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Dawn Redwood vs Bald Cypress

NorthEast Ohio, Zone 5b

I've been considering planting Dawn Redwood (Metasequoia glyptostroboides) or Bald Cypress (Taxodium distichum), eventually decided to grow a few of each but now wonder (for my purposes and situation) if that's necessary.

From what I understand Dawn redwood will grow faster and get larger than Bald Cypress (which is desirable).

I like them both but must admit I get them confused so if I like one more than the other, right now, I'm not sure which it is.

* Can Dawn Redwood handle as much moisture as Bald Cypress?

(I do like the Cypress knees but they're not a dealbreaker)

* Is one more juglone tolerant than the other?

* Does Bald Cypress offer and other pros/benefits/qualities over Dawn Redwood?

Thanks

Comments (63)

  • mrgpag SW OH Z5/6
    12 years ago

    Cox Arboretum just south of Dayton along I-75 has several DW and lots of BC. Here's a couple shots of a DR that was planted back in the early 70s. In the first image, the yellow flowering tree is a cornus officinalis blooming in mid-March
    Marshall

    {{gwi:441505}}

    {{gwi:441508}}

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    12 years ago

    Noki,

    You should visit river walk in San Antonio, Texas. Huge native bald cypress trees (200-300 years old) growing in alkaline soil.

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  • whaas_5a
    12 years ago

    Great topic and all, but how does why suddenly REPLY to a topic that is well over a year old?

  • wisconsitom
    12 years ago

    I don't know, but that Cox DR is a fine looking tree. The Cornelian cherry ain't bad neither.

    +oM

  • viburnumvalley
    12 years ago

    Nice pictures, Marshall.

    Must...come...visit...

  • nick_b79
    12 years ago

    The Minnesota Landscape Arboretum has Bald Cypress growing successfully up here in a solid zone 4, so that should tell you how hardy they are. However, I have been told by several different MN gardeners that there used to be several mature Dawn Redwoods growing at the MN State Fairgrounds until the 1980's when they were cut down to expand a parking lot.

  • poaky1
    12 years ago

    I may try BC again after reading this thread, I thought mine had winterkilled, and it was from a local nursery, used to our tempt. There is a mature BL Wal. near where I planted it. I never put 2 and 2 together because this mature BL Wal is in the neighbors yard a long distance from the planting site. I have a D. R by the way that is doing great, not near the BL Wal by the way. It may not be characteristic of it's kind, but the branch structure is horrible, crossing branches and deserves to be in a Harry Potter movie when leafless. I tried correcting it when it was not as tall, and it regrew back the crossing branches and some more to boot even after using "sucker stopper" spray on close buds. Nice trunk though, and beautiful in leaf, anyways I will retry the B.C elsewhere, glad I found this thread and hopefully my blabbing about my D.R helps someone now or in the future.

  • hogmanay
    12 years ago

    My two favorite trees! (Old thread, but worth talking about these trees huh?)

    I planted several of both (bare root babies) 3 years ago.

    Since I'm in the middle south, I can't comment on cold tolerance. The coldest it has been here since I moved here was 9 F. :-) That's rare. Historical record -26 from the 1960s and I can assure you there are bald cypress (and probably DR somewhere) that lived through that here.

    Anyway.

    - One of my BCs is outgrowing all but one DR.
    - Baby DRs don't like to be in the wind, the ones out front are half as tall as the ones in the back that are somewhat protected from winds (not just thunderstorm wind bursts but slow steady winds).
    - I have DRs and BCs in places where the soil is almost always wet. The BCs love it for sure.

    - We have Japanese Beetles (invasive bug) and they will hit both but do more eating on the DRs it seems.

    - In terms of wind firmness at maturity, BCs probably take the cake, although I asume DRs do fine, if that is a concern.

    In my book, no tree is more awesome than a mature bald cypress -- on dry land or in a swamp, in a yard or by the river -- and both have a great primevil / primordial vibe.

  • subtropix
    12 years ago

    I just ordered 4 more BC's myself. Adjacent, public properties are quite water laden. I wonder how much longer the trees there now (not BC's) can handle being under water for at least part of the year, and I agree, Bald Cypress swamps are very primordial--and awesome! Happy New Year!

  • mrgpag SW OH Z5/6
    12 years ago

    Here's three different groups of BC at Cox Arboretum. Not as dramatic as the grove at Dawes or the monsters at Spring Grove, but nice trees nonetheless

    Marshall

    planted in 1994
    {{gwi:441511}}

    Planted in 1987
    {{gwi:441513}}

    and planted in 1971
    {{gwi:441515}}

  • Christopher (Dallas Garden) Miller
    12 years ago

    I'm trying to decide between the two and live in Dallas, Texas. Near White Rock Lake my old neighbor had a huge DR but mostly BC's are planted here. Which is most tolerant of shade? I get sun until about 3:30 and it's on a creek edge.

  • spruceman
    12 years ago

    Folks:

    Well, I am late to this topic. One of my very favorite trees is the baldcypress--it simply has no weaknesses--it has a beautiful shape, is incredibly strong in storms, tolerates all kinds of conditions, has nice fall color, will grow anywhere, etc. etc.

    I love the dawn redwood also, but not nearly so much. And where I live, in a dry, drought prone Z6 (near Winchester, VA), my dawn redwoods have struggled, and grow very, very slowly. The won't grow quite as well on wet sites as baldcypress, but they don't like the generally dry summers here either. And I am not a big fan of the "ropy" way the trunk grows around the collars of the lower branches. The baldcypress had a much nicer trunk form.

    As for the knees--I have never seen any around here where they are growing in well-drained deep soils.

    If anyone is around the D.C. area, here is where you can go to see good examples of these trees: at the National Arboretum there is a really nice little grove of tall dawn redwoods near the Gotelli collection of conifers. These trees are about 80 to 90 feet tall in narrow spire-like form, and still growing well.

    As for the bald cypress, there are fine specimens growing in the park area just south of the Ellipse, just north of constitution avenue. This is generally across from the Washington Monument. The largest of these trees might be about 4 feet in diameter, but I am guessing. They are simply absolutely gorgeous trees.

    Near where I am living now in VA, the little municipal park in Berryville, has a total knockout gorgeous baldcypress. You can sit under this tree and believe for all you are worth that this is the most beautiful tree in the whole wide world.

    --Spruce

  • j0nd03
    12 years ago

    I am growing both DR and BC as well as 'Ogon'. If they do well, I might add a few more cultivars like 'Shawnee Brave' and possibly a variegated DR. Any you like in particular, Spruce? And how bout some pics of this King of all Bald Cypress? ;)

    John

  • spruceman
    12 years ago

    John:

    Sorry I don't have any pictures of baldcypress trees--I should have. Next time I go to Berryville (and D.C.) I will take my camera. Of course there are much larger ones--when I was in Florida, many, many years ago (more than 50), I saw one absolutely humongous baldcypress tree. I can't now remember where, but it was a famous tree. More recently when I was visiting the Jamestown area in VA, I saw a massive one on one of the nearby historic estates.

    Anyway, the dawn redwood were not planted in this country until somewhere near 1946--they were recently discovered by "westerners," and not available here before that. So we don't really have any very old ones and haven't seen them develop over a long period of time. One thing I like about baldcypress is that they are very long-lived--a true "legacy" tree. They grow in a more or less compact conical/pyramidal form when young, but then spread with age. We could speculate that dawn redwoods will be long-lived here also, but we can't be sure. I have seen pictures of older ones in China, and it seems that they also spread more with age.

    As for cultivars, I don't know much, and have not really seen any, except for little ones. But, like you, I am interested in the BC "Shawnee Brave," and planted one last year in a very special place where a more spreading tree wouldn't work. I have hopes that in a few years it will be gorgeous.

    --Spruce

  • mackel_in_dfw
    12 years ago

    BC is very genetically diverse, it is important that you find one that does well in your microclimate. Make sure you know where your strain comes from and therefore what it is adopted to.

    Some do well in very dry, alkaline conditions and most do very well in a swamp. Know your soil pH and rainfall levels. It is said that overall, the Dawn Redwood does well in a wider range of conditions if you don't know your source of bc.

    (The chinese have hybridized the mexican and american bc and have come up with some superior hybrids. At Stephen F. Austin University they are testing a wide array of bc strains, including hybrids, google for more information.)

  • subtropix
    12 years ago

    I have seen some massive DR's in local botanical gardens--it's the girth of the trunk that is truly impressive. If these trees were planted as recently as the 1940's, their growth must be extraordinarily fast. DR's are more tolerant of lower light conditions but less tolerant of drought (but both can tolerate if not thrive in wet conditions). BC's are more tolerant of continental climate extremes, DR's appreciate some maritime moderation to the local climate as they can be prone to damage from late frosts as leaves emerge in early Spring.

  • bengz6westmd
    12 years ago

    Spruce & others, I finally got to grow & work w/BCs since I moved here. I planned to plant some along my stream-border, so I gathered seed from several impressive specimens in the Hagerstown City park. Just disassembled the cones & covered the seeds w/water in a glass in the frig over winter. Planted ~80 seeds outside next spring & got ~90% germination! I've transplanted from there 11 trees into the narrow, rocky flood-plain. These all had big tap roots to cut & so suffered for several yrs, but all survived & are around 5-7 ft tall. The soil is waterlogged most of the year, and hence the trees grow best during the hottest, driest weather!

    In 2004 I also planted three Pond cypresses in normally-drained soil above the flood-plain & these are almost 25' tall & maintain very narrow outlines. But they aren't quite as hardy as the BCs -- a bit of cold-damage on the twig ends every winter from too-late growth -- but not a real problem.
    One of the most impressive BCs I've seen was a giant, planted, lawn tree in a town near the Big Sandy river in SE Kentucky. It looked like a giant oak with a widespread crown of huge, horizontal branches -- not what one would expect. Prb'ly 6 ft dia ABH w/a massive root buttress on the ground.

  • bengz6westmd
    12 years ago

    Just to add, I do have a single DR. Planted in 2004 as a bareroot stick, it's now ~30 ft tall & the trunk is swollen to 11 inches diameter at the ground (but tapers rapidly going up). No tree I've planted has a bigger dia at the ground -- not even close. It's in soil w/good drainage but a high water-table.

  • abciximab
    12 years ago

    Currently my favorite variegated DR is my Metasequoia glyptostroboides 'Snow Flurry'.

    {{gwi:441517}}

    {{gwi:441519}}

  • j0nd03
    12 years ago

    Very nice specimen there. Beautiful... oh man I may have to add that to the 'want' list...

    Thanks for sharing!

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    12 years ago

    This Bald cypress rules...

    {{gwi:327902}}

  • wisconsitom
    12 years ago

    Yup Lou ^^^. That is a good looker.

    +oM

  • snasxs
    12 years ago

    I have photos of DR. Can someone post more BC?

    {{gwi:441522}}

    {{gwi:441523}}

  • wisconsitom
    12 years ago

    snasxs, do you know where this is^^^?

    +oM

  • pineresin
    12 years ago

    "I have photos of DR. Can someone post more BC?"

    The first of these two photos is definite BC, and the second probably is too.

    "snasxs, do you know where this is^^^? "

    Snasxs almost never gives locations ;-)

    Resin

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    12 years ago

    It always seemed like the pictures Snasxs posts are from China. I dunno. China has done a serious research on taxodium breeding for a while. I wonder if that's from China?

  • greatplainsturf
    12 years ago

    Do either of these trees have a better tolerance to wind? Not only damage from winds in heavy storms, but also resistance from becoming windswept. I'm looking at a BC in my neighbors yard that is basically flat on the south side with all branches growing north. Is DR better with this?

  • alexander3_gw
    12 years ago

    Spruceman, interesting that you don't like the ropey trunk on DR, that's what I like best about it! Here's one at Longwood gardens outside on Philadelphia. I believe it's one of the originals planted in this country, so 60 some years old:
    {{gwi:441526}}
    Spectacular!

  • snasxs
    12 years ago

    Alex, yes, the leaves of your DR (Dawn Redwood) look like those from palms (Arecaceae). They are large.

    I repeat my request, please post some detailed pictures of BC (Bald Cypress).

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    12 years ago

    I will try for a link for ya.

    Bald cypress is a common park tree around here and perhaps uncommon but not rare by any means in suburban settings. Google should have millions of pictures. Don't expect the knees though if you do not have very wet soil or a lake in its dripline.

    I have spent considerably more time watching two of my metasequoias grow however. The leaders seem to remain soft for some time and has broken after about 10 inches of growth on my big tree several times.

    Here is a link that might be useful: did the link work? I posted from my cell

  • greenthumbzdude
    12 years ago

    Here is my 2 cents:

    Dawn Redwood- Taller, (200+ feet, 8+ feet diameter)faster growth

    Bald Cypress- Larger,(150+ feet, 20+ feet diameter)slower growth,can handle more water

  • greatplainsturf
    12 years ago

    This is what I am talking about. Is DR less prone to this or is this any tree in this location? Sorry for the bad pic, but you get the idea.

    {{gwi:441528}}

  • snasxs
    12 years ago

    Greatplainsturf, is OK that windy? We are not windy. So I do not know.

    However, there is a special pine that I know of: Pinus syluestriformis that is known to have special ability to withstand persistent strong wind. Image below:

    {{gwi:441530}}

  • pineresin
    12 years ago

    Baldcypress foliage and cones:

    {{gwi:441531}}

    Resin

  • snasxs
    12 years ago

    Pine Resin, are the leaves of BC much smaller than DR?

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    12 years ago

    greatplainsturf,

    I saw the same thing here in FW-Dallas area...if left to open wind exposure, BCs look like that.

  • greatplainsturf
    12 years ago

    I guess it is that windy. This is in my neighbors back yard. Anyone seen DR do this?

  • wisconsitom
    12 years ago

    I've seen one or two DRs that have rather confused and asymmetric form. I think there's a fair degree of genetic variability within the types that have been planted on this continent. Some are of the classic, excurrent conifer type, and some don't seem to know what they want to be!

    BTW, I'm thinking my two up at my land (Used to be three) are perhaps the most northerly-planted in the US that I've heard of. At that cold, Z 4 location, they're not all that really. At least so far, it's a game of surviving, not thriving.

    +oM

  • pineresin
    12 years ago

    "are the leaves of BC much smaller than DR?"

    Yes.

    Also note the clustered, sessile (unstalked) cones, around 3-4 cm diameter; DR cones are pendulous on long stalks and smaller, around 2-3 cm.

    Resin

  • bengz6westmd
    12 years ago

    lou_midlothian,

    You've posted that pic before & it's always impressive -- unusually densely-foliaged. Do you know if that's a typical BC, a subspecies, variant, or hybrid?

    The specimen I collected most of my seeds from was similar -- a bit taller w/a much larger trunk (4' dia abh). It was almost as dense & (barely) kept a pointed, single-leadered top. The form was like a giant, fat Christmas tree.

    Pond cypress is impressive in foliage -- looks more like a juniper, true cypress or giant sequoia than a BC.

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    12 years ago

    Beng,

    Initially, I thought it may be Taxodium mucronatum. I asked around. A few thought it looked like T. mucronatum. A director of university arboretum liked its form and asked for cones. He noted that the size of seeds fall in between mucronatum and distichum. The key difference between these two species is that mucronatum stays green about a month longer (starts growth early and can retain green foliage significantly longer into late fall/early winter. Even most of winter if it is mild enough. However, this one is drops its foliage at the same time as other bald cypress trees so who knows? I wish I could find out where it came from. I haven't seen any bald cypress like that.

  • lou_spicewood_tx
    12 years ago

    {{gwi:441533}}

    What Montezuma cypress looks like at Stephen F Austin State University. Apparently, the biggest knockoff on MC is weak leader dominant but this one is surrounded by BCs so maybe that helps for some things. So far, my seedlings - better overall form, more dominant central leader, more evergreen.

  • spruceman
    12 years ago

    Alexander:

    Yes, the ropy trunks can be really nice. Spectacular picture. I actually saw that tree a number of years ago--it has grown since!

    --spruce

  • dickhamly
    11 years ago

    This 115 ft DRW is located in McCrillis garden in Bethesda, MD. It is so tall and straight, it does not even look like a DRW.

  • dickhamly
    11 years ago

    These two DRWs are at the west end of the Sunken Garden on the U of William and Mary campus in Williamsburg, VA.
    For size estimate, note the 5'3" girl standing in front of the two trees.

  • botann
    11 years ago

    Here's an old picture of one of mine. Nov. 2, 2006.
    I'll see if I can take a new picture tomorrow. Last time I measured it, the tree was 80 ft. tall. I planted it in 1979. The tree was limbed up early and the trunk is smooth.
    Looking west.
    Mike

    {{gwi:441536}}

  • lkz5ia
    11 years ago

    Corn grows great here, dawn redwood not so much. Baldcypress has done better so far. Though I have some new dawn redwood seedlings that seem to have better vigor..

  • Sue Hughes
    6 years ago

    Does anyone know how close a group of three Dawn Redwoods can be planted and still look good? I have a small yard and want a natural grouping of them.

  • Toronado3800 Zone 6 St Louis
    6 years ago

    Now that you ask, I wonder how far apart the group at MOBOT is.

    Do you want to leave the lower branches on or not?

    Any other shade in the area?

    For me with regular soecies trees I'd go 35-40 feet apart on an east - west line. I like gnarly trunks.

  • hairmetal4ever
    6 years ago

    I'll have an interesting case study on their growth rate from seed in Maryland. My lone DR is three years old, my BCs are two, but close enough that I can compare. The DR after a single growing season was much shorter (22") than the BCs at the same age, but the DR had slightly better caliper and a MUCH better shape. The BCs were nearly three feet tall, but floppy and irregular.


    Over time, I will see how that goes.

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