So at any point did you do a soil analysis?

My lawn care company did one for our grass this spring.

No noticeable deficiencies, at least in the surrounding lawn.

It is definitley chlorotic-no doubt.

Thanks!

Cathyann

Chlorosis in things like red maple, at least here in the Midwestern U.S., is nearly always caused by a deficiency of iron and/ or manganese in the tree.

So why didn't your iron application work? My educated guess is that there is already plenty of iron in the soil. but that due to a too-high soil pH, this mineral is unavailable to the tree.

That is why sulfur was one recommendation offered by the garden center people. They know that soil application of this element will gradually bring down the soil pH to a point at which the tree can acquire the minerals it needs. If you have any capability at all, you should be able to apply this material yourself. It is no different than applying a ferilizer to the area the tree is growing in. You will need to treat outwards from the trunk to at least a bit beyond the dripline of the tree.

Sourcing this stuff, simply known as soil sulfur, may be the hard part. Up here, I get it at farm co-ops and the like. Cheap and easy to use, it is slow-acting, so don't expect a rapid turnaround. For that you need to be using battery acid (It is actually done!) but you don't want to mess with that.

+oM

It almost impossible to lower the PH in soils. The high PH may caused by over watering

The pH can be lowered in soils. The problem will be the surrounding grass. There is a happy medium, however, depending on species or cultivars of grass, and increasing the mulched area around the tree.

All input appreciated!

Here is a link that might be useful:

I can't agree with Tmores' statement regarding soil pH adjustment. If he/she had said "It is hard to permanently change soil pH", I would have agreed. I didn't get into this in my initial response, as I've said much the same many times here before, but, since it applies here as well, here goes: Many soils have what is known as buffering capacity. This feature of said soil causes it to revert back to its' old pH over time. But........although this buffering capacity does make it impractical to adjust (Lower, in this case) soil pH over a large area, for one or a few trees in someones yard, it is not beyond reason to do so. You will simply have to reapply the sulfur every few years.

I also don't think overwatering typically leads to a too-high soil pH. The reverse is often true. Unless underlain by limestone bedrock, like where I live, and I think you as well, the rainfall in most of the E. U.S. is sufficient to leach cations-minerals such as calcium and magnesium-down to below the rooting zone of plants. So everything else being equal, higher rainfall, or watering generally causes a drop in pH. But....one way in which this second statement could be true is if the water used on the plants itself has a very high pH. This is exactly the case in this city, the tap water being generally pH 8.5 or above. That is very alkaline and WILL exacerbate any too-high pH issues you may be having.

Give it a go with the sulfur. I think you will be delighted with the results.

+oM

I'm having a less drastic problem with a red maple in my yard, but I do note that I have a similarly acidic-soil loving red oak which is thriving (and then some).

the difference is that the red oak is in the half of my yard I completely roto-tilled with tons of mushroom compost & better soil, as it was just atrocious when we bought the house.

ironically, the half of my yard that appeared to be healthy when we moved in is now the part where weeds are taking over and the maple is just doing OK.

so last fall I raked into the soil a good 200 lb of mushroom compost, in/around the tree's canopy area, and I definitely have seen an improvement this year.

I'll add more compost this year when it cools down a bit and I don't need to mow the yard so often, I figure it's not only god for the maple but also is good for the yard's health overall.

good luck, please tell us how it goes!

My neighbor has a red maple growing in caliche soil so you can imagine the pH is quite high and for the first two years, it had suffered badly. I suggested that they apply generous amount of greensand around the tree followed by compost and mulch. Last year, it was much better looking with a lot of rain which no doubt helped a lot as the tap water is already very alkaline (we live on limestone bedrock). This past spring, they applied more greensand, compost and mulch. While it didn't grow as much due to very dry and hot summer, it remained very healthy. I can't say the same for the rest of red maple trees in this neighborhood. The only other maples that are doing great is shantung maple and Bigtooth maple (Texas sugar maple).

Mushroom compost tends to be alkaline so....

hmm, that's interesting on the mushroom compost, I didn't think about its PH as that's what the nursery recommended & it does seem to be working, so I'm stumped!

I am on several forums getting all sorts of opinions which is great!

More pics......hopefully.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:424388}}

anyone have any suggestions on a specific sulfur product to use?

I see Tom mentioned "soil sulfur," but I assume that's a generic description, so I imagining if I just go to a nursery they can take it from there?

I purchased Espoma Organic Traditions Garden Sulfur at my local nursery. Says "all natural sulfur" on bag (white plastic).

I don't know how "organic" it truly is as the back of bag states derived from elemental sulfur?

I am getting the impression that this will be a very slow going process. I have a feeling the problem is more than my soil.

My next step is to dig up some of the soil around the roots to check for root problems. I have a hunch I am not going to like what I see.

I am glad to see this thread ongoing. There are hundreds of Maples in our area that look the same, if not worse than my tree. So, I assume it is a predominant problem.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:424389}}

yeah, definitely a fairly regular occurrence - but if the trees are growing strong, putting out loads of new shoots/leaves, it seems like it could be worse.

thanks for the sulfur tip, btw!

Dwk001, excellent description of the process whereby sulfur can help certain plants obtain iron and manganese. I would only add that even when applied atop the mulch, some sulfur will be SLOWLY leached downwards to where this interaction can occur. Certainly, you are correct that for best results, the material needs to be in direct contact with the soil.

Cathyann and Carterobrien, the product I've used comes from a farm co-op. It is called pelletized sulfur, I think. Have you ever seen the kind of candy that looks like little colored drops stuck to a piece of paper? That is what this resembles-flat on one side, and a rounded drop on the other.

Sulfur is an element, and is mined from the earth. Can't get much more natural than that. This has nothing to do with "organic" in the gardening sense, though its' use may fall under those regulations. I'm not sure.

+oM

In the Chicago area, you can find 4-lb paper bags (bold yellow and red) of "Hi Yield Soil Sulphur" (in flake form) at garden centers like Sid's, The Growing Place, Planter's Palette, and others for $3-5/bag. It is difficult to know what process was used to produce the elemental sulfur you buy at garden centers. As +om said, there are naturally-occuring deposits of elemental sulfur. In the U.S., significant, fairly pure deposits exist in Louisiana and a couple other states. However, there's a huge amount of elemental sulfur on the market that's produced by treating the hydrogen sulfide gas (chemically "reducing" sulfide to sulfur) that is (1) found in natural gas and crude oil deposits and (2) produced as a waste stream during desulfurization of crude oil in refineries. Hydrogen sulfide is a very toxic gas, and the large quantities produced in natural gas and petroleum operations must be dealt with--it cannot simply be vented to the atmosphere, and the EPA regulates this.

There are enormous piles of yellow sulfur (made from hydrogen sulfide) sitting at some of the big natural gas fields in Canada. (Elemental sulfur is often shipped in bulk in the molten form in rail tankers. You can usually tell which tanker cars carry sulfur by the yellow crust around the hatch.) Much, but not all, of the elemental sulfur produced at refineries goes on to nearby processing plants to be turned into sulfuric acid, and then into (water-soluble) mineral sulfates that can be broadcast on fields as agricultural fertilizers.

In reading Espoma literture, I have gathered that when they use the term "all natural" with respect to inorganic ingredients (like elemental sulfur, or calcium sulfate), they mean it has been extracted/mined in that form from some place on the earth. But I've never called them to confirm that.

The "Hi Yield Soil Sulphur" is marketed by a reseller that I suspect gets sulfur from the cheapest source (which currently is probably one of the hydrogen sulfide sources). As a chemist, and as a citizen who uses both natural gas and refined petroleum products, I consider soil sulfur produced from the treatment of toxic hydrogen sulfide waste streams (generated by the demand for these fossil fuels) to be worthy of use.

+om, some "formulations" of elemental sulfur sold in bulk for agricultural use are coated with a surfactant to make the surface of the sulfur pellet/powder/etc. hydrophilic (wettable). For field use, most of the interest in elemental sulfur is as a cheaper source of soluble sulfate fertilizer, rather than as a soil acidifier. Elemental sulfur has a relatively low solubility in water, and in solid form it is hydrophobic. If the sulfur's surface can be made hydrophilic, then that improves the rate at which soil organisms (fungi and certain bacteria) can convert the sulfur to sulfate over the course of a growing season. Does the pelletized form that you buy have surfactants? Can you find out? If it does, all the better as a somewhat faster-acting, slow-release soil acidifier. (The down-side of some surfactants out in the environment is if significant quantities wash into aquatic habitats, where some can be toxic to aquatic animals. This should not be an issue for home gardeners using relatively small amounts of surfactant-coated sulfur for soil acidification. I'd keep it away from beds around ponds, though, to be safe.)

bump

cathyann, if your red maple puts out a second flush of leaves during the growing season, and you've not used any nutrient supplements along the way, any chlorosis due to manganese deficiency will be more pronounced in the second, younger set of leaves. Of the 18 or so major nutrients that plants need, some of them will stay put once they have been deposited in plant tissue, while others will move around the plant as they are shunted from older growth tissues to newer growth areas.

Included among the nutrients that stay put in a leaf, for example, are sulfur, calcium, iron, manganese, boron, and copper. Included among those that move around through the plant during the growing season are nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, magnesium, molybdenum, and zinc--problems associated with deficiencies of any of these more "mobile" nutrients will show up first in older growth.

I have been posting on several forums.

I believe the soil may only be part of the problem.

Here's a shot of a possible girdling root, upper right, orange root taking a turn.

Well, the root system looked ok. I did take off a few runners that looked suspicious.

I also found out that this is a grafted Maple and that may be part of the issue. Grafted Maples do not generally fair well in this area.

thanks, I'm eager to hear how it works out-

for my red maple, I laid down a thick layer of compost I harvested from my own composter (really good lookin' stuff, I might add), raked 10 lb of organic sulfur into the dirt outside of the mulched area but in the canopy, and I'm going to start collecting used coffee grounds at a local coffee store and will rake this into the yard as well (my yard could use the help, in general).

if this doesn't help by the end of next year, I'm afraid I'll probably call it quits and plant a different tree, but I really don't want to kill this tree without doing everything I can to help her get happy and healthy.