediately, prior to it being tested, that it was probably one that was going to test positive for OE. It wasn't a strong flier even OUT of the wind. Sure enough, it tested positive.

Last year I had only one raised monarch who didn't make it out into the world.

When it emerged from it's chrysalis, it fell. I quickly tried to get it to climb up a stick. It fell a few more times so I put it outside on a container plant. It was a windy day and the wings dried bent. It was very weak from the moment of eclosion.

Since it wouldn't survive and may have been infected I sadly euthanized it.

This year I will test for OE.

Maryann

Can you get test kits from Monarch Watch, CalSherry?

I only had one or two with crumpled wings, and I knew it was from the way the chrysalis had hung. Unfortunately, I did not find them until they emerged. Sometimes, the little buggers can really hide their chrysalis from you! And, of course, I always look in the more obvious places. I will have to be more attentive this year.

Susan

I agree with CalSherry about OE... although she would know much more about that than I! :)

I do know that most of my monarchs whose chrysalides I removed from the top of my cage (so I could clean it) and put in the bottom of tupperware (take-out containers lined with window screening) all climbed to the top of the mini-enclosure no problem and dried their wings beautifully - so if something is blocking thier way I would think that butterflies *usually* have the instinct to climb higher... unless of course there is something more complicated messing with their systems, like OE.

You can test for OE if you have a high-powered microscope - I have my dad's and attempted to check for the spores last summer. Fascinating stuff!

The University of Georgia has a research program that you can participate in (see link below) - they will send you a free kit and explain how to test. Of course this doesn't help with the immediate issue of diagnosing a problem and the question of whether or not to euthanize. :I

MonarchWatch's website and forums are also a great place to search for answers. Good luck! :)

Sandy

Here is a link that might be useful: Project Monarch Health

Okay, white flag time! Hee Hee. I just know that a couple of mine managed to get under a saucer I had sitting in the bottom of the enclosure and formed their chrysalises. The saucer was spacious enough to accommodate the chrysalis, but not spacious enough for the butterfly to expand the wings. At that point, by the time I discovered them, it was too late, and they were actually too big to get through the slit between the edge of the saucer and the enclosure. Consequently, they dried with crumpled wings. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! LOL!

I actually worried more about the cats that died and the chrysalises that turned black without any BF eclosing. Those were the ones that I suspected might be suffering from OE. But, I don't know for sure w/o testing. That's why I was asking about the OE test kit.

Susan

Susanlynne - oh no! That is WAY too silly of the caterpillars to form chrysalises under a saucer...!!! LOL indeed!!!!! I retract my statement about the buggers knowing better!! Ha.

I also remember seeing a photo of a certain somebody who had a chrysalids all over her bathroom.... including on the seat of her toilet...! tee hee.

I wish there were an easy way to test fo OE too. Anyone...?

Sandy

Sandy,
Testing for OE is actually quite easy if you have a microscope, white paper, and some tape. The U of Georgia's link has FAB pictures of how to do it so I highly recommend checking out their link (above) for their easy-to-follow instructions. Thanks to Dr. Altizer I no longer have to give step-by-step instructions on doing this! :)

IF your chrysalides were BLACK then chances are HIGHLY likely that your larvae were afflicted with either a bacterial or viral infection. Check our FAQ for more info. I wrote up a blurb and Larry-Gene included it there. :) Perhaps that will be of assistance!

One way to help to lessen some of the problems with raising Monarchs is to make sure that you keep the moisture in the raising environment to a MINIMUM. This includes making sure that the leaves you provide are DRY. I actually wipe off each leaf with anti-bacterial tissues (yes, it takes a long time but is worth it in the long run).

When you collect larvae in the wild, particularly those that are in the later instars, you just don't know if they've been parasitized by Tachinid Flies so another thing to keep an eye out for is those long stringy things that come off the chrysalis...OR if you notice a dark spot on the chrysalis as this may be an indicator that a !@#$% Tachinid Fly is about to drop! If you do see those long strings, it is time to smoosh the pupa and smoosh those reddish beans or you will be raising Tachinid Flies!

Sherry, that is what I do with my milkweed leaves. I wash them, then dry them off with a paper towel. For one thing, leaving the water on them, with the leaves then put into a container, may be enough to drown them (it scares me, whether it does anyone else). So, I always dry them off well, and any surplus goes into the fridge until ready for use.

What "strength", or how powerful should the microscope be in order to check for OE? I will definitely check out the site - do you have a link?

Susan

Susan,
I don't know what is the 'best' strength/power microscope for testing for OE. I wonder if Dr. Altizer listed it within her link...I will have to check. My stereoscope is made by National.

Sherry - I totally did the tape thing with my Monarchs! :) Quite easy. I was pretty sure I knew what to look for (little rice-football-shaped buggers) among the scales and what have you.... but didn't see anything.

MonarchWatch suggested using 40-100x, but my dad's microscope is so antiquated that it got a little frustrating using it. Like I said, I didn't see anything, but 9 out of the 10 samples I previously sent (before I acquired the microsope) to Dr. Altizer DID test positive for OE. :( Of course, I'm not sure if they're counting 10s or 100s of spores to consider it "infested" and "positive" for OE.

Sandy

Here is a link that might be useful: Monarch Watch Photo

Thanks for the info, Sandy.

Susan

I know this thread is a few months old, but I will put in my 2 cents. For several years, we have brought in catepillars on our parsley plants and they cocooned and then reentered the world in our screened in porch. They always have crumpled leaves at first. Sometimes it takes several hours before their wings straighten out. Then they have to warm up before they can fly. This may not be the case with your butterflies....