jb, How exciting! How many weeks has it been since you sowed them?

I'm happy to report that I have actually made up my sowing mix and sowed 39 pots of seeds! I hope that after all my worrying and searching for the right ingredients that I have some success:-) All these either require a warm/cold/cool succession of temps or just warm. I have more mix and plan to sow the seeds that must go in the refrigerator right away. Then I have several that I plan to put in the cold frame in the fall and some more that just need warmth.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Idiot here. I just planted last week.

But I do have some sprouting from last year's sowing that was even later:
Allysum oviense
Veronica alpina
Ranunculus glacialis
Zigadenus elegans

And some lilies from NARGS that are hypogeal. These germinated and produced tiny bulbs last season, and are putting up their first leaves now.
Lilium martagon alba
Lilium monadelphum

Rick

Well Rick..What does that make me? I just sowed mine yesterday:-) But congratulations on last years sowing. How did you winter your lilies? I've sowed L. formosanum V. priceii and L. pumilum and was just wondering how the tiny bulbs would winter over.

Since I am such a propagation nut, I overwinter 300-500 pots, from 2.25" to 2 gallon. They are all treated the same and go in some large hardware cloth boxes, to keep mice and rabbits out. After the ground has frozen, they are covered with some blankets and a waterproof tarp for the winter. I do not water before-hand, and often loosely tarp them before the final covering to keep water off. No need for water in a closed environment for the winter. And for alpines, winter wet kill as often or more than cold temperature that can reach -35 F here.

Rick

FYI, unlike the lilies that I sprouted, both L. formosanum and L. pumilum seed will send leaves up the same season as the seed germinates.

Rick

I didn't get any this year, but I got a LOT early last year and most did really well. I have about a dozen types of arisaemas, ligularias, primulas, lewisias, dierama, cyclamen, podophylum, fritillaria, soldanella, etc. They are coming back really really great this year, most seedlings were overwintered in an unheated greenhouse and seemed to do fine that way. Can't wait until some of them bloom this year :)

Andi

I haven't got all of my seed sown yet.(got busy with school and other stuff) Of the seeds that did get sown I have Collomia grandiflora (a pretty little native annual), Echium amoenum, Penstemon murrayanus, P. pruinosis, P. confertus, and Phacelia sericea that have germinated. I'm still waiting on Allium daghestanicum and A. togashii, Delphinium luteum and D. nelsonii. I don't know a whole lot about Alliums or how/when they germinate. I also haven't had much luck with Delphiniums from seed so I'm a bit anxious about these.
As a side note; of the Penstemon fremontii that I have sown, the seed from NARGS 2004/5 year seed trade of which has been treated with Ga3 has not yet germinated, but seed purchased in 2003/4 year and sown this fall not treated with Ga3 has germinated.

Rick, that's good to know about my lilies. Thanks!

Sounds like everybody has really neat stuff coming along.

An update here. Delphinium luteum is up! yeah! Now I'm just waiting for the alliums, D. nelsonii, tonestus, and Penstemons.

I also have some questions. I've had a few seeds that have germinated and then for no apparent reason just up and withered away. Specifically poppies like, P. cluinsii, croceum, and miyabeanum. Any ideas as to what may have caused this?

I've also had some seedlings get munched on. Not sure if it's birds or bugs. I've had several Cephalaria alpina germinate only to have the tops munched off almost immediately... same with the Viola beckwithii. What are some of the ways you protect your seedlings? It just amazes me that only a select few seedlings seem to be affected while others are left unscathed.

Does anyone know how long seeds of Lilium martagon remain viable? I noticed on the ontario rock garden societies page that they are listed as seed that should be sown fresh. Two guesses as to why I'm asking this and the first one doesn't count.(me kicking myself for being such a scatterbrain)

You're right vegangirl everyone has some pretty cool stuff growing. I think it's interesting to see what folks in other parts of the country are interested in growing.

For small plants that need protection, I place the pots in a plastic "flat" that was used for storing bulbs commercially. anything with high sides would do. Then I place an old window screen over the top.

About the lily seed, the NARGS exchange seed isn't fresh, and they germinate fine. Can't help too much on the viability question, but I have succesfully germinated martagons that have been held one extra year after the exchange.

I'll bet the "plant fresh" recommendation for martagons comes from the fact(or hope) that seed will germinate that season, produce its bulb and be ready to produce foliage the next season. This would give a full season jump on seed planted in fall or the following spring.

Rick

Thanks Rick. That makes me feel a bit better about the L. martagon seeds. I've got a couple different varieties that I set out this past fall. Hopefully I'll see some action in those pots next spring.

You'll have to let me know how your Zigadenus does. I thought about adding those to my NARGS list this year but didn't. There's an area not to far from where I live that has a lot of death camas. Although, it's probably not Z. elegans. I'm going to try and collect some seed this year, if I can get out there when the seeds are ripe.

That's a roger on the Zigadenus.

When I start hypogeal germinating lily seeds, for moisture I treat them like any other seed. Once that period is over with, say 3-4 weeks,I put the pots with other growing things and water at the same time as the others. In other words, I quit with the extra care given to germinating seeds. There have been times when the lily pots have dried completely over the summer, but it hasn't seemed to bother them. After all, there is no foliage to support.

Rick

Sagebrushred, congrats on your D luteum! Too bad about the ones that withered and got eaten. I know chipmunks will eat seedlings. I've seen it happen. I sowed P. miyabeanum too.

I sowed 40 more pots last week. I put a flat of 10 pots in the refrigerator and I have several that need 2-4 weeks of warm than 4 weeks of cool. I think I'll get DD's dorm frige out for those since I'm short on room in the big house frige.

I need to go check mine and see if anything is up:-)

Sagebrushred, I have the same problem of seedlings withering, specifically Astillboides tabularis, Papver, Digitalis, and yes - Delphinium. The poppies do well if I get them in the ground ASAP - before they even get a first set of true leaves. I didn't have much luck setting out the others in the nursery bed, but ones that were individually potted are doing well.

I'm wondering if these particular plants emit a chemical to inhibit competitors, the result being a poisoned seedling pot. I've noticed that the withering starts from the center of the container and works its way to the edges.

Next year, I'll sow these particular seeds individually (or very thinly) and see if that helps matters any.

Rick, about your hardware cloth boxes, do you also put the hardware cloth on the bottom of the box? Are the pots you overwinter seeds, seedlings, or mature plants? If I sowed all my penstemons and overwintered the pots in hardware cloth boxes, would that work or do they need to be in cold frame that gets covered and stays a bit warmer?

Jeanne,
I'll wager you're thinking too hard. If the middle of your pots are where seedlings are most crowded, the symtom you describe-withering starts from the center of the container and works its way to the edges-is classic for damping off disease, or nearly any disease for that matter. Your hypothesis of chemical inhibitors, might be true for one or two species, genera or families(who really knows?), but I doubt it could be true for all those different seedlings. I can't imagine so many species evolving such a fuel consuming task as producing such chemicals, when the real task at hand is just staying alive! On the other hand, there is that other hypothesis that seems to always hold true-"stranger than fiction."

Vegangirl,
Yes, hardware cloth on all sides, including the bottom. I also have shelves for the smaller pots. For the things I can, I set flats right on top of another. The larger pots I just stack or lay right on top of each other.

There is only one thing I do not put in my wire boxes for winter; I have learned through experience that newly rooted cuttings are quite fragile in this respect. If I have any of these, I keep then in the refrigerator over winter. If I ever have any, I would put newly germinated seeds in the frig too. Unrooted cuttings winter just fine outside. Dormant seeds are always much hardier than the corresponding mature plants, so you never have to worry about that.

I don't know why a covered cold frame would be necessarily warmer, except that it would be in the sun. And that right there sends up a red flag in my book. The purpose of my covering is to keep the cold in, and moderate the extreme cold temps. Consequently it is place in winter shade. Having the sun beating on even a covered frame just doesn't sound good to me. How warm is it getting? How would you know? Anytime something is covered and gets near or above freezing, you risk mold. A lot of alpines are completely intolerant of this, like Delosperma(Ice Plants). Others not so much. But why risk it? However, I have never used a cold frame for this purpose, so this is all speculation. I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this.

Rick

Rick, thanks for the details. I think I got these instructions from Tom Clothier's web site. I don't know where he lives. Anyway whoever it is, said they put their penstemons on containers in Dec and keep them outside under a floating row cover all winter. Then they usually sprout the following spring/summer when temps warm up to 70. But the detailed instructions for different species say 8 or 12 weeks at 40 degrees, and some need light for germination. Maybe this person, (Mr Clothier?) lives in Britain because our winters here get much colder than 40 degrees. So I don't know if this method would work for me. I thought it would be much eaiser than keeping them in the frige for the required weeks.

I have a coldframe full of plants from rooted cuttings and a few started from seed, but I never did put the cover (a glass patio door) on it all winter so it wasn't a great deal warmer but it does seem to be a bit warmer because the plants in the cold frame started growing before the same types of plants out in the open. And the phlox subulata cuttings started blooming a little ahead of the parent plant in the open ground. We just built another cold frame and have had the cover ON all the time with a thermometer in there. When it's in the 50's outside, it can easily be 120 in the closed coldframe! It faces south. It has no plants in it yet BTW.
We'll have to do some experimenting with it.

Rick, I probably am thinking too hard. I sow my seeds outdoors and don't usually have a problem with damping off, but I'm sure it's a possibility. Perhaps those particular genera are more susceptable. I do find that getting them out of a communal pot as soon as possible greatly increases the chance of getting healthy plants in the long run.

I have seeds sprouting!! Alpine asters, semiaquilegia, silene schafta. I will put the pots of pulsatillas in the refrigerator today.

Jeanne I've also had that problem with my digitalis and campanulas as well. Although mine all seem to disappear at the same time, it's not a gradual decline. I'll be potting up the delphiniums, poppies and digitalis plants as soon as they look big enough to handle. I have read that Astragalus seed may exhibit alleopathic tendencies... although I've got three varieties that are proving to be the exception to this rule. There always seems to be the exception doesn't there.

As I've been reading through the posts again I'm beginning to suspect that it's the north-westerly(more westerly than north) exposure of the enclosure that I have the seeds in that may be to blame. Well... that coupled with the wildly fluctuating temperatures the seeds are exposed to. I noticed that Rick, you say that you're plants/seeds are in a shaded northerly position. I would suspect this helps keep things from becoming active too early in the season. That along with the waterproof cover. When do you remove the cover?

Congrats Vegangirl! If you get your pulsatillas to germinate you'll have to give me some pointers. I sowed two varieties this year and I've got nothin coming up.

Also, thanks Rick for the mention of the after care of the L. martagon seeds/seedlings. I've been wondering just how to handle some of the bulbs that I've started. I have a couple of Calochortus that I know appreciate a dry summer dormancy, but there are a couple others like the lilies that I'm not as familiar with.

Things have really started to pop this last week. I've got pots that are burstin at the seams. Luckily my DH has been potting these up individually for me. I'm just now starting to realise the magnitude of plants that I will be dealing with this spring/summer.(me rolling my eye's and shaking my head as I swear never to do this again) I've had approximately 200 varieties of seed germinate so far. I've had a couple of the seeds that germinated and died, germinate this past week.(still had some seed in those pots) This has me thinking about how to handle the watering of all of these plants. I'm going to buy some colored labels so I can color code the pots by their watering needs. Then I'm trying to decide whether I want to bottom water(flood irrigate) or set up an over head system. How do you guys water your seedlings?

It's now been about 5 weeks since sowing and 14 of the 36 have germinated. Some may never germinate and some may need another winter to get the right conditions.

Some I probably sowed incorrectly. None of hte acquilegia have sprouted. I think they are under a too thick layer of chicken grit and are not getting the light requirement. I followed the directions to sprinkle the chicken grit and then the seeds on top of that, but the seeds are so tiny they immediately fell through the chicken grit chinks. I have many acquilegia in teh garden and those seedlings have sprouted like crazy.

I have been in italy for the last three weeks. Fabulous time. Won't bore you with the details. Just go.

jb

jb, Italy..wow! Did you visit any gardens?

I have at least one Aquilegia sprouting but I don't remember which one. Several other things too. I'll have to check and make a list to post.

To Sagebrushred: I am growing Delphinium luteum, too! I hope it's winter hardy.

We did visit a few gardens in Villas. They were...well very large gardens tended by someone that didn't own it and were beautiful if a bit boring. Next time we go we want to seek out the smaller more personal gardens.

One thing about italy is that almost everywhere you look people are growing things. Almost everyone has a veggie garden with carricoffi (artichokes) and grapes. Along the railways you see one garden after another backed right up to the tracks. It is a very green and verdant land.

Deffinitely looking forward to going back.

Ciao,
jb

I always enjoy seeing what people are growing in other places:-) I'm sure the personal gardens would be more interesting.

Here's what has sprouted so far:
Aster alpinus, several colors
Campanula barbata, two colors
Erigeron, two sps
Erinus alpinus
Lilium formosanum var. priceii
Primula denticulata
Primula japonica
Scabiosa columbaria
Semiaquilegia ecalcarata

I'm not sure when to separate them into different pots. Any suggestions?

Don't know what to give for advice, but I do know it varies. Even within our Chapter, some do it as early (on some things) as the first true leaves barely mature. Other prefer to leave just a few seedlings grow in a 4" pot and wait much later. Because I don't grow under lights and usually start them very late (sometime in May) according to the norm, I rarely even transplant the first season. (Don't fertilize either, and we do have a shorter growing season in Minnesota). Consequently by starting earlier and fertilizing, there are people in my Chapter that easily grow in one season what may take me two or even three seasons. (What can I say, I am just stupid.)

BTW, the fertilizing is only done while in the pot to push size, so until the plants are put in the ground, they are uncharacteristically open and soft, unlike a real alpine plant.

Rick

Thanks, Rick. Only a couple of things have true leaves. My Lilium formosanum seedling doesn't look very happy. It's browning at the tip. I have everything under lights in the basement and am keeping that room about 65 degrees. Could there be too much light or heat?

What kind of light are you using? If it is flourescent (preferred), there is no way there could be too much light. Keep the tubes right on top of the seedlings. Almost touching is fine. 65 degrees should be perfect. If you are able to lower the night temps that would be better, and as much as 10 degrees if you can.

If you are using incandescent light (regular light bulbs or spotlights, including grow light spots) you might be too close depending on the wattage. This light puts out a lot of heat. But if the other seedlings are not brown tipping, that is not the problem.

Anyway, I'd be growing them outside now. Nothing beats real sun and good air circulation. But of course now you'll have to ween them off of the indoor environment and into the outside real environment(and in shade at first).

Sometimes my first year lily seedlings don't keep their foliage all through the summer. Not that it is a good thing, but you're not alone. Still, they have always come back the next season. However even those have at least a month outside before "dormancy".

Rick

Rick, I'm using flourescent lights set just at the tops of my plant labels, probably 2 inches from the seedlings. I think I'll go ahead and get them outside and see what happens. I'll have to protect them from all the rain somehow too! Thanks for the info.
vg