skip to main content

Madame Isaac Pereire vs. Madame Ernest Calvat

cincy_city_garden

16 years ago

I know that Madame Ernest Calvat is a sport of MIP and that it's a lighter pink...Is that the only difference? I was ready to order MIP, but found MEC and I like the lighter color.

I'm wondering if there is any difference in fragrance or bloom form (like how Souvenir St. Anne's is a semi double sport of SdLM).

How much can the sport vary?

Thanks in advance,

Eric

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (12)

jerijen
16 years ago
Mme. E Calvat has seemed more resistant to rust and mildew here than her parent.
Not REAL resistant -- but better than MIP. The fragrances, bloom form and habit seem to me to be identical.

FWIW, Our MEC has on several occasions sported back to MIP.
Thus endeth any argument (at least for ME) over whether
MEC is a sport, or a seedling.
She certainly seems to be a sport.

Jeri
morrisnoor
16 years ago
Hi Eric!
Not only Mme Ernst Calvat is more paler than Mme Isaac Pereire, but has also a more restrained, tiny growth. The blooms are full petalled, and each petal is darker at reverse. The young foliage is purple, and flowers a little bit smaller than her mother. MEC seems in my experience to be a much better rebloomer than MIP.
The perfume is the same, enchanting and strong.

Enjoy!!! :o)

Maurizio

PS: both roses are susceptible to powdery mildew, and rust after flowering if not well watered.
Related Discussions
Madame Isaac Pereire is sulking..what to do???.
Q
Comments (8)
My original Madame came with the house (5 years ago), a huge old plant planted alongside a treated pine arbour. At first she was a sickly, rusty thing but when I walked out one mornoing to find the whole garden saturated with the scent of just one open bloom, I had to keep her and have since bought her a sister which I planted against another pillar. the canes grow very tall, so I either tie them up to the wire of the arbour or cut them. Ideally you should peg them out, but I dont have space for that, so I just chop off whatever looks awkward. It's not a pretty plant, inheriting ugly canes from its damask parents and sprawling dendancies from the Chinas, but the blooms make up for it. Now that I have improved the sandy soil with bentonite (cat litter) and have been giving more regular organic fertiliser, the foliage is looking really good and she is putting out new canes left-right and centre. I would give yours a good thick mulching with lupin mulch or sillilar and a drench with sea-weed tonic (not a fertiliser) to promote new canes from the base. Then, if you can, peg them out along the ground. Don't try and keep the stiunted old canes living. It seems to go better when you cut them off after theyre spent (as you have) and alow them to be replaced from the base. But thats just my experience. This may help. http://www.vintagerosery.com/roses/madameisaacpereire_.htm
...See More
The Prince and Madam Isaac Pierre?
Q
Comments (11)
Late to the thread, but at my old house, Madame Isaac Pereire from an Heirloom band grew to about a foot the first year, about 2 feet the second year and over 5 feet tall and wide the third year, very bushy and not the long graceful canes I was hoping for. She was planted on a west wall, with about 6 hours of sun a day. A perfect example of 'First they sleep, then they creep, then they leap.' I took her out because she took over the space, and the flowers came out just when the summer heat arrived, and I only had crispy little balls of magenta unless I cut them in the morning. I should have just figured a way to give her some afternoon shade. Here is a link that might be useful: Garden at the Modern House
...See More
No buds on Mme. Ernest Calvat
Q
Comments (5)
I'm in zone 6b also, but midcontinental. In my experience, MEC is a spectacular, huge, VERY floriferous rose. But, it needs a few seasons to build up the big structure needed to put out all those blooms. This is only the second season in the ground for my MIP, but it bloomed its heart out anyway on very little plant. Actually, it bloomed some last year too. With MEC, I got no blooms the first season in the ground, and 1 or 2 buds that spoiled the second season. It put on tons of growth that year, then a HUGE flush in the third season. Tons more growth, then another huge flush in its fourth season. It is the most fragrant rose in my garden by far (even more than MIP). The downside is that those massive flushes seem to stress the plant. It needs spraying and generous amendments in my garden. Before those huge flushes, a prettier plant could hardly be found - the burgundy new growth is more prominent than with most other roses - stays around for a long time, like Westerland. Another downside - the blooms spoil somewhat easily. I won't lie, I've struggled with whether to keep it or not, but definitely not for lack of bloom. It's proving not to be a low maintenance rose as it matures. And it's gigantic, so when it's good it's breathtaking, but when it's looking sickly it can't fail to be noticed. I'm hoping reducing it to a more manageable size might help. Both MEC and MIP were healthy 2 year plants when I put them in the ground (from a TX ebay seller and ARE, respectively).
...See More
Madame Isaac Pereire vs. Souvenir du President Lincoln
Q
Comments (9)
I can't say much about it, since it came as a band only this Spring, but another possible alternative in a similar mold could be 'Mme de Sevigne'. I got mine from Long Ago Roses after my 'Mme Isaac Pereire' bit the dust from freeze damage. I emailed Linda asking if she had an extra MIP available, and she recommended I try MdS. It might not be the original rose, but whatever it is, I like the looks of the (few) pics of it on HelpMeFind. Another long-caned fragrant Bourbon in a similar "look" would be 'Deuil de Dr. Reynaud' (which also might not be the original, and might be the same rose being sold as 'Philemon Cochet'). I've never seen it (nor PC), but I was looking into them when I was trying to pick out a long-caned fragrant Bourbon. I did buy 'Souvenir du President Lincoln' (or, at least, the rose being sold as such), but I gifted it to someone back in Buffalo. This was its second year in the ground. I'll have to find out how it did there. There's also 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' but I don't think it'll grow to be as big and "climber-ish" as the others mentioned. Vintage Gardens gives it a different growth habit, and the one I have here is doing more of a "sprawling, self-pegging" type of growth habit -- canes grow up, grow long, then bow down from their own weight, and bloom all along their length the following year. It's been very vigorous for me, coming as a band in April 2012. It finally went in the ground this Summer, and also bloomed for the first time this year. I have some pics of it below (taken with an iPhone, so pardon the less-than-stellar quality). August 2012 (four months after receiving it as a band from Vintage Gardens). Those upright canes in the pics below later bowed down on their own: April, 2013...just leafing out, one year after receiving it as a band. That one cane shooting straight up arched down like the others during Summer: Late May, 2013...first wave of blooms weren't fully double, but were fully fragrant: Mid-June, 2013...with more buds about to bloom (this wave was fully-double). Notice the cane that was straight-up is already leaning to the left: Just to the left of center, in front of the stones and behind the log edging, taken August 31, 2013, it's finally planted. It's hard to see against the leaf litter mulch, but SdVL has canes arching out to the sides and forward. In fact, the cane draping over the log-edging is actually the cane that was originally growing straight-up in the earlier pics: Another shot of SdVL, here just to the right of center (look for the white name tag with two blue patches from the cardboard under the mulch sticking up), and you can see the long canes arching out from it. The "white" flowers in the pic belong to 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' behind and to the left of it. There's one cane shooting up on SdVL now, but by next year, it will also (likely) arch down on its own: :-) ~Christopher
...See More
olga_6b
16 years ago
In my garden, MIP is stronger bush and has much better resistance to BS then MEC. Could be just difference between two bushes, of course.
Olga
cincy_city_garden
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks for the responses everybody!

Jeri, once MEC reverts back, does it stay that way? The photos on HMF of each rose looked pretty identical to me too.

Maurizio, good points for MEC if it's the same for me: more restrained growth, better rebloom, and the same great fragrance.

Olga, I definitely want the better BS resistance and vigor is always good. I don't seem to have much trouble with rust around here, more mildew and BS.

Looking forward to more opinions. I have some other roses that are the same color as MIP, so a different color is appealing, but not at the cost of less disease resistance or reduced vigor.

Thanks again,

Eric
mendocino_rose
16 years ago
In my garden Mme. Ernst is not at all restrained. She is leaping up over a ladder that we placed for her and arching over with those beautiful blooms. My husband insists that the fragrance is different from Mme. Isaac. I do think you could keep either one pruned down to a reasonable size. To me the blooms are not the same but it could be that allowing Mme. Ernst to get so large produces more but smaller blooms than Mme. Isaac. I grow mine side by side.
jerijen
16 years ago
When the blooms sport back to MIP, it's just a onesy-twosey thing. A bloom here one year, another there, next year. Never a wholesale thing. Just pleasant and interesting.

And I agree that both can be subject to mildew AND rust. At least, they are here. Not to mention some odd "Bourbon Crud."

Jeri
cincy_city_garden
Original Author
16 years ago
Hmmm, so it's sounding to me that MIP and MEC are not interchangeable, each having its own qualities other than color.

Pam, I think I may follow your example and enjoy both, can't have enough bourbons...and Jeri, I do enjoy pleasant and interesting, thanks. :)

Eric
kittymoonbeam
16 years ago
I have them both. I keep MIP as a really big bush and MEC as a climber on a trellis. Both are wonderful. Wouldn't want to have to choose between them.
paparoseman
16 years ago
Heirloom Gardens used to have both of these roses planted next to each other. Other than bloom color they were the same in all respects. Six to seven feet tall and wide with short laterals for the blooms.

Lance
cincy_city_garden
Original Author
16 years ago
I think I will plant both of them next to each other too. I'd like to get a bench arbor and put one on each side.

Dreaming of Spring.....

Eric
remy_gw
16 years ago
Hi Eric,
My MEC is not overly vigorous or overly cane hardy for me. From what I've read here over the years is that MIP is still quite vigorous in zone 6. Of course I still love my MEC, but she has never attained the growth that I anticipated. I love the foliage which retains a red coloration for a long time. I remember reading someone describing it as if some of the flower pigmentation of MIP had gone to leaves of MEC. I also love the kind of pink the flowers have, a raspberry pink. She of course smells great. She can get some black spot, but does not become defoliated sticks like a hybrid tea would at least for me.

Here is a link that might be useful:
cincy_city_garden
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks Remy, that's interesting about the foliage keeping red. I look forward to seeing how it does for me.

Eric

Related Stories

GARDENING GUIDES 6 Captivating Roses for an Alluringly Fragrant Garden

By J. Peterson Garden Design

Perfume your garden with aromas from richly spicy to lightly sweet, without sacrificing an inch of color

Sponsored

More Discussions

CCRS Rose Auction

25

So sorry Austin dumped it . . .

5

Thorns -Annie Laurie McDowell from A reverance for roses

4

A strange spring

6

ID on old Spanish Rose

4