ALL maple have surface roots.. which make it difficult to garden under.. and ruin lawns [in the very long run] ... and can invade old septic lines/sewer connections ...

i dont know if one is sterile ...

ken

Thanks, Ken. From reading old threads, I know how you feel about maples. :)

We live in a very dry, windy part of WA with alkaline, sandy (some loam) soil. 6 inches of rain a year. Of course, we would need to irrigate to keep these trees happy..... but we are limited on what thrives here.

I have an acre or so of back yard to landscape.... and a lot of direct/western sun to deal with. Because of the size of the yard, I want two or three fast-growing, large trees.... in the back 1/3. They would be far from our septic and house.... and not in an area I *need* to garden under. (I will have lots of other, smaller trees.... elsewhere.)

This is a list from a local forestry council on recommended shade trees..... do any of these sound better to the maple critics? :) If not, I will probably proceed with one or the other of the above.

RED HORSECHESTNUT (Aesculus x carnea) 30-40'. This tree is not for small yards. Its true beauty is its dark green foliage and deep red flowers. Very showy when in bloom.

RED MAPLE (Acer rubra) 50-70'. Rounded tree with good red fall color. Good for poorly drained sites.

SUGAR MAPLE (Acer saccharum) 60-120'. This is an excellent shade tree but it needs plenty of room. Orange to yellow fall color. Has some disease problems.

RIVER BIRCH (Betula nigra) 40-70'. This birch does best in moist soils and prefers an acid soil, but can be grown here if acidifying fertilizer is used. One of the most trouble-free birches and is resistant to bronze birch borer. It has an apricot colored peeling bark that is an attractive feature. �Heritage� is a considered a superior selection that has good vigor and grows relatively fast.

WHITESPIRE WHITE BIRCH (Betula platyphylla japonica 'Whitespire Senior'). The only white barked birch which is bronze birch borer resistant. You must have 'Whitespire Senior' for resistance to borer.

GREEN ASH (Fraxinus pennysylvanica) 50-60'. A popular shade tree with two bad points. It has a big problem with aphids and other insects and the seeds and seedling create a nuisance. Look for 'Marshall's Seedless' cultivar for a seedless vigorous tree. Ash borers are beginning to devastate this tree and you may want to reconsider planting it.

THORNLESS COMMON HONEYLOCUST (Gleditsia triacanthos var. inermis) 30-70'. A "perfect" tree for filtered shade. A relatively new insect problem (honey locust pod gall midge) had made the tree less than "perfect." Avoid the 'Sunburst' cultivar because of this insect pest.

KENTUCKY COFFEE TREE (Gymnocladus dioicus) 60-75'. This large tree is adaptable to our harsh growing conditions. Its bark has an interesting pattern. One problem with this tough tree is the litter it creates with its seed pods and leaves. Use only in large areas.

AMERICAN SWEETGUM (Liquidambar styracifula) 60-75'. Needs room to develop roots but it is a nice tree with excellent fall color and corky bark. Prefers an acid soil and should be fertilized with an acidifying fertilizer. Few insect problems in our area. 'Moraini' is an excellent cultivar with a faster rate of growth.

AMERICAN HOP HORN BEAM (Ostrya virginiana) 25-40'. A nice, medium sized tree with many horizontal and drooping branches. Tolerates partial shade. Slow to establish.

PERSIAN PERROTIA (Parrotia persica) 20-40'. Here�s a tree with few pest problems and it has very nice shiny leaves and exfoliating bark. It�s yellow-orange-scarlet fall color is unsurpassed by any other tree. This is the perfect landscape tree. If you can find it, plant it.

LONDON PLANE TREE (Plantanus x acerifolia) 70-100'. Warning: this is a sycamore and it's a BIG tree! Select only anthracnose and powdery mildew resistant cultivars. One cultivar, `Yarwood� is very resistant to powdery mildew and fairly resistant to anthracnose. �Bloodgood� is very resistant to anthracanose. `Liberty� and `Columbia� are two other cultivars that have been touted as being anthracnose resistant, but they�re apparently only resistant to eastern strains of the disease and not western strains of the disease.

RED OAK (Quercus rubra) 60-75'. An oak with relatively fast growth. Red fall color. Relatively few insect and disease problems. Interesting furrowed bark. This tree needs room, give it plenty of space to grow into.

ENGLISH OAK (Quercus robur) 40-60'. Tolerant to eastern Washington conditions. Also a narrow columnar form is available.

LITTLELEAF LINDEN (Tilia cordata) 60-70'. An excellent shade tree. Aphids may be a problem. Can be pruned into a hedge form.

SILVER LINDEN (Tilia tomentosa) 50-70'. A very nice shade tree with attractive foliage. Top of leaves are green, bottom sides are silver. Fragrant flowers in July. Tolerates heat and drought fairly well. Nice smooth gray bark. Aphids may be a problem.

CHINESE ELM (Ulmus parvifolia) to 50'. Small to medium sized tree. Relatively problem free. Interesting mottled bark. Quite drought and alkaline soil tolerant. Not to be confused with the Siberian Elm (Ulmus pumila).

JAPANESE ZELKOVA (Zelkova serrata) 50-80'. A handsome tree with an interesting growth habit. Somewhat difficult to establish. Look for the cultivars 'Village Green' and 'Halka'.

If I'm going to bare with you - and I'm not shy - who goes first, or do we go together? Fun! ;o)

The AB is mostly sterile most years. The OG is not. I've seen no difference in surface rooting between the two.

DS

You'll find on that side of the state maples will make you unhappy. I'd choose from:

Gleditsia triacanthos var. inermis, Gymnocladus dioicus, Ulmus parvifolia, Parrotia persica to save on water. Why that list has birch and some of the others is beyond me, unless they think they are going next to cattle ponds...

.02

Dan

As Dan said, AB will seed in very small amounts compared to OG. I am not sure about the fertility of the AB seeds as it is a hybrid between acer saccharinum and acer rubrum. OG will definitely produce viable seeds in large quantities. This is not say one tree is superior to the other. I have both and would personally go with OG where I am.

Surface rooting will be largely determined by your soil type and watering schedule but they will both put out some mowing obstacles a decade or two down the road.

Did I read that right when you said you only get 6" of rain a year? Is that less than Death Valley? Doesn't sound like a good place for trees. Good luck with that! :)

I would not mess with oaks in alkaline soil. My choice for your yard would be either AB maple or an ash. I have no idea what the EAB and other borers are doing in your neck of the woods.

We had a horrible drought with extreme temps into the 110-120* range fairly common this past summer. Of all the oaks, maples, willows, elm, cypress, cherry, dogwood, redbud, magnolia, ash etc etc, the LOCAL ash have faired the best for some odd reason. My understanding is they like to be near water but around here our local ash with their DNA specialized to our climate did not display cosmetically the stress like the others did. There are quite a few examples at/near my house where oaks, maples, and even loblolly pines and eastern red cedar were leafless/dead/dying and an ash right next to them looks fine.

John

j0nd03, where they are most of the precip is snow. There is some rain, not much.

I have friends in Wenatchee that get ~9" at their ranch, no native trees there out of drainages, as it is generally sage steppe-northern Great Basin ecosystem.

Soil too alkaline for many on that (IMHO poor) list. Co Extension a good resource. If you have turf and need a tree, London plane will do, but I'd contact Extension first and avoid listening to what the nursery says - they just want to make sales goals in most cases.

Dan

Our precipitation is mostly rain, not snow...... I'm in Tri-Cities area, not Spokane ;) Yes, it is 6 or 7 inches a year..... in Washington State!

Some trees grow native here, but mostly around the rivers (probably why birch is on that...) I do live pretty close to a river and in a low spot (where the aquifer is plentiful....there is a grove of some native trees growing in the adjacent property because of it.) .... There is water here; it's just underground :) Thus, I will use my well/spinklers to keep trees happy and alive.

Dan -- why do you think maples would make me unhappy here? There are quite a few sizable specimens in my little town.....

I'm going to google the others you named. I appreciate you (all) taking the time to read through choices and give feedback.

Just curious - what are the native trees in that area? Do oaks not grow there naturally?

Dan is the expert in that part of the country. I agree county extension should steer you in the right direction and they are not swayed by hitting sales goals unlike the nursery ;-)

John

Ah, tri-sh...cities. I have a friend who grew up there. You should notice the maples tend toward chlorosis there, especially now-ish. So you are in the northern Great Basin shrub-steppe and that is an alkaline soil, which maples on that list don't care for.

Dan

Ahhh... ok..... I decoded your suggestions, Dan ;) :

#1. Gleditsia triacanthos var. inermis -- Honeylocust. I will definitely have several in my yard, as they grow so beautifully here.

#2. Gymnocladus dioicus - Kentucky Coffeetree --- I'm not sure I'd recognize this tree driving around, even after googling images. Is the toxicity of the leaves/seeds something people are concerned about? (I know there is concern over black walnuts toxicity w/ animals.... but, again, I haven't heard of this tree...) Also, is the fruit obnoxious to clean up?

#3. Ulmus parvifolia - lacebark/chinese elm - This looks like a good choice. Thank you.

#4. Parrotia persica - Persian Ironwood Tree??? Parrotia? I haven't heard of it, but the resources online say it likes acidic soil. It's beautiful, though.

And, John --- ash is a definite contender.

Next stop will be our local extension office.....

Dan -- where do you live?

"Just curious - what are the native trees in that area? Do oaks not grow there naturally?"

Naturally, the landscape is sagebrush and a bunch of weeds. We have the tallest tree-less mountain in the country here. (Boo!)

This list: http://www.wnps.org/cbasin/pdf/eastern_wa_native_plants_2.pdf (on page 3 of 3) is the most accurate for what grows native. If you notice, it's a short list.

For sandy soil, the only tree listed in Western Juniper. For rocky soil, ponderosa pine, garry oak and western juniper (again.) For moist soil, quaking aspen, chokecherry and water birch.

I can drive about 60 minutes and be up in mountains with a variety of native trees.... but we are in a weird little spot that is.... challenging. (Dan, yes.. some would even say sh-city :)) However, there are trees here.... there is also A LOT of agriculture..... A cherry orchard is to the south of my property, a berry orchard to the east, etc.

Dry and alkaline - you will definitely have challenges. I wonder if you can grow oddball stuff like pistachio, peach and almonds? (semi arid fruit/nut trees from Iran which I would guess has a similar climate). As for shade trees, you are limited. I agree with ash (except for borer) - they seem to do well on the Great Plains. Also Russian Olive, aspen (maybe some other poplars might work? White? Cottonwood? I wouldn't normally recommend, but you have limited options and a whole acre - just don't plant CLOSE to anything). There are oaks in the white oak group that are ok with somewhat alkaline soil, but they HATE lots of freeze/thaw cycles you probably get in the winter... i wouldn't bother unless you've seen them around. You can also try some of the siberian stuff - that seems to live in anything (like someone mentioned siberian elm). As for maples, I would guess the only thing that would come close would be pure silver or possibly autumn blaze red/silver hybrids. They would need water though. 6" is crazy dry! Maybe global warming will bring monsoons? ;)

Dan -- where do you live?

I used to live in Enumclaw and Seattle, Lauren, now in Colo. I get to Wenatchee to visit friends ~every 2 years these days.

And Russian olive and aspen are incredibly bad choices for that place - and I suspect RO might be prohibited.

Dan

Yes, our rainfall is incredibly low, especially since I grew up on the wet side of Oregon. I miss trees! While the rainfall is low, people still have trees and yards. Like I said, water is plentiful underground.... I am trying to design as much of my landscape with water in mind.... mostly xeric plants around the perimeter, septic, etc. However, we will have a lawn and sprinklers in a portion. I can run a dripline to any tree that needs extra water... I don't want to be limited to junipers, pines, sagebrush and the unrelenting heat!! :)

If anyone is good at identifying trees, I'm curious what trees are growing without supplemental water in the adjacent property: http://imageshack.us/g/197/dscn0447u.jpg/ The 4th photo in that album has the clearest shot of the leaves.

corkball- I don't think any nut trees grow around here, but I can ask our next-door-farmers. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: http://imageshack.us/g/197/dscn0447u.jpg/

Looks like Siberian elm from here in the distant foto, and this ~looks like western hackberry, maybe trick of the light. Great tendency to messiness and large summer branch drop in age in garden situations. In that place with that precip they rarely see 35' unless they can find water on their own.

Dan

Dan,

The photos you referenced are of the same tree. I just looked online. I'm almost certain they are Siberian Elms. They look exactly like {{gwi:435344}} in Spring. Very bright green, tiny buds. The grove/thicket in the adjacent property does have some trees that are 35'+, but there are also lots of dead branches/trees mixed in. I am pretty certain they have a shallower-than-normal source of groundwater collecting in that spot.

Anyway, THANK YOU. I wish I could spend a day with one of you tree lovers and soak in the info.

I looked at the list - looks like a challenging place indeed. Good luck!

Sorry if I missed some details but some of my favorite trees for dry alkaline soils...

Ginkgo biloba 'Autumn Gold' or any cultivar for that matter!
Gymnocladus dioicus 'Espresso'
Tilia tomentosa 'Sterling Silver'
Crataegus crusgalli 'Crusader'
Acer truncatum
Ostrya virginiana
Maackia amurensis
Corylus colurna

Late to the party (too much work), but I do have on suggestion, but not really a shade tree. One of my favorites that should be fine with a little water Cotinus obovatus, American smoke tree. Natively grows on top of limestone bluffs usually facing southwest. This habitat is very dry and hot, with alkaline soil. They have a unique color in leaf, and gorgeous in fall.

As shade trees go, perhaps Juniperus virginiana Eastern Red Cedar. These grow fairly fast, and can take allot of drought, so should be well adapted to your location (often the only other plant found with the American Smoke Tree above). Another possible choice is Quercus coccinea Scarlet Oak. They natively grow on dry exposed ridge tops, so likely tend to like it on the dry side. Southern Red Oak Q. falcata tends to grow on dry exposed locations with limestone just underneath. Black Jack Oak Q. marilandica grows on sandy dry location, and may work as well. Big-Toothed Maple Acer grandidentatum should be able to tolerate the soil with some watering.

Almost all the trees I suggested are eastern trees with a dry exposed native habitat often over limestone. Therefore dry conditions with high pH. I'm sure there are many other that could possible work if given a try. For more suggestions look up what trees grow natively in similar habitats.

Arktree

Arktree-

I have a smoke tree planted already with room for more. They are beautiful. :)

I also have many junipers in ground near the perimeter, although not that type. Ours are moonglow, because there are several properties here with LARGE moonglows flourishing with little supplemental water.

The only other trees in ground currently are a couple of serpentine blue atlas cedars, a couple Orangeola Japanese maples and a pendulous Norway Spruce. I do plan on also getting some large spruce trees, dogwoods and honeylocusts (as mentioned.)

I will look up the other suggestions from you and from whaas. :) I welcome and appreciate more suggestions (or saying a particular choice sounds right,) as I will no longer be purchasing a large maple. THANK YOU!

Persian ironwood not being watered often stops growing and droops when summer drought hits in Seattle. The native area it comes from is rainy. Recommendations for using it where drought tolerance is required seem baseless.

If you are within reasonably convenient driving distance of either the Yakima Area Arboretum or the Finch Arboretum in Spokane I would go there and look at the trees in the collections, see what appeals. You may have to order through the internet or mail to get a specific kind.

I can go to Yakima next week (it's in my work territory) to look at the arboretum. Great idea, especially since I haven't been there. Yakima gets a bit more precipitation, but it's close enough to our climate.

Our nurseries are so limited here, I probably will have to turn to internet ordering or buying in Portland....

Thanks, bboy.

When you are at the Yakima collection note how heavily it is watered.

As a St Louis boy the idea of having to provide water to an established tree is completely foreign to me.

This summer may be providing me with a rare window into your world. The dry heat is weeding out the weakest of the yard trees.

bboy -- good idea. Hopefully, someone there will be able to answer my questions. Yakima gets 8 inches a year (4 inches rain, 4 inches snow) .... so it will be a good guide.

toronado - I'm sorry to hear about your trees!

I grew up and went to college in a much wetter part of Oregon...... but I've been in this area since then. It has been difficult to learn to garden here...(very little resources and not much online is applicable...xeric forums are too specific to SW, for instance.) When I have read forums online about people not watering trees after establishing them, I was shocked and jealous :)

Same as everywhere, the most direct approach is to plant trees etc. that are adapted to the existing conditions. If your site is one that supports few kinds of trees without irrigation, and you do not choose and plant one of those few kinds, then you will have to water your trees indefinitely - not just at the start.

The Yakima collection is planted in what amounts to one huge hydroponic lawn, kept quite damp throughout the season. Heavy irrigation of outdoor living and playing spaces seems to have been taken as a given over there, at least in the vicinity of rivers. The moist breezes coming off of large irrigated turf areas is certainly a pleasant relief from the arid heat emanating from exposed soil and pavement.

Very few trees will grow there, period, without much irrigation. Lavishing drinking-quality water on landscapes will not last forever.

One must choose trees very carefully these days and if you wish to realistically have trees around for the next generation then figure on choosing trees that need no more than, say, 5 inches of supplemental water a year. Nestle will be back to purchase water and once prices are high enough landscapes will go brown.

Dan

>PERSIAN PERROTIA (Parrotia persica) 20-40'. Here�s a tree with few pest
>problems and it has very nice shiny leaves and exfoliating bark. It�s yellow-
>orange-scarlet fall color is unsurpassed by any other tree. This is the perfect
>landscape tree. If you can find it, plant it.

I've had one of these for 6 or 7 years in Pennsylvania. It's a fine looking tree, but I wouldn't count on the fall color. Some individual leaves on mine look interesting, with a variety of colors on one leaf. Unfortunately, most of the leaves just turn yellow. The overall impression is dull and nondescript. Other people on this forum have also been disappointed by the fall color. Here's a picture from the fall of 2009:

{{gwi:435347}}

A lot of the inner leaves hold on to the tree all winter.

Mine is not a named variety......the cultivar 'Vanessa' may be more reliable for fall color. Of course, if a local nursery carries them, you could pick one that has good color.

It has been trouble free for me, maybe getting a few nibbles from the Japanese beetles, but not much.

Alex

Thanks for the photo.

I'm leaning toward a mix of:

honeylocust
linden
ash (not sure what type yet)

Sound ok?

If it matters none of these are desert trees, except maybe some kinds of ash growing along rivers and streams in some locales.

I Love my American Basswood/Linden. In the spring, when it blooms, it smells so wonderful in the evenings and it draws in the moths as well as bees. :) Mine is shaped nicely as well. I just need to have a few of the bottom limbs trimmed off.
{{gwi:412381}}

As for cottonwood trees, I would never suggest planting them unless you want a coating of their 'cotton' over your yard when they go to seed.

~Tina

PS the lawn is dead due to a spraying for weeds, a total burn down. lol We're reseeding soon. :) Miserable business really, but needed to be done.

How many inches of irrigation are you going to put down for the linden? 15? What will you do after Emerald Ash Borer hits?

Dan

Right? My mature Lindens are showing stress here in WI. I cut down the one Ash tree that was in my yard.

Tilia shown above looks like littleleaf linden to me, and not American basswood.

bboy, both questionable in tri-sh...cities.

Dan

Maybe it is a little leaf, I didn't plant it, inherited it. Now that I just googled that one, it is that. Ah well, someone else told me it was the American Basswood/Linden. But it is still a really pretty tree and smells wonderful in the evenings. :)

I wouldn't dare plant a second in my yard though, the scent would be far too over powering then. And it did have this horrid little two layer of those cement circle making brick things, I'm not sure what those are called. But over the 3 1/2 yrs here it was being pushed out away from the tree so I removed that from around it this spring and put that in the back yard solo with herbs planted in it. These cement things are more appropriate in this usage. :P

~Tina

By the way folks, I love coming here to read all the instructive knowledge you all share with folks and of course, the wonderful humour too!

Zone 3b is much like Zone 3a, but with slightly milder winter averages of 19 to 29°F (�"7 to �"2°C) and extremes that usually bottom out between �"2 and �"15°F (�"19 to �"26°C). Summer temperatures are a bit higher than in Zone 3a�"mostly in the high 80s and low- to mid-90s. Zone 3b offers one of the longest growing seasons of the intermountain climates. Gardeners here count on 180 to 210 frost-free days with plenty of heat. However, it’s one of the smallest zones. Most of it lies in the warmest parts of eastern Washington’s Columbia Basin,with bits in Lewiston, Idaho, and parts of the Southwest. This is fabulous country for annual vegetables and flowers and a long list of perennials, trees, shrubs, and vines

Here is a link that might be useful: Sunset climate zones: Eastern Washington, Eastern Oregon, and Idaho - Sunset.com

My friends in Wenatchee are 3b while I am 2b in a similar position relative to a mountain range. They are often 3-4 weeks ahead of us in spring and go 2-3 weeks past us in fall. Many things to enjoy on that side, including sunshine. One thing they don't enjoy is trees on their property, as it is too dry and they don't irrigate.

Dan

Yes, we are Sunset 3B here.... The sunshine on most days and temps in summer is the reason so much agriculture grows successfully here. Of course, they irrigate. I am surprised Wenatchee is the same zone as us, but I guess it doesn't take into account the amount of snowfall they get (They are probably the -15f extreme.. we are more like -5f.)

RE: the suitability of the trees I listed,

The Thornless Honeylocust seems to thrive here, it does well in alkaline soil and is drought tolerant. As a prairie tree, it thrives in full sun. I have noticed many honeylocusts in yards that do not irrigate, growing just fine... The list of negatives of the tree is pretty short, and it seems very adaptable to our conditions.

Linden -- RE: irrigating, I don't know. We will have some lawn on the property, so a tree/trees in that area would get more water. Linden tolerates alkaline soil and has small leaves... Thus, it seemed to be an *option.*

ash -- I still have to go to our local extension office.. I will ask them about borers here. Ash also tolerates alkaline soil and was another option for my lawn area. If the borers are that bad here, I won't consider it.

Linden gets summer leaf scorch in the west so you'll have to consider the aesthetics of that. If you use it, it'll have to go in turf to get enough water. My friends get a little more precip than you do from snow, not enough for trees, which are bout another 3-400' in elevation uphill from them. You'll want to consider pines on the north side of your house for winter wind blocking, standard fare in the west.

Dan

Well, linden might not be a contender then...... :) Thanks for mentioning that.

The majority of our wind comes from the south, but your point is still noted. (We have been in the house a year. Summer is mostly calm/no wind, but in Winter the tumbleweeds all accumulate on our S/SW fence... :)) I have some upright junipers planted on that side and will stagger other evergreens..... (ponderosa pine... on the perimeter.) We are also currently building a privacy screen/pergola on that side which will help.

I need to put more thought into chinese elm, london plane tree, etc. that were recommended above. The frustrating part is the local nurseries just like to stock MAPLES, willows, etc.

I know this is an older thread, but I have both of these trees in my yard, and wanted to comment. These have been in the ground perhaps 20 years, and they've both grown well.

Fifteen years ago there was a major ice storm here, destroyed a lot of trees, but these two were young at the time and made it though. Fast forward to last week when we had another major ice storm. October Glory came through with flying colours, Autumn Blaze is split and shattered, its Silver Maple genes coming out in it's brittleness when it comes to ice storms. It's so bad, even if it's way out in the yard (I live in a rural area on a farm) where I don't really see it too much, it may have to come down. Another Silver Maple in my yard, an old tree, which split and shattered in the storm 15 years ago, did the same things all over again. It's quite a mess.

Just wanted to put this out there for folks to consider if they are in an area that gets ice storms.

jennifer75, living in/near forests for yrs, red maple has essentially the same brittle wood as silver maple. No tree was damaged more than red maple during the 1994 ice-storm in VA. Often the "form" presented to the falling rain (that then freezes) is the problem.