I've read somewhere that the holly seeds may need 2 years in the ground before germination. Or 2 years in a pot or where you choose to sow. I was going to try the seed route for them also.Don't know this for sure but read it somewhere.I'm just starting with seeds too, so you know more than I do about the rest. poaky

Sulfuric acid can be purchased at any automotive store or battery store. Unless you are processing a lot of seeds, I'd recommend just sticking to scarification. That's much easier, IMO, by the time you think about the difficulties of dealing with acid.

I wouldn't recommend denatured alcohol. I have no experience with trying to use it for seeds, but I doubt that it would be safe, especially because ingredients vary from one type to another.

If you haven't already, you might consider reviewing some of the many references that deal with seed pretreatment and give specifics for different types of seeds. Do be aware that different types of seeds have different types of dormancies and require different treatments. There are lots of books about plant germination, as well as a few good web references. Here are links to a few*.

Backyard Gardener Seed Germination Database
www.backyardgardener.com/tm.html

Ontario Rock Garden & Hardy Plant Society Seed Germination Guide
www.onrockgarden.com/guide/seedguide.htm

Tom Clothier's Germination Database
tomclothier.hort.net/

B&T World Seeds Database
b-and-t-world-seeds.com/

* I didn't review these specifically for this post, but I'm sure you can find a lot of information in at least some (if not all) of them.

Another less dangerous method: line a jar or can with 150 grit sandpaper, grit side to the interior. Place the seeds inside and shake. Check with a magnifier to see that the endocarp layer has been partially worn away.

Using gibrellic acid (GA) in powder form is another possibility. Should be lots of online info about this technique.

sulfuric acid cleans cement .. its at most hardware stores ... and it is extremely dangerous stuff ....

the one time i needed to scarify .. i found a simple old fashioned emery board worked just right for the 50 or seed i needed to do ...

its not really all that hard or complicated ... its just a pain in the seating area of human anatomy .... and personally the acid thing would be way over the top unless you had thousands/millions of seeds to do ...

ken

The acid used for cleaning mortar off masonry is so-called muriatic acid which is actually hydrochloric acid. Sulphuric acid, as Brandon7 noted, is battery acid. Sulphuric acid is a highly corrosive chemical which can react violently when it comes in contact with many substances and is prone to splashing when you try to dilute it. It's best avoided when there are safer, easier methods such as abrasion.

toooo mmmmuuuccchhh coooffffeee ... lol

maine is right ... as was brandon.. [better get that in there.. or he will flame me.. lol]

though i still bet you could find it at the hardware ... should you wish to take the risks ...

lol

ken

Boiling water also works for a lot of hard cased seeds - just put them in a dish, pour over some boiling water and let them soak overnight. Lots safer than using an acid and can be more efficient than just abrasion if the seeds are tiny.

And I would recommend following up on Brandon's suggested readings - scarification requirements will vary widely depending on the species, as will times and conditions for best germination.

Well, I learned something too, Holly is 18 1/2 mos not 2 years.

Well, scarification by abrasion it is then. I re-checked the book and sure enough it notes soaking for one hour in sulfuric acid. Not something I had really been looking forward to which is why I asked. I guess I will look into the can lined with sandpaper as I have several species with 50-200 seeds each. I knew I was starting past the emory board point.

I shall reference the databases, see if there is anything I wasn't obviously aware of. I shall make sure all soaks are started with actually boiling water and I will have to set the hollies and such aside for second year germination. I had read that many maples would progressively sprout year after year but I am working out of trays, not beds. I took what I got which was decent and went on. I will try abrasion this year and see if I get better results. Save the chemicals for future resort.

There are several different reasons why seeds need scarification or other treatment. One is an extremely hard seed coat which prevents water from entering. Those are the types - redbud is a good example - which require that the seed coat be abraded or eaten away by acid. Maples (most) produce a lot of seed, but often only a small percentage is viable and if the seed is allowed to dry out it enters a deeper dormancy that requires much more time or manipulation of temperature to overcome. Scarification would not help with these types.

My point is you really need to research the best technique for each species.

In addition to the resources listed by brandon7,I don't know if it's available on line, but Norman Deno did a great deal of work on seed germination techniques. He was primarily intested in rock garden plants, but included many others. Try the North American Rock Garden Society website (NARGS.org). Michael Dirr's book, Manual of Woody Landscape Plants contains a lot of propagation information, not all by seed, but noted where practical.

I'm not a chemist, and don't play one on TV(though I did take enough chemistry courses in college to qualify as having a 'minor' in chemistry).

Denatured alcohol generally contains 10% methanol. Methanol is poisonous to mammals, but I see no reason, from a chemical or physiologic standpoint that a 90%ethanol/10%methanol mix would have any adverse effects on seeds that might benefit from an alcohol treatment to enhance germination; I presume that the effect is due to the solvent properties affecting some of the resins on the outer surface of the cone/seed, allowing penetration of water to stimulate 'revival' of the dormant embryo. Plants don't utilize alcohols as an energy source, and don't have alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme systems; hence the utilization of an alcohol in this instance is strictly (I presume) for its solvent properties.
For that matter, I suspect that 70% isopropyl(rubbing) alcohol, readily available at any grocery/megastore with a 'health' section, would probably suffice.

I'd have to get really tired of manually scarifying seeds before I'd risk fooling around with concentrated sulfuric acid. The sandpaper in a can/jar looks good to me.

So the denatured alcohol would be a good soak for the bald cypress then? They are the only one's I am worried about since I don't think abrasion will be helpful. I read the suggestion that the cheap liquor works but would like to avoid it if possible. I believe the denatured is much cheaper too.

Wikipedia says...

Because of the diversity of industrial uses for denatured alcohol, hundreds of additives and denaturing methods are used.....typical additives include isopropyl alcohol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, and denatonium.

Do you know what is in the stuff you plan on using? If you're not sure or are not sure whether the ingredients are appropriate, you might want to avoid that potential for problems.

I never experienced any difficulty germinating baldcypress seeds, just with cold, moist stratification over winter - and even had a couple of plastic bags of BC needles/cones that I picked up curbside one year that had thousands of germinating seedlings the next spring when I opened the bag to spread the material as mulch.

Denatonium is merely Bitrex, a bittering agent, but all the other denaturants Mr.B from TN listed are merely other organic solvents, and if the aim is to cut through the resins to allow water penetration, they will likely accomplish that with no more damage to the embryos than a soak in pure ethanol.

Easy method for scarification - use a vice grip to hold the seed and rub it on a file or a piece of hard grit sandpaper. I've used this for manzanita seed, but supposedly fire works for manzanita seed,as well, as the seed is genus is fire adapted. Either way, sulfuric acid seems like a real pain in the neck. The "danger" part of it is not the hassle to me, it's knowing how to handle and mix the stuff and knowing how long is long enough of a soak - it seems like it would take a lot of skill and experience to tell when the acid bath has sufficiently eaten away enough of the seed coat.

By the way, you are aware that Bald Cypress does NOT need scarification treatment at all, right? If you're having trouble with it either the seed dried out and died or it isn't good seed. Cut it open with a knife ( the "cut test" ) to find out - if it's empty of contains a shrivelled embryo, as opposed to a plump, full, white one, it's no good.

Seeds like Albizia or Locust, I'd just cut little corner with sharp scissors and sterilize. But if I have thousand seeds... then sulfuric acid. Too dangerous to keep such stuff at home.