Own root Floribundas, Grandifloras & Hybrid Teas?

10 years ago

What Floribunda, Grandiflora and Hybrid Tea roses grow well own root? This appears to be a persistent question that never seems to be adequately answered. I suspect the ugly truth is very few. I know for example that only one or two Hybrid Perpetuals grow well own root (Baronne Prevost for example) and the Hybrid Teas in particular seem to have inherited this weakness. Soil is also a consideration. Heavy clay soil seems to be hard on own root roses. I think the same may be true for sandy soil In Florida with its nematode problem. In any case with more and more gardeners moving towards easier care own root shrub roses I think it worth taking the effort to compile a list of the few roses in these three classes that do grow well on their own roots.

I'll start. My experience with Hybrid Teas is mostly limited to grafted plants but I do recall the lavender Grandiflora LAGERFELD did fairly well growing on its own roots in zone 7b (provided it was sprayed to control black spot). I've heard similar reports for the Tom Carruth roses like Julia Child and Wild Blue Yonder. In previous threads Double Delight and Firefighter were also mentioned. All of these are very fragrant.

DOUBLE DELIGHT (hybrid tea, 1977): strawberry vanilla swirl
FIREFIGHTER (hybrid tea, 1998): dark red, lighter reverse*
JULIA CHILD (floribunda, 2004): golden yellow
LAGERFELD (grandiflora, 1986): silvery lavender
WILD BLUE YONDER (grandiflora, 2004): lavender tipped rouge

* canes only have few thorns

Image of Firefighter by Sara-Ann at the Let Freedom Ring thread.

Featured Answer

sara_ann-z6bok

10 years ago

This is a picture of my own root hybrid tea Big Momma. I believe that is the only way this rose is available. It is a very healthy and disease resistant rose. I have several other hybrid teas and grandifloras that seem to be doing well own root: Fragrant Memory, Love, Dick Clark and Royal Highness.

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Comments (25)

User
10 years ago
The ones I have that do very well own-root:

'Lemon Spice' (HT, 1966), yellow
'Fred Howard' (HT, 1952), yellow blend
"Lundy's Lane Yellow" (HT, found)
'Barcelona' (aka 'Francis Dubreuil', HT, 1932), dark red
'Poulsen's Yellow' (Floribuna, 1938)
'J. Otto Thilow' (HT, 1927), medium pink
'Gruss an Coburg' (HT, 1927), apricot
"Zalud House Shingled Raspberry" (found HT), medium pink
'Diamond Jubilee' (HT, 1947), yellow

'Ulrich Brunner Fils' is a Hybrid Perpetual (intense cerise) that is extremely vigorous on its own roots here. Bushy and grows to 7 or 8' by the end of the summer every year though I cut it back to 3 or 4' every winter.

My other eight or so own-root hybrid teas and floribundas are slow on their own roots though making steady enough progress. A few I have tried had a fatal encounter with Mr. Shovel due to failure to make progress. I have only one grafted plant in the whole garden, 'Just Joey', which is immense (7' x 8').
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User
10 years ago
'Snowbird' (HT, 1936) is also good on its own roots.
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Own-root vs grafted makes no difference in the hardiness of the rose above the ground. Since they will die back pretty much to the soil line unless you do some sort of winter protection, and are in a climate where winter protection is effective, what matters is vigor. Understocks provide vigor. If you are having trouble with the roses completely dying off, instead of failing to thrive, either you like yellow :-), or the bud unions aren't ending up deep enough. Burying the bud union is el cheapo winter protection that works. However, I have found around here it can be difficult to convince people of that because of the general rule to plant a potting plant at the level it is growing in the pot. Potted roses are usually planted very high to make as much room as possible in the pot for the roots. It is then up to the buyer to understand that the entire contraption has to then be buried. Here, even when the winters were much, much colder, I've had little trouble getting hybrid teas to survive winter. The problem has always come getting that little speck of life to amount to anything. I like big roses that produce a lot of flowers, and a hybrid tea just isn't going to do that around here.
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Jasper, a lot about how vigorous they'll be is climate and soil dependent. I grew MANY of them in my old Newhall, CA garden. You may browse the list of what went through that garden in its eighteen year existence at the link below. I propagated MANY roses, to the tune of a few thousand, literally, over the many years I volunteered at The Huntington Library propagating roses. From my experience propagating them, growing many of them, working with them in the gardens at The Huntington and observing them in public and private gardens all over California, I found those which were introduced prior to the mid 1920s generally grow well own root, with a few exceptions, as many of them were originally sold own root. Ease of rooting and growing own root were prime criteria for selecting which roses were to be introduced. It wasn't until around that time that the American market shifted away from own root to budding. Those of that era considered "vigorous" in the publications of their time make good garden plants where they are suited to the soil and climate. Weaker growers can be improved by budding, but weak is weak, no matter what. You have to keep in mind that very few of them are going to be as husky, vigorous or full as many of the later types. Though many were decent for their time, it wasn't until the introduction of Peace and its influence on breeding that plants resembling more of what we know today began to be considered the "norm". Most of the older cultivars aren't as well foliated, nor do most grow as dense and full. You have to view them with eyes appropriate to their vintage. There were exceptions to all the rules, just as there are now, but for the most part, nothing from the 1920s will be as husky, dense and full as something from the 30s, 40s, 50s and later. Each decade, the bar was raised concerning health, vigor, bloom production, etc. and if you wander around a collection planted by decade, you can easily see what I mean. Radiance, introduced in 1908, was surely initially offered own root. Eclipse, introduced in 1935, was initially offered budded. Radiance will still make a substantially better (more in keeping with 21st Century eyes expectations) own root plant than Eclipse. Once budding was the standard method of propagation, it didn't matter how well a variety rooted, nor how well it grew own root. That wasn't a consideration of their selection processes. That doesn't mean those introduced later won't root or won't grow well own root, but many which were, aren't as good or as easy own root as earlier types are. The four you ask about are all Nineteenth Century introductions, quite a distance from when budding became the standard production method. As long as they are happy with your soil, climate and culture types, I would expect them to perform acceptably own root for you. I would suggest, if they aren't already mature plants to pot them, growing them on until they are what you would expect from a canned, bud and bloom size plant before putting them in the ground. Young, own root plants are literally "infants" and benefit greatly from some time canned to mature and build the energy and momentum they'll need for being planted in the ground. In that old mid desert garden, I always grew new plants on in five gallon nursery cans until they were large and established enough for planting out. It made worlds of difference in their performance. Kim Here is a link that might be useful: A Hidden Sanctuary rose list
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JJpeace - we got off track and didn't respond to your question about whether everything but climbers and ramblers should be pruned back to the ground to encourage growth. I would actually advise the opposite in cold zones, since you want as much healthy cane as you can get to regrow the rose in the spring, particularly in HTs and floris where this is unlikely in zone 5 to start with. Think of the canes of roses after winter as batteries for the rose. It's stored energy that helps to jumpstart growth in the spring, and provides a lot more growth points for new canes to start from and grow larger in the season, rather than always having to restart from the ground each year. That's also the reason we aren't usually advised to pre-prune the roses in winter for cold zones, since many roses lose the ends of their canes to winter but will maintain some live cane halfway down if you keep as much of the original cane as possible. Wait till spring to prune, and then only as much as is dead or dying cane unless it's a particularly robust grower, in cold zones. Plenty of roses CAN regrow from the ground each year if necessary, but why make them do so if it's not needed? Some roses are too wimpy to regrow from the ground if they don't have surviving cane, and I don't want to risk it if it's not necessary. In warmer zones it may be necessary to do a more drastic prune periodically to take out old underperforming canes that are past their best life but that so rarely happens in our HTs and floris in zone 5 that it's not a good practice to rely on. The winter already kills off most of the canes anyway, so I celebrate and keep any healthy cane I can for as long as I can. The battery analogy also explains an odd pattern of growth you can get in roses that look like they've survived the winter but really haven't. You can get a rose to leaf out in the spring and then all of a sudden within a week or so die never to return in later spring. What may happen is that the stored energy in the canes was enough to jumpstart a little growth (i.e. battery operated power) but there wasn't enough root support or health in the canes below your new growth to sustain that growth (not enough gas in the tank). Hope that helps Cynthia
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Pink Enchantment, is it a hybrid tea or a grandiflora?
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Lilyfinch, Sorry, my camera skills do not exist...never been able to take a decent picture in my life except for two times, 26 years ago. The photo of Pink Enchantment at Heirloom Roses shows a bloom that is just about as good as the best ones my bush has produced...ice cream dessert looking kind of flower, very appealing. During the heat of summer the pink center is much paler. There is a shot of a large bed of PE on HMFR under its photo subject index. I will tell you, Pink Enchantment's foliage growth pattern is just like that of the HT, Memorial Day, with shortish leaves having tightly arranged, normal sized leaflets. The entire leaves droop naturally. You can see it in Ashley's photo above. They are not wilting as you might think. This trait annoys me slightly, but the other redeeming points of Pink Enchantment outweigh this slight negative. There is also a better than medium fragrance, but not strong. I would give it a try, especially since Chamblee's stocks it at a most reasonable price. It is also ADR which means vigor, disease and winter hardiness are pretty high. Moses
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Maude80
10 years ago
Several years ago, I planted Dick Clark own root. I ordered it from roses unlimited and now it is over 6 feet tall and the largest rose bush I have. I can't say if it's a fluke, but it's certainly been very vigorous for me.

I have quite a few hybrid teas that I grow own root, but I don't know any of their names because they were all cuttings from florist roses. I've found though, that if you have very well prepared soil with lots of organic matter, just about anything will do well..
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jacqueline9CA
10 years ago
I have an own root Cl Peace - I know it is because it is from a cutting I took from the old bush (which was rooted on Dr. Huey - I know because I kept having to get rid of the suckers). It just got planted last Spring, it has not bloomed yet but has put out 4 healthy 4-5 ft long canes so far, so I think it is doing fine. I will let you know next Spring how it does blooming.

Jackie
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ratdogheads z5b NH
10 years ago
I have a 3 year old o.r Blueberry Hill which is doing well. Small but happy.
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User
10 years ago
Pardon my ignorance, but for whatever reason I thought ownroot HT/HPS do just fine in warm climate. It is mostly an issue for colder zones.

Not sure if Belinda's. Dream is HT or shrub, but my ownroot is very vigorous here in my Northern NJ garden and rebounded nicely from the polar vortex. I bet it does much better in warmer zones though
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kstrong
10 years ago
As I look around and through my plant collection of Florries, Hybrid Teas and Grandifloras, I have to say that the ones that are doing the best in my collection are all grafted on various rootstocks -- mostly Dr. Huey but also Fortuniana and Multiflora. I'm having a hard time coming up with any to recommend to you in these classes that are both "own root" and growing vigorously here in So Cal.
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AquaEyes 7a NJ
10 years ago
All but one of my own-root HTs are pot-pets -- I personally don't like their plant shapes in the garden, so they get pampered for the sake of their blooms. The one in the ground is 'Lemon Spice' and I'm regretting where I planted it, and will put it in a pot as well next Spring. The others varied in their vigor -- generally, the older the HT, the less vigorous was the growth. But mine are all of a particular genre not known for being the healthiest of roses -- very fragrant dark-red or crimson HTs, ranging in age from 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' 1908 to 'Velvet Fragrance' 1988.

Oh, and about the HPs not doing well own-root -- this will definitely be on a case-by-case basis. My 'Yolande d'Aragon' reached over 8' tall this year. 'Reine des Violettes' hit 5' tall. 'Pierre Notting' is still only about 3' tall, but I expected it to be a slow starter, and it finally started making a fat cane this year. 'Monsieur Boncenne' is at least 4' tall. 'Paul Neyron' went from less than a foot tall in Spring to over 5' tall now. All came as own-root bands in Spring 2013, and were planted in the ground by August 2013.

:-)

~Christopher
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User
10 years ago
Well, farmerduck, I can vouch for some own-root HTs, etc. not doing well even in a warmer climate. Many varieties seem to lack vigor to their very core ('Duquesa de Penaranda', for example, and the climbing tea 'Marechal Niel') and often, when dug up, don't have much in the way of roots, either. These seem to need rootstock to survive or thrive.

Others are just slow, own-root ("Hoag House Cream", 'Etoile de Feu' in my experience), but eventually "get there".

Still others are so vigorous ('Ulrich Brunner Fils', 'Diamond Jubilee', and 'Fred Howard' come immediately to mind), that you wonder why anyone would think they needed grafting.

I have fought pitched and nasty battles with 'Dr. Huey' in my mother's garden, plus most of the roses I desire are only available own-root, so my trend has been own-root. I am, however, planning on learning how to graft my own, and have acquired a 'Fortuniana' stock plant to that end. I hope that then some of these slow, older HTs, etc. that are so charming (but unavailable commercially as grafted plants) may be possible for me.

I had own-root 'Belinda's Dream' and found it about average or a bit better in vigor here (but above average in PM, among other things, so off she went).

By the way, 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' (HT, 1910) also does well own-root (this one I always mentally classify as a tea, so I forgot to list her before).
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buford
10 years ago
catspa, I am going to try that as well. Many southern rosarians swear by fort, especially exhibitors. I have a fort plant (well, it used to be Touch of Class....) so I have just put up a bunch of cuttings to root. I've never grafted before, so I don't think I will have much success, but it will be fun. I had my very new Playboy break down to the roots in the wind we had this week. It's own root, so I think it will come back. But with the parts that broke off, I am going to root as well and try to graft. Plus some other roses I have that don't do well, even grafted on Dr. Huey. I just have to decide if I want to spend $80 on a grafting knife.
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Alana8aSC
10 years ago
Hey! All my HP are doing fine own root. The other's groups of roses kinda didn't, save hannah gorden, playboy, and a few other's who's names have escaped me ATM. BTW Double delight and angel face didn't do well for me own root.

This post was edited by Alana7bSC on Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 11:57
vasue VA
10 years ago
Established own root roses here mainly fall into the shrub & climber categories. Bands mid-Summer last year & gallons this Spring of the types you mention still growing along in pots & not yet planted out, so will wait to see how they do once they've been in the garden a few seasons. (Storm damaged the roof & the garden area they're intended for will be needed temporarily for access to tear off & re-roof any day now. Been busy potting up the garden for protection rather than planting!) Hybrid tea Aloha & her sport Dixieland Linda/Lady Ashe grow & bloom well. They're both tall bushes or climbers & about 8'x8' after 8 years without pruning, arriving as gallons, but believe they could easily be kept to typical grandiflora proportions if desired. Both are healthy no spray & bloom generously early to late with great form & fragrance. New buds mature at staggered rates to give the effect of continual bloom. Westerland is another climber/shrub with floribunda parents that's done well. It's listed on HMF as growing 5-12', can also be grown free-standing, and may be kept to grandiflora size with pruning. Same goes for its sports - Autumn Sunset & Lemon Meringue - and all three rebloom rapidly & abundantly with fragrant flowers. All of these have the larger bloom size associated with the classes you mention, from 4-5".

Heavy clay can be a challenge, but it's often rich in minerals. This land was woodlot for a farm for 100+ years, and where it was undisturbed by construction, is nice & loamy after such a long run of natural composting. Near the house is another story. Dug those beds by hand to subsoil onto tarps, broke up the clumps & mixed the compacted native clay 50/50 with a trucked-in blend of half topsoil, half leaf compost, amended with gypsum, and refilled the beds. Fallen oak leaves serve as Winter mulch over compost put down Fall & Spring. After that reconstruction & maintenance, plants suitable for this climate have little trouble getting established. Now that armies of worms till & aerate the soil these many years, nothing else has needed to be added. Sort of a once & done approach. Compost, gypsum & chicken grit (if your soil doesn't already have small pebbles) are very helpful to change heavy clay into a more hospitable medium.

Great thread! Also curious to see which varieties do well own root, as that's become my preference.
dublinbay z6 (KS)
10 years ago
I also would question whether Double Delight does well own root. I'm sure it does all right, but well? Mine at least seemed to need that extra boost it got from being grafted.

Since I bury my grafts, it is hard for me to remember if there are any non-grafted ones out there. I planted them a number of years ago. But I do know that if my Gypsy Carnival is not grafted, it ought to be--what a wimp (but with the most beautiful blooms).

In truth, I suspect all my HTs, grandifloras, and floribundas probably are grafted.

Kate
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User
10 years ago
Mrs. Oakley Fisher (HT, 1921, single apricot) is wonderful own-root, here and everywhere I have seen her.
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leezen4u
10 years ago
HT - Frederic Mistral
HT - Lasting Love (grown in a pot)
FLOR - Livin' EZ
FLOR - Icebergs white, pink, Climber
FLOR - Julia Child

Lee
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kittymoonbeam
10 years ago
Memorial Day, Radox Bouquet, virus free French Lace from Vintage, Pink Parfait, Pink Rosette, Frances Meilland, Pope John Paul II (took time to get going and then was spectacular) and Eternal Flame. I had a great own root Lemon Spice, I moved it and it perished. The new own root is going along slowly. Why why why did I ever move that plant?
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Patty W. zone 5a Illinois
10 years ago
I have some not sure they are your type of rose. All of my roses are own root and they do well here in northern Illinois. None are winter protected and all are grown no spray.
Julia Child - Dies to the ground here after winter. Comes with good vigor. Used to black spot every year in the yard. Finally moved it to the empty lot been clean as a whistle ever since. Go figure! They don't even get fertilizer out there. 10 plus years here
Cream Veranda - Dies to crown - very robust - continuous bloom - disease free - 8 years
These next few have not been in the yard as long but I'm quite sure they will continue to do well. Not sure what their listed as but they bloom like floribundas so I'll list them.
Sparkle n Shine
Yellow Submarine
Music Box - beautiful bush, good vigor but I don't care for blooms that quill.
Grandma's Blessing - This one I've had forever great own root grandiflora
Have three red Kordes roses. Two have floribunda growth and bloom habits.
Kardinal Kolorscape and Milano Kolorscape - Both true rich reds no orange tones or blueing. Vigorous, continuous bloom gorgeous bushes. Waited a life time for true red, vigorous, no spray, own root, gorgeous hunk of bush to come along and it finally did. WOO HOO!
kstrong
10 years ago
Hey Buford -- fugetabout the $80 grafting knife (unless you're planning to go into the biz of grafting). A box cutter with a new blade from the dollar store works fine for that for me. Really -- just a box cutter with a good blade is all you need, especially to get started on your practice.

It is practice you need, not a special knife. You're first several attempts will likely not take, but just keep at it, and don't blame the blade. You'll eventually get the process up and running, but it does take a steady hand. The only person I know who got it going from the first tries was a surgeon. But I got it working after several rounds of attempts.

Here is a link that might be useful: chip budding video
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melissa_thefarm
10 years ago
I hardly grow any roses in these classes, but the old HT 'Mme. Jules Bouche' is very very good and very easy own root. She looks and acts a lot like a Tea and that may be why. Mediterranean climate, zone 8, good average rainfall, clay soil. Also I see 'Queen Elizabeth' around quite often, and suspect that at least some of the plants are passalongs from cuttings.
Melissa
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Jasminerose, California, USDA 9b/Sunset 18
10 years ago
Molineux:
I've read that FIREFIGHTER doesn't do much of anything until its third year, but mine didn't make it through its first. It wasn't vigorous and one long heat wave of over 100 degrees did it in. I replaced it with OLYMPIAD which is surprisingly fragrant for me, despite reports otherwise. Other than my climbers, my SAINT PATRICK HT is my most vigorous own-root plant and my TEQUILA SUPREME FL seems very happy on its own roots.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tequila Supreme (Jean Cocteau) on HMF

This post was edited by jasminerose4u on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 11:34
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nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
10 years ago
Well, considering how much a fan of own-root roses here in my cold zone, this was an eye-opening exercise. I went through my entire alphabetical list of 800 or so roses, a majority of which are flori/HT/grandiflora roses, and noted any that I considered excellent on own roots. It turns out a lot of outstanding bloomers that I vaguely had considered floris or HTs were actually shrubs, and many of my best HTs were in fact grafted. Dang. I have a bad survival rate with bare root roses, but it looks like I should be cautious with the HT own root roses on a second round. My impression was that the floribundas weren't particularly bothered by being own root and very few of mine were grafted, but by far my best bloomers among the HTs tended to be the grafted ones. Who knew??

Here's my list of the definite prolific or otherwise robust roses in these categories:

Floribunda: - prolific
Bolero
Floral Fairy Tale
LavaGlut
Mandarin Ice
Grand Duc Henri
Occhi di Fata
Pinocchio
Suni
Louisa Stone/Guinevere
Pillow Talk
Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale
Impatient
Roman Holiday
Alice Pat
Champagne Moment
Bad Worishofen/Pink Emely
Eutin
Hot Cocoa

HTs
Beverly
Francis Dubreuil
Cubana
Comtesse de Segur
Dames de Chenonceau
Acropolis
Aloha
Headliner
Nigrette (no worse than it would do grafted)
Papageno
Lafter
Maid of Honor
Spiced Coffee
Golden Buddha
Birthday Girl

Grandif Ã¯Â¿Â½"
Paloma Blanca
Paw Maw
Lagerfeld
Earth Song (extremely well)
Mother of Pearl

I ended up needing an honorable mention for the HTs, with roses that are robust and vigorous growers, but not terribly prolific or frequent rebloomers. I figure that can be true of any of the HTs and it wouldn't depend on them grafted or not, so for what it's worth here are the good HTs on own roots, for me:

Peggy Rockefeller
Karl Herbst
Intermezzo (surprisingly hardy for a lavender Dot rose)
Neptune
Henri Matisse
Careless Love
Charlotte Brownell
Harry G Hastings
Madame Delbard
Break oÃ¢ÂÂDay
Sophisticate

I agree that Double Delight is a very weak grower under any circumstances, but virtually microscopic if own root (and I've tried several times). It refuses to die before lingering several years, but never thrives own root.

Cynthia
buford
10 years ago
Thanks kstrong. First I have to see if my fort cuttings will take root.

Also, I went to a society meeting last night, and as usually came home with a rose, an own root Cinco de Mayo. We shall see how it does.
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seil zone 6b MI
10 years ago
Interesting results, Cynthia. I think by nature and growth habit HTs are not generally known for being prolific bloomers. They bloom in flushes and those take time to generate and in order to come up with those nice longer stems for cutting we associate with HTs sometimes that's a long time. They also bloom singly to a stem for the most part. So they don't have the more full, covered in blooms look of the classes that bloom in clusters.

As for grafted or own root you have to remember that all of the older HTs were never, ever tested own root. Own root wasn't really a commercial option until recently so breeders never tested them that way. They were bred to BE grafted. So a lot of those roses are very weak growers on their own roots. Of course not all of them, because just by the odds some of them would be good growers, but a lot of them are weaklings. There's probably a good chance that a lot of the floribundas and grandifloras from that time are weak on their own roots too but they have different growing habits that make it less noticeable. If those roses were coming out today they'd be tested under some very different criteria and probably would never make it to market. Think of all the lovely roses we'd never have if that were the case. Roses like Double Delight and Peace may never have been marketed and that would indeed be a sad thing. Grafting isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
10 years ago
Seil - I agree that HTs aren't known for being prolific bloomers, which is why I gave many of them the benefit of the doubt. My own root Madame Delbard is every bit as good (bad?) a bloomer as grafted Veteran's Honor in the same bed, and both are stiff upright narrow roses with a few blooms at the ends of the canes every few weeks. On the other hand, at least two of my top most impressive, well-branched prolific bloomers are grafted HTs - Anne Henderson and Savoy Hotel. I don't know what they'd be like on their own roots, but it's enough to make me rethink my hesitations about grafted plants. I just feel so bad for the poor things as I tend to lose a good fourth of my grafted plants in their first summer from what I'm presuming is verticilium wilt, much less those that don't survive the winters. Still, there are plenty of lovely shrubs and OGRs that I still want own-root to leave choices for the HTs in the grafted plants.

And yes, if we didn't have grafting many wonderful roses would be sadly missing from our world. There are already too many roses that have disappeared, so having a variety of ways to keep them alive over time is always a good thing. Let's hope we still keep experts able to graft roses commercially for the foreseeable future!

Cynthia

Own root Floribundas, Grandifloras & Hybrid Teas?

sara_ann-z6bok

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