You won't get any tears over SPing Mayflower from moi.

I'm about to do likewise with its white -- well, ostensibly white -- offspring, Susan Williams Ellis. Wimpy little short-lived blossoms that look like someone had left a couple of used tissues on the bush.

And that was when things were going well. Then it reverted to pink, like its ancestor.

I've been circling the garden of late, looking for prey. SWE is elected. I need the room for September Morn.

Kay

I really like The Mayflower. Mine took a few years to mature, but worth the wait... The repeat bloom is excellent, it's almost always in bloom.

The blooms are small, but charming. The blooms and fragrance remind me of the Damask roses.

The blooms can ball in wet weather, but with rapid repeat bloom there are always new blooms to enjoy.

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Haha--I love your description of circling the garden looking for prey, Kay! I'm in a likewise predatory mode as I survey a way too long wish list.

I think The Countryman may need to go also, he does bloom but the flowers don't do much for me.

Oddly, The Ingenious Mr. Fairchild was so sparse of bloom that I couldn't recall anything about the flowers, yet as the weather has cooled he has given me these gorgeous, deeply cupped fragrant blooms. And Falstaff, who had a place by virtue of reliability but not for scent, has finally gotten the old rose fragrance they say he has in the UK. Those two get to keep their spots!

Maybe Mayflower likes it cooler, as mine has never looked NEARLY as healthy or flowerful as yours Krista. Or maybe I just received an unhealthy plant. Pretty much from the beginning it has had BS and dropping leaves and never more than a smattering of flowers. This surprised me since it is the one Austin says is tough. I guess there are plenty of pink Austins to choose from, so no reason to struggle with one that doesn't want to grow here.

I find Mayflower and its white sport to be rubish tbh - wouldn't bother with them. Grace is a Leander group, snd is normally very big and floriferous as you say though, absolutely no fragrance that I can detect. I thoink you guys need to be patient with Princess Alexandra of Kent, we have had it a bit longer over here and it is a slow starter but a brilliant rose once it gets going. In the second photo it is dead centre.

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Oooh, Caldonbeck!
You've just given me a new injection of patience with my PAK. Mine too is staying on the pigmy side of petite, and having a hard time holding her own with her more vigorous neighbors.
Yours looks absolutely glorious. Something to look forward to!

Kay

Your PA looks just beautiful, a lovely nicely shaped bush and the flowers have great form. My flowers have gotten fried before I could enjoy them here--for next year, I think I'll move her to a spot where she gets some sun protection from a fence and will not get buried under anyone if she stays short!

Fingers crossed a bit of shade will help - she is definitely worth keeping. It's nice to get one that doesn't tip its head when it rains too.

Thanks for the pictures and comments! I have smelled some fragrance in her blooms even as they are in the process of frying, so I'm hopeful she'll like the new spot I have in mind much better!

With the Austins I always watch how they behave as the weather cools--some thrive in our heat, while with others it is like they are waiting to go back to Shropshire and when it cools here they take on a whole new character. Suddenly the UK descriptions on fragrance seem much more accurate.

It's possible that you got a bad Mayflower plant and might as well get rid of it, but mine is a solid, reliable bush--not spectacular, but one I can always rely on to put out at least a few blooms and to never have BS problems. In fact, from your description of your Mayflower's BS problems, I would wonder if you even have the right plant. Maybe they substituted or mistakenly gave you a different plant? That said, the first 3 years of Mayflower were not impressive and I considered getting rid of it several times. Now I'm glad I didn't, but I still wouldn't put it in my absolute "favorites" category.

Kate

Yes, I agree entirely...I've put the shovel in a prominent location in view of the uncooperative ones, to see if they can take a hint. Lovely day to be out and about planning what goes where, while one can still see what the flower color combinations may look like. Once the winter kicks in I'll have to rely entirely on my notes and garden plan.

Now Mayflower does look sickly and unhappy, but even when the plant seemed healthier some of the blooms drooped on weak stems and failed to open, the buds just browned up. Those that did bloom were the little pink pom-poms they show for Mayflower in the catalog. I could nurse it, but I think it won't ever be an absolute favorite and I initially just put it in to see whether a rose that they said was very disease resistant would perform any better than their others. Most Austins are pretty healthy and disease resistant here anyway though, so not much extra benefit.

I think Louise Clements is getting Mayflower's spot next spring! I have plans to replace Noble Anthony with Wise Portia, unless he reveals a late bloom of wonderful character and fragrance. He's been pretty stingy but does have one about to open.

Now that the weather has cooled a few have become much more obviously fragrant, like Falstaff. I always thought the Austin book overstated him having strong old rose fragrance, but I can see that that's probably the case in the UK. Lots of additions for next season to be excited about too!

Most notable thing about my Noble Antony is his refusal to drop dead.... drops leaves, drops canes, drops petals but doesn't drop dead.

:) LOL

Excellent--that's exactly like mine, a collection of little defoliated sticks. Thanks, now I can give him a little help with the shovel, guilt-free!

Noble Anthony got the ax from me. Don't miss him at all. I thought it was just me...spindly, smallish blooms, pretty unremarkable...in the rear view mirror now.

I think Falstaffs fragrance is a myth here too lol. I think the problem is that he's put a lot of Rugosa in lately to get better disease resistance - but the flowers are obviously smaller, if a lot more frequent. Mayflower, Englands Rose and William and Catherine were big let downs for me. The only thing I have read was that the Rugosa types hate spray, so Iam thinking maybe I should go easy on them next year before I decide to dig them up. I'd rather have roses based more on old roses with big double blooms, that maybe just need the odd bit of attention to keep them fully healthy.

I can smell a moderate old rose fragrance from him now that it's cooler, but I have one of his blooms in a bud vase with Abe Darby and Will Shakespeare and those guys beat him hands down on fragrance. At present, DA lacks crimson roses that have potential as short climbers or large shrubs for back of border, this was the one they recommended and he does do that job at least. He's healthy and blooms with regularity. I also have Tradescant on my list to try at some point, as that one performs okay over here.

I share your preference for roses with great big double blooms, and am willing to take a small hit when it comes to disease resistance as I can keep them healthy here just by regular watering from the drip system and the occasional feed. Anything that needs more than that isn't long for this garden anyway...

I saw Grace blooming very well in a deadly hot and dry August garden here one year so it may not be right for your climate. I've shovel pruned more roses than I care to name but I have no regrets because I learned (the hard way naturally) what will and won't do well here for me, and now have a garden full of blooms (and almost no disease even though I don't spray). I've come to believe that trial and error in your OWN garden is the only way to achieve success. Since I grow mostly old roses I don't begrudge the struggling on-line nurseries the money I've spent on roses that ultimately didn't work for me. There are two or three roses I now regret giving up because they were simply in the wrong place, but that was also a learning experience and I'm more careful now. Overall, I'm for early gratification and don't have the time and water to waste on roses that look like heck year after year.

Ingrid

Noble Antony (Note: An-TONY, not An-THony, I got corrected on that) was a tenant here for a few years, several years ago, and left, un-lamented.

It is possible that this is one of those Austins that just does not succeed in a mild, winter-free, humid-aired, low-rain situation, with alkaline water ... but for whatever reasons, it performed here as it did for Teakettle. A scrawny, unattractive plant with few, and unimpressive blooms.

Jeri
Coastal Ventura County, SoCal

He must be sulking because I haven't been spelling/pronouncing his name properly. I think that may be a British versus American preference :)

http://www.englishforums.com/English/AntonyAnthonyQuestion/jjgzx/post.htm

Well, it sounds like I can let these guys go without any regrets that they'd suddenly become spectacular if I was just patient enough. I agree with what both of you say, one just has to try things to a large extent, and I don't have the patience to wait unless it really appears to be worth it.

One of the things that is great about this forum is being able to find out what works for others with similar climate issues. The information in books is always too generic. I love the novelty of some new roses each season, anyway, and I can't expand my garden too much more. So I don't mind swapping out a few that aren't performing to try to find some new winners.

Grace does really well in my cooler climate. The flower have a nice scent, I just can't remember what they smelled like. I like the quick rebloom and the largish amount of flowers. Definitely a keeper here.

Carol

I think the heat just sucks the life out of her here. Now that its cool I'm at least getting some longevity out of the flowers but I still can't smell anything in there.

The Austins incorporate quite a bit of genetic diversity, so it seems I can never predict how one will do based on how others have performed in my garden or based on what the books say for other climates. It really is trial and error, helped along by comparing notes with others that have similar climate conditions to deal with!

++ I think that may be a British versus American preference

*** Naw ... It was Syl Arena -- who was SELLING it -- who corrected me -- having gotten the correct pronunciation from Mr. Austin.
I took his correction to heart, but could not in the end love the rose. Alas!

The name, 'Noble Antony' (Ausway) is from Shakespeare's play, 'Antony and Cleopatra'. ... I NEVER argue with Shakespeare. :-)

Jeri

Good to know and I won't argue either....

that said, Chris Marlowe and Will Shakespeare 2000 are to be long time companions in this garden, lovely roses with fragrant beautiful blooms that I'd replant if any misfortune should come their way. While, Noble Antony...not so much...

I can tell that winter is coming because (although I've placed this year's order) I'm surfing the Encyclopedia of roses and the web, looking for more offerings I NEED to try...the Romanticas beckon currently...

Stlgal, if you are anticipating a shovel-generated vacancy and are looking for a white Romantica, Bolero is very fragrant and does well in the heat, at least in the heat of California, which may be more dry than your own. Stays compact at 3-4 feet, but is a blooming machine.

Stlgal: Thanks so much for the report on Austins so I know what to avoid. My regrets here: Pat Austin (healthy but few blooms that shatters, so-so scent) - Mary Rose (annoying prickly thorns). Onederw: Bolero is also great here in Chicago area. The best-looking and best-fragrance at the rose park in late fall. The fragrance is elegant, like an expensive perfume. Now I just have to find a red rose to plant next to Bolero in zone 5a.

When I checked on Mayflower and Eglantyne - there are varied opinions. I wonder if some roses prefer acidic soil versus alkaline soil. Some roses with a wimpy start might need some shade, or a jump on nitrogen. I had problems with William Shakespeare's own-root, slow, stunt, yellowish growth - until I fixed the soil: 2 gallons of peat moss with 1 gallon of alfalfa meal (bring down pH of my 7.7 alkaline soil, plus a hefty nitrogen-boost). He's now extremely vigorous, dark green, and healthy in east sun.

What Michaelg wrote helped me a lot: RE: Can Roses on Multiflora Rootstock Grow In Alkaline West? Posted by michaelg z6B NC Mts (My Page) on Fri, Feb 4, 11 at 17:28

Maryl, surely own-root hybrids vary in their tolerance for alkalinity and salts; many would be more tolerant than multiflora but less tolerant than Huey. Rugosa and roses of multiflora heritage (some ramblers, polyanthas, and hybrid musks) of course would tend to prefer acid.

Thanks for all of the useful information you have too--it is so helpful to swap information with other midwestern gardeners. Our mileage on some of these varieties definitely varies relative to those in other places. My Pat Austin got RRD and I decided not to replace her for the same reasons you mention, she bloomed steadily but was no bloom machine and I barely had time to appreciate them before they were gone. Mary Rose is such a steady grower here that I keep her although she is not at all exceptional in terms of form and fragrance.

I've heard Bolero mentioned by several people in our zone now. It's on my wishlist, although I haven't ordered it yet. Same for Liv Tyler, which is out of stock at Regan--I was looking for a single seller from which I could get that one and Lady of Shalott but I think only Austin currently offers LS in the US and they don't carry any Romanticas.

Any other Romanticas that you know perform well in our midwest? I need fragrance, good rebloom and disease resistance. I love a number of them...

I also have Bolero although it has been getting smaller lately. You can try Frederic Mistral. It survived a few years in my garden. Comtesse de Provence (aka Liv Tyler) will not survive without winter protection. Great fragrance.

Yes, I do have Frederic Mistral in my order for the upcoming spring. I wanted to get Liv Tyler/Comtesse de Provence, but couldn't find her where they stocked other things I was ordering (Heirloom/Pickering). I could probably get another 2-3 if I'm creative with my beds and it would be nice to add Liv and another Romantica or two if I can bundle the shipping.

We're really zone 6a here (and some even warmer microclimates) so I haven't lost any Austins to winter kill. If they have die-back at all it is usually because the spring weather is wild swings between cold and hot--they start growing and then get frozen and have to start over. So I'm wondering if the Romanticas tend to be similar, tougher or more tender than the Austins, or if it is a rose by rose thing. I can put a little mulch on the base over winter, but don't really have the energy for anything more strenuous on winter protection.

When I contacted David Austin's to ask the name of the rose displayed prominently in the foreground of the uppermost photo on the website, see link below; I was informed that it was a grouping of Noble Antony. I asked the zone where the plants pictured were grown and was told the photo was taken in in the UK where summer high temps are around 75 degrees F.

Here is a link that might be useful: David Austin's American site