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quercus_alba2

Tulip tree hardiness.

quercus_alba2
9 years ago

This summer my sister, who lives in Washington DC, brought me a tulip tree seedling she dug up in the DC area.I am worried about hardiness.What are the chances of a tulip tree from the DC area surviving a zone 4 Minnesota winter?

Comments (48)

  • salicaceae
    9 years ago

    There are a few around the Twin Cities, including a large one at the MN Landscape Arboretum. They've seen their share of zone 4 winters. When I lived in St. Paul I had a columnar/fastigiate cultivar called 'Arnold' that I acquired from a nursery in Duluth (where it was also growing well). Success is most likely with seedlings from seed of northern trees. Not sure about a DC source, but it won't be as hardy as a source from central Michigan or NY.

  • rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7
    9 years ago

    Early bloomers, the beautiful flowers are likely to be killed annually in your location, I would think.

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  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago

    i have no problem in my cold z5 ...

    and it took almost 10 years for them to start blooming enough to notice ..

    extremely fast and large tree.. locate appropriately ...

    it should have been planted months ago .... where is it now ...its 16 degrees this morning near ann arbor MI.. i would not be taking a houseplant outdoors today ... which leads tooooo ...

    more facts please ...

    ken

  • corkball
    8 years ago

    I am curious too. I never acquired any because I thought it was a lost cause, but just googling around, I see examples at MN arboretum, Saint Paul, and Eau Claire

    http://www.stpaul.gov/index.aspx?NID=4681

    I might just give it a whack. When I lived in Madison, WI (zone4-5) I know there were some large ones there.

  • whaas_5a
    8 years ago

    It all depends on what you define as a zone 4 MN winter.

    For example if you're borderline zone 4a and planting in an open area, hell no. Its too big and fast growing of a tree to zone push in my opinion (unless it was a known zone 4 even 5 seed source).

    If you at the high end of zone 4b with a bit of a microclimate I'd be more inclined to plant as its a nice shade tree.

  • leftwood
    8 years ago

    I have had one at my place just west of the Arboretum since 1995. Below is a pic taken in 2011. First bloom was in 2008. Bloom comes in June, well after leaves emerge and mature. I don't know what could be meant by "early bloomer" and " likely to be killed annually in your location". Although, it does leaf out rather late compared to most trees here. Perhaps that is not normal in its native range. I originally dug it in a friend's yard south of Chicago, provenance unknown, as it was bought at a local nursery.

  • leftwood
    8 years ago

    Apparently, I can only post one pic per post.

  • whaas_5a
    8 years ago

    Mine leafs out a bit later too so it likely wouldn't be damaged annually.

    Mine was grown in IL can't guarantee the seed source. Planted in protected location, somewhat similar to yours. It hasn't seen a true zone 5a winter yet when it comes to extremes.

    This is the year my borderline plants will be tested.

  • quercus_alba2
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I know there are tulip trees in zone 4.I was specifically wondering about a tree from such a Southern source.DC is what,zone 6 or 7?

  • famartin
    8 years ago

    DC proper is solid Zone 7. Some of the NW burbs are zone 6.

    You might as well try it. Unless you want to try something really productive, drive south to zone 6, find an area taken over by invasives like Ailanthus or Albizia, plant it there and hope it dominates.

    Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:499513}}

  • allen456
    8 years ago

    Seems as though two different trees are being discussed in this thread, Tulip Poplar and Saucer Magnolia.

  • leftwood
    8 years ago

    >>>Seems as though two different trees are being discussed in this thread, Tulip Poplar and Saucer Magnolia.

    That would explain Rhizo's comment, which was the reason for mine - to prove that tulip trees are not early bloomers.

  • whaas_5a
    8 years ago

    Yes we all know Tulip trees are in zone 4 but its going to be difficult to seek someone on here with the knowledge to confirm a southern (compared to your location) seed source is succesfully growing in zone 4.

    This is still my opinion.

    If you're borderline zone 4a and planting in an open area, hell no. Its too big and fast growing of a tree knowing that its potentially a zone 6 or 7 seed source.

    If you're at the high end of zone 4b with a bit of a microclimate I'd be more inclined to take the risk of an unknown seed source.

  • jfacendola
    8 years ago

    I transplanted a small seedling grown from the native tulip trees in my Z8 yard in Southern NC, to my parents z5 in MA. It has not had any problems over the last 4 winters since transplant, and it has been growing like a weed 650 miles north of the original seed source with 0 protection or effort put into it.

  • bengz6westmd
    8 years ago

    Surprising that tuliptree is so cold hardy. But magnolias generally as a group are more cold-hardy than we think. And tuliptree blooms on new wood, so isn't an "early" bloomer.

    That said, catalpa isn't an "early" bloomer either. But in my frost hollow, new catalpa sprouts are often fried by late frosts. It resprouts from secondary buds, but it seems those sprouts don't have embedded flower-buds, and mine will fail to or barely bloom, while others nearby out/above the frost hollow bloom normally.

  • Jimbonsai
    8 years ago

    There is a tulip tree in Dundalk Ontario . Its gets to -35c there (Usda zone 4a) . They are hardier trees than you would think .

    Here is a link that might be useful: Google Street View

  • whaas_5a
    8 years ago

    How many Dundalks are in ON?

    Thats 5b, maybe 5a.

  • Jimbonsai
    8 years ago

    There is only one Dundalk in Ontario . -35c is Usda zone 3b

  • arktrees
    8 years ago

    beng,
    Just a side note FYI. Happen to see an article on DNA sequencing analysis of Tulip Tree and Magnolia's a couple months ago. Turns out from the genetic sequence, that they ARE NOT closely related at all. A case where visual structures indicated one thing (i.e. convergent evolution), while genetics show they diverged far in the past (see link below). Edit: This is not the article I read, but supports the other article that I read preiviously.

    Arktrees

    Here is a link that might be useful: Tulip Tree

    This post was edited by arktrees on Mon, Dec 16, 13 at 9:02

  • whaas_5a
    8 years ago

    Sorry Jim, a possible record low (-31 F) doesn't translate into a zone.

    I'm very familar with Toronto and its burbs. Its about 1.5 hours northwest of Toronto, which is 6a. Dundalk is 5a borderline 5b.

    I'm only pushing as I don't want folks thinking these trees are growing nicely in zone 3b.

    Am I missing something?

    Here is a link that might be useful: Ontario Hardiness Map

  • Jimbonsai
    8 years ago

    Dundalk is nowhere near a 5b climate , you have to travel west or north or east or south to find it . Dundalk is 1736 feet above sea level (top of the Dundalk Highlands), as opposed to Toronto ,which is 567 feet above sea level. That's what you are missing . I dont think you are very familiar with Toronto suburbs - as Dundalk is too far out in the boonies to be considered a suburb . Be aware that the all time record low in Dundalk is -42c.... far beyond a 5b low temp. Btw I grew a Tulip Tree in North Bay, Ontario when I lived there its a solid zone 3b Usda ( and it still there 22 years later !)

  • whaas_5a
    8 years ago

    All good, bottomline Dundalk is zone 5a.

    You're not going to see a drop from 6a to 3a traveling 1.5 hours north to a higher elevation.

    I could take my example where I'm at 1200 and 45min south of me is 500. The difference is 5a vs 5b.

    You're going to get colder temps in valleys due to cold air settling.

    North Bay, now thats 3b, potentially 4a now. Do you recall where you got the plant? I'm sure the plant was exposed to some extreme 3b temps during that time.

  • Jimbonsai
    8 years ago

    The 1967 plant hardiness zone maps from Agriculture Canada place Dundalk in zone 4b. The 2000 version places Dundalk in 4b. This is Canadian zone 4b which differs from Usda zone 4b (they have different standards ) .This link is attached.
    Be aware that a zone 6 in Canada is around a zone 5 Usda . North Bay is in zone 4a and has a record low of -40C/F . Its not a lot colder that Dundalk . The Tulip tree came from Golden Bough tree farm in Marlbank, Ontario (Zone 5a Cdn) .It was slow to establish (tip dieback and slow growth) but now is around 30+ feet tall and has flowered . Since its planted in a backyard its not visible on Google Earth. I also grew Bamboos, Gingko, Peaches, Katsura and evergreen rhodies there that thrived in that climate.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Plant Hardiness Zones of Canada

  • whaas_5a
    8 years ago

    Good to know, the link I provided had this info sourced to the maps. Its only taking min average temps in consideration, so I stand corrected that Dundalk is considered 5a from a USDA perspective only.

    Hardiness Zones, Gardening Zones, Growing Zones and Plant Zones refer to defined geographic regions that can support specific plants, flowers and trees. The zones define a minimum range of temperatures that a plant or tree can survive safely in that zone. The most commonly used Hardiness Zones were defined by the USDA. This map applies the USDA hardiness zone classifications to zones in Canada derived from historical climate records available from the National Climate Data Archive.

  • bengz6westmd
    8 years ago

    Posted by arktrees 6b NW Arkansas (My Page) on
    Mon, Dec 16, 13 at 8:59

    Thanks -- interesting link about tuliptree.

  • mntreegrower
    4 years ago

    I was a little surprised to see tulip trees offered in Minneapolis (or maybe it was Shakopee or Apple Valley) this spring during a tree sale promotion to encourage residents to plant more trees in their yards. Of course, if they were offering tulip trees, then they must have been testing it around the city for some time now you would think.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    4 years ago

    HU, thanks forbthe update.

  • L Clark (zone 4 WY)
    4 years ago

    Interesting thread. I may try one of these. I am experimenting with American sycamore right now

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    I’ve reread the whole thread and it’s still not clear to me whether people are discussing Magnolias or Liriodendrons. Could I put in a plea that posters give a botanical name to the plant they’re talking about?

  • bengz6westmd
    4 years ago

    Put tuliptree in a search engine & you'll find out in an instant.

  • dbarron
    4 years ago

    To me, the only confusing info is the one or two people that referred to magnolia stellata versus (the only true tuliptree in the states) lireodendrom tulipifera.

    They were confused :)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Never stellata but a number of other species of magnolia are commonly referred to as tulip trees or at the very least, tulip magnolias - M. liliiflora and hybrids and x soulangeana. In fact, several have 'tulip' as part of their cultivar names. And comments about damage from late spring freezes is much more applicable to early blooming magnolias than it is to Liriodendron. So yes, it is confusing if the plant in question is not referred to by the correct botanical name! That is the only way everyone really knows what plant is being discussed.

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    4 years ago

    That’s really not a very helpful answer, beng12. I am not stupid and I am not too lazy to use a search engine. I am genuinely interested to know which plants are being talked about. To me a tulip tree is a Liriodendron but I’ve seen those called Tulip Poplar rather than Tulip Tree by US posters. On the other hand I’ve seen Magnolias referred to as Tulip Trees by US posters. So the name tulip tree is used for two entirely different genera by different people in different places and if you google that name you see pictures of both. So no, I will not find out ‘in an instant’ what someone else is referring to.

    Why the resistance to just giving the botanical name so readers can follow the discussion wherever they are in the world?


    This one?.. or This one ???

  • maackia
    4 years ago

    It’s the World Wide web. To me it’s a no brainer to use botanical names as the primary reference. Common names are fine once the botanical name has been established, but why not try to eliminate confusion whenever possible?

    I brought back a small Liriodendron seedling from Washington’s Mount Vernon, but it didn’t survive its first year. Hu, can you share a little about the site your Tulip Tree is growing?

  • whaas_5a
    4 years ago

    I was talking to the owner at Possibility Place Nursery and he said he wouldn't recommend growing them in zone 5. Per his note below he gets constant dieback in the fields. He is in a solid zone 5B.


    https://www.possibilityplace.com/our-plants/liriodendron-tulipifera


    I'm sure they are around here but the largest specimen I've come across is the one I planted in a very protected northeast cove. Its roughly 30' tall.


    I wonder if these instances of them in zone 4 are an anomaly?


  • maackia
    4 years ago

    Does anyone know of a z4 Tulip Poplar flowering? There’s not much of a prize to grow this tree without seeing the flowers.

  • Huggorm
    4 years ago

    The leaves are also very nice and unique

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    4 years ago

    Ok, now I know it’s definitely Liriodendron under discussion I can read with understanding and comment meaningfully. The specimens I see around here are all so tall that the flowers, which are greenish yellow, are hard to see amongst the foliage way above one’s head. I’m sure the average passer-by doesn’t even know they’re there. But I’ll bet they notice the weird clipped off leaf shape and the wonderful colour in Autumn. There’s one in the next street to mine which is well over two hundred years old. It’s a wonderful tree.

  • maackia
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    They had to bring in a 150' aerial lift to harvest seeds from the tree at Mount Vernon. It would be hard to imagine this tree growing anywhere near what it reaches in the eastern US...or England.

    I just realized my question about flowers in z4 was answered early in this thread by Leftwood, who lives a short distance straight west of Minneapolis. I was at his place about 12 years ago, but I don't remember seeing this tree. In any case, his tree has grown nicely and has flowered in a true z4 climate. I may have to give this one another try.

  • whaas_5a
    4 years ago

    Fall color is typically excellent as well

  • maackia
    4 years ago

    There’s a nursery (Bobolink) a short drive from me that had larger container grown Tulip Trees that looked excellent when I was there in middle of summer. Would a wholesaler typically know the provenance of the trees they’re selling? I think they were from Carlton, but I’m not 100% sure of that. I doubt a large wholesaler would give me the time of day in trying to track this info down.

    Here’s a wholesale growers take on this tree.

  • whaas_5a
    4 years ago

    There is the name confusion!


    Interesting the guy in Oregon says the species is hardy to zone 4 and a grower in Illinois says they are hardy to zone 5 and have dieback in zone 5 without protection. Those would be younger trees though.


    Thats a tough call to grow such a large aggressive growing tree in zone 4. It literally does grow as past as a poplar. The one I have now is growing incredibly fast.

  • maackia
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    These trees get amazingly big; it's the largest deciduous tree in the U.S.

    I've got openings in the woods surrounding the yard created by oak wilt where I'd like to try this tree (and others). How sensitive are these trees to dry soil? I could get water to them for the first few years while they settle in, but it's not something I'd want to do long term. Are they culturally comparable to Magnolia tripetala?

    BTW, is it poor etiquette to go off topic on a threat that originated in 2013?

  • Curtis Griffy
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Hastings, MN. Our Tulip tree is not doing very good after this years winter. I am thinking our -30 days really hurt it. It's leafing out slow and not all branches yet. I got mail order and it stands about 25' tall. Hope it does wake up.

  • Smivies (Ontario - 5b)
    3 years ago

    My two cents on a 6 year old thread...


    Northern seed source for Tulip Tree is critical if you want a healthy vigorous tree in zone 5 or colder. After two conversations I had with landscape professionals (urban forester & retail nursery owner/landscaper) in southern Ontario, they shared that a few wholesalers are bringing up B&B Tulip Trees from growers in North Carolina (cheaper than locally grown).


    They discovered this after investigating why their Tulip Trees planted in the last ~5-7 years were not as robust (low vigor, winterkill, sudden death) relative to the native wild Tulip Trees. Performance of the southern trees was not so bad that the wholesalers would stop importing but poor enough that the perfectly hardy Tulip Tree is getting a reputation as 'borderline'.

  • Bryant Olson
    3 years ago

    @Curtis Griffy How did it fare? I'd like to plant one next spring but it seems like it may be hit or miss up here.

  • JO Jose
    2 years ago

    I live close to green bay wi and found one local nursery, ivy trails, however their trees are sourced from Oregon. Wish there was a true Midwestern z4 native source for these trees. Local nursery indicated mixed customer results.