tox, It's a good point, but target plant selectivity is a hallmark of herbicide development. What everyone wants is high effectiveness with only the target plant, and no effect on the crop being protected. For clopyralid, as an example, forage and grass hays are permitted a residual level of 500 ppm. We know that tomatoes are sensitive to levels of 30 ppb in the soil. If you couple that kind of effective selectivity with some environemtal persistence, then the stage gets set for someone, somewhere to have an issue. edit - To illustrate the point -- if the half life for degradation were 30 days (about the average for clopyralid), and the soil level were 10 ppm, then by my calculation it would take ~9 months for that 10 ppm to decay to a level of While farmers did use to love the persistent aspect, many are now questioning the desirability because of how their options can get cut when faced with a need for crop rotation. That hit ND wheat farmers when scab became an issue. I have heard anecdotally that WI dairy farmers in some areas are now prohibited from exporting their manures off-farm, and many are running out of places to keep the stuff. My suspicion is that market forces in the ag world may set a new direction before EPA and registration become a major issue. This post was edited by TXEB on Thu, May 2, 13 at 12:44

Wonderful information, and free too. I'm a great supporter of this technique. It's amazing how in a few years you can turn the worst soil into the best garden in the neighborhood.

Glenda, Your estimate of $1 a can for pumpkin was probably just a number picked to make the math easier, but in reality I doubt you will find it that cheap anywhere. When I have checked it, it was $1.37 for the smallest can and over $2 for the larger pie mix type. I have been watching it because I read an article from Libby that said that we might have trouble finding their pumpkin this year. It said that they believed in canning only the finest pumpkin and had planted huge crops but the weather conditions kept them from getting in the fields at the proper time for harvest. I think this is 2 years in a row with a lowered production. They said they would plant even more for next year. It's nice to know that we can plant our own and are likely to get a good crop. I am making room in my garden for some, and I know just which one I am going to plant. In fact, I probably know about a dozen people that will be planting the same one. LOL Since you have such a large place you don't have a problem, but some of us have to find a way to squeeze all those vining things into a smaller backyard space. I suspect that I will be stepping through a lot of vines this year because there are so many things I want to plant. I have a four foot chain link fence on three sides of my garden. The fence is ours so I can plant on it if I want. My two neighbors will have a choice, I guess. They can cut it back or harvest on their side of the fence. I know it is impossible to contain some of those winter squash vines and some melons. This year I had squash growing up the cages on my peppers and had made themselves quiet comfortable and impossible to move long before I noticed since I always picked the pepper from the path on the other side. Even some of the summer squash can get really big. I planted Zucchetta Rampicante Trombocino in a large tub size container in my yard this year. The vines ran up the five foot tomato cage, then down again to the ground then over 15 feet across the lawn. I kept picking them up and moving them back around the pot so I could mow the grass but finally had to give up and let the grass grow up near the pot because I had a mountain of vines there. I had three vines in the pot and every squash that came off of two of them was wonderful. The third one wasn't nearly as productive and would occasionally produce a hard squash. I will grow it again though because we loved it and it was extremely productive. I only had a few seed left so I let the last squash get larger than normal and haven't cut it yet, hoping I will get more seed to plant. Overall we were very pleased with the squash. It was great just sliced into sticks and stir-fried. I also pickled some and we just opened the first jar last week and really enjoyed it. Al liked it boiled, drained, and topped with parmasen cheese. I have heard some people say they don't like them, but we did.

Thanks for the link, it is an excellent article. The reason that I started a formal potager was my veggie garden was so much work. I edged it with brick to keep a neat edge. I also use the cardboard and newspaper with grass clippings to keep weeds down. I'm so much more pleased with it now and the amount of time that I need to spend to keep it looking good. I've also unsed the lasagne method to start new garden areas right over top of sod. Which is so much easier than digging it out. I don't own a tiller.