Charlotte Armstrong? I see her listed as a parent of so many fine HTs.

Tiffany

Charlotte Armstrong is very pretty. She gave great fragrance to her family even though she has faint scent herself. The roses related to Charlotte A. are some of my favorites. Chrysler Imperial is a wonderful rose. Disneyland used to have a big row of Chrysler Imperial standards over by the castle and I would sit on the brick planter wall and eat my lunch there just to sit with them. They were so elegant.

I was at the Huntington yesterday and saw many old HTs and floribundas flowering. Some of the bright colors are not what would fit in my garden but I noticed them right away as I walked around. The oldest one I grow is La France ( is this still in the HT class?) That rose flowers consistently through the year and has great fragrance.

Chicago Peace and Medallion would be in my must have group of HTs for color and shape.

Yeah, I think La France is 'officially' the first HT. I had it & Medallion & Tiffany before the great rose wipeout. Thought all were very pretty.

Radiance, Chrysler Imperial & Peace appeal to me because they are such important parents. Same reason I'm ogling Charlotte Armstrong (though I wish she were fragrant), Ophelia & the others.

Plus, I hate to see fine old roses go out of commerce. Took me a long time to get a healthy Talisman. I love Curly Pink (a Crimson Glory child) & never would have tried Pink Chiffon (1956 fl) if not for the luscious description in Vintage--& it was one of this year's delights. Thank you for the descriptions.

I don't know how anyone could think this wasn't worth it.

('La France,' in mid-October, in the Sacramento City Cemetery)

Jeri

Don't spray and increase your heat a bit, Jeri. The rust on La France will convince you it isn't worth it in those conditions. Been there, done it, shovel pruned. There ARE older moderns which are well worth growing. I still have a few which I've made room for in my limited space. As with any plant, you just have to select the right one for where you live so it'll be happy to be with you. Kim

ooo, that's pretty. I don't recall my La France being so full of petals. But it did smell good.

I still grow Peace, Chicago Peace and Christian Dior. Since I've got an area that gets afternoon shade, I'm going to try Crimson Glory again. It didn't like my hot Florida garden.

Some of my favorites of the older hybrid teas that I grow are Mme Jules Bouche (very fragrant and really blooms a lot), Radiance, Dr. Debat, Mrs. Oakley Fisher, and Lemon Spice (also really fragrant and blooms a lot).

I dunno, Kim -- I'd give her a try, if I had a spot. Remember -- I'm willing to pull the plug on a poor choice.

Jeri

Bluegirl: Pink Chiffon has long been a favorite of mine. It is I think though a Floribunda. It has been a resident of the Tulsa Rose Garden since I've been visiting there from the mid 80's to present. Many many roses have come and gone since then, but their hedge of Pink Chiffon still manages to survive. From all these years of observations I can say that it will blackspot so spraying will be needed, but on the bright side it does seem to do quite well in part shade. Treated with love and care it is a really nice addition to any garden. Very feminine and soft in color....Maryl

Traditionally, you haven't had the heat required for rust to be as great a problem, so it might work for you. Neither La France, climbing La France nor "Sydney Atholl Ward" worked for me. I collected SAW from the cemetery on that Gold Country rose rustle all those years ago and I nursed that dawg for years until I gave up on the group. As you and Clay stated at the Huntington Symposium years ago, disease CAN be eradicated from your garden...with a SHOVEL. Kim

I really loved 'Charlotte Armstrong'. Very nice rose.

hoov, if you really liked Charlotte and if you like stripes, be sure to find Banner. It's the striped sport of Stockton Beauty, the darker sport of Charlotte. Same everything only with dramatic stripes and splashes. It reminded me of an enormously flowered striped camellia. It's a gorgeous thing! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Banner

Charlotte is a good one. So is my Peace. But my favorite golden oldie is Garden Party.

{{gwi:345741}}

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the single HT's, such as Dainty Bess, Capt Thomas or Mrs. Oakley Fisher. I have Dainty Bess & it is one of my favorites, good winter hardiness, nice fragrance, & neat stamen-flower color contrast An artist friend frequently stops to see this rose because she describes it as "a cloud of pink butterflies flittering over the bush" when its in bloom.

bluegirl.

I grew 'Mme. Butterfly,' sport of 'Ophelia.' It froze out in a zone 7 winter, and patricia43 reported the same in North Alabama. It was not vigorous by modern standards, even though grafted. However, the flower was superbly refined, with thick satiny petals, red stamens, and a complex perfume. Perfection!

IMO, 'Ophelia' set the pattern for modern HTs with compact upright growth, long stems, firm necks, and high-centered flowers with not a lot of petals.

I agree that 'Garden Party' is a fine HT, notably winter hardy for a white. Flowers are huge in cool weather, smaller but plentiful in hot weather.

Diane,
Thank you for the pic of Dainty Bess. I planted a band of her this summer. Hope she grows half as well as yours. Mine is planted in partial shade...7' from a maple tree. Should I move her?
Thanks
Jeannie
Merry Christmas

I had Garden Party here for years, until a falling pecan-tree branch wiped it out. I have 2 Tiffany and a Sweet Surrender that are over 25 years old, on Fort., and no problem w/chili-thrips this past summer, but they killed my 3 Chrysler Imps. as well as several other oldies. sally

I've loved that flat topped, old-fashioned looking, wonderfully fragrant flower on Sweet Surrender since it was introduced. I don't like the chronically weak peduncle, forcing the flowers to droop nor the inability to find a plant not severely infected with "you know what". If you want the fragrance, color and large flower in these parts without the associated downsides, Memorial Day is a suitable replacement.

Frances Ashton, Ellen Wilmott and Cecil are my favorites in the single class. Heck, that's probably not a fair statement as I love Irish Elegance, Fireflame and Mrs. Oakley as well, but Cecil is the one single HT I've made room for in this smaller garden. As I wrote of it over fifteen years ago, it's still the most satisfying yellow modern rose I've grown. I'm eager to see the seedlings of Cal Poly X Cecil flower this spring! I wish the photos of Cecil on HMF were better. I'll have to watch mine to see if I can provide one. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Cecil

I haven't grown the "classic" hybrid teas but have great interest in the very early ones. I have La France and like it so well that I now also have a new band of it. I also just acquired Lady Alice Stanley and so can't comment about her, but really like Souvenir de President Carnot who has the firm petals that can stand up to my heat. The La France sport, Duchess of Albany, is also just a baby and I haven't seen a single bloom since I've snipped off all the buds to encourage it to grow. Leonie's Appoline is also still small and some of her blooms have balled, but they're gorgeous when they behave.

The early hybrid teas on their own roots take some coddling, which most of my roses don't get, but having the beautiful blooms and a part of rose history makes it worthwhile for me.

Ingrid

What about Madame Caroline Testout?

Bred in the 1890s was supposedly the "Peace" of its time. It's the rose the city of portland planted 10,000 bushes of before WWI and that David Austin used extensively in his early breeding program.

I don't have any experience with it, but happened to read about it recently and was tempted.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link about Mme. Caroline Testout

Hi jeannie2009,
I'm leery of partial shade for roses and we have hot, sunny summers, too. I have several roses in too much shade (because trees grew so much), and they don't bloom like they would in a sunnier location. I have also read that maple trees aren't very good neighbors for roses, though I don't have any experience with that particular tree. My Dainty Bess has an eastern exposure and grows in front of the side of the house where it is protected and receives reflected light. She loves it and is quite large, about seven feet. She blooms all summer and is such a trouper.
To answer your question about moving your DB--if it were my rose, I would probably move her--just my opinion.
Merry Christmas to all,
Diane

Wow Kim, 'Banner' quite gorgeous. :)

Uh.....yum. Only 3 months before I can get out there. :C

No doubt 'La France' shall forevermore be cited as the "Eve" of all Hybrid Teas.

Nevertheless, after growing 'La France' and one of its two sports a number of years now, I've come to agree with Brent Dickerson: 'La France' is a Bourbon.

Thanks Diane,
I kind of knew that I needed to dig another hole this year.

Actually will wait till spring. We are having a mild winter but that could change in a heartbeat. Where she is planted there is some winter protection. Dang no digging in monsoon season.
Merry Christmas all.
Jeannie

I will definitely second Madame Caroline Testout.

Jackie

'Mme. Caroline Testout' is one of the sturdiest, healthiest and most reliable roses of its generation, enjoying far better health and vigor than its "successor", 'Peace' that came 55 years later. Thousands of plants of it were planted in Portland 100+ years ago. From Wikipedia:

"Portland has been known as the "City of Roses", or "Rose City", since 1888, after Madame Caroline Testout, a large pink variety of hybrid tea rose bred in France, was introduced to the city. Thousands of rose bushes were planted, eventually lining 20 miles (32 km) of Portland's streets in preparation for the Lewis and Clark Centennial Exposition in 1905."

There isn't a community within 100 miles of PDX that doesn't have at least a few specimens of 'Mme. C' evident in its citizens gardens, no doubt propagated from the original plantings in PDX. When I moved onto the farm I currently live on, there was a plant of it next to one of the barns as well! The plant had obviously been there for decades and was thriving in spite of having received no care whatsoever, not even watering during the rainless 1/4 of the year. This is a sturdy survivor of a rose, and is very handsome in every detail. I've grown dozens of post-WW2 roses, and very, very few still exist in my collection, having been removed because of disease issues, lack of winter hardiness, unreliable performance, or (most often) all of the above. 'Mme. Caroline Testout' is, in my opinion, far superior to most of its kin.

PS: I would add 'Tiffany' to a short list of superior HTs to consider for the modern no-spray garden. This post-war period hybrid is remarkably sturdy, disease free and genuinely beautiful. It doesn't hurt that it also possesses one of the most intense perfumes of its class.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wikipedia article

This post was edited by trospero on Sun, Dec 23, 12 at 10:16

Thnak you subk3 for the link to Mme Caroline Testout. After reading about MCT I will get one for my garden this coming year. I also enjoyed reading about the other roses listed there.
jack
Merry Christmas all.

Thanks for all of the great comments & photos. Mme. Caroline is another I've been admiring--I love the fat big blooms of the pictures so it's nice to know she's a good grower, too.

I routinely see body bags of many worthy oldies & find them listed in nursery catalogs (Peace, some of its sports, Tiffany, Medallion, Garden Party, Chrysler, etc.) but not so many of the pre-war HTs like Ophelia, Mme Caroline, Mme Jules, etc.. La France seems pretty available, too.

I would sure hate to see the other wonderful old roses disappear from commerce, though, & I sure appreciate the nurseries that continue to offer them. It's good to learn that they can do well--I'd like to try some.

You guys are killing me! I love Dainty Bess and Mme Caroline Testout

Does anyone know if they would do good here? SoCal? My relatives mostly live in Portland and my aunt would always want to show me all the roses when I would visit. I would love to have a Mme Caroline in honor of my Auntie Caroline

Both have to be watched for mildew where that's an issue. They're about as susceptible to it as September Morn is. That's another gorgeous, intensely fragrant, classic old HT. Kim

Oh my Kim, there is another one for my list!

I really enjoyed Dame Edith Helen. She can be "miffy" but when she's good, she's very, very good. At one time, she was such a show darling, there were actually classes strictly for HER in Australian rose shows. That should say something! Eternal Youth...luminous, marvelously fragrant, on a husky, vigorous plant. Margaret Anne Baxter, one of the strongest scented white HTs I've grown. She was beautiful when paired with Mary Margaret McBride, with her huge, highly scented, pink flowers.

Peachblow was a vigorous plant which flowered quite well. It also had large, blowsy, intensely fragrant flowers. It arose from the same breeder as Autumn (another favorite) and is a seedling of Mme. Butterfly. I grew everything I could find related to Ophelia and Columbia. Still have Cl. Columbia as a friend had it and wanted to find a new home for it. Pink Dawn also has very large, very fragrant, feminine pink flowers. Polly has marvelous flowers, but on a plant which is significantly easier to maintain budded. You can read my comments about her on HMF. Sierra Glow really does glow. I can see much of both Crimson Glory and Soeur Therese in her.

I saw an interesting old HT offered by Rogue Valley Roses while I was putting together my spring order and thought I'd give it a try. There's not much about it on HelpMeFind, which, of course, made it seem even more interesting. Does anyone know anything about 'Stadtrat Glaser' by Hermann Kiese from 1910?

At RVR:
https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/stadtrat-glaser

At Vintage:
https://www.vintagegardens.com/roses.aspx?cat_id=21

at HelpMeFind:
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.26065

:-)

~Christopher

I have very few HTs but would try more of the oldies if I could get them. I'm a big fan of 'Mme. Jules Bouche', a strongly Tea-leaning HT, beautiful blooms, strong plant, fragrant, easy to grow from cuttings, which is how I got mine. A couple that haven't been mentioned yet that I've heard good things about are 'Sutter's Gold' and 'Oklahoma'. I have the climbing form of 'Mme. Caroline Testout' and it looks promisingly tough and floriferous. And 'Barcelona'/'Francis Dubreuil' is very sturdy, very dark, and very fragrant. I just moved my plant into what I hope will be a more favorable position and am looking forward to great things from it.

For roses of any class to perform well in a hot dry climate, they need to have thick petal substance and dense foliage.

My favorite rose always changes, depending on what part of the garden I am working in on a given day. This year, when I finally gave Mrs J's HTs a wider bed and better soil, Tournament of Roses just took off and exploded with growth and blooms. The unidentified HT growing next to it has thinner petal substance than the blooms on TOR and fried within a day, while TOR's blooms lasted for several days in intense heat.

Smiles,
Lyn