Thank you, Ann! You are always an awesome resource for everything.
I found the Botanica hardcover with the CD for $9.90 last year when I ordered quite a number of rose books, all at good price but this was a steal and was brand new.
Now, that the Modern Roses XII is out I am hoping to find MR XI for a price I could buy it for.

I am off to hunt. Hamilton sometimes does offer excellent books at very reasonable prices.

ditto on what Anne says. Its aggravating that ARS could not apparently find a U.S. author. Anyway, I prefer Botanica's, which does have an index.

Ceterum -- Don't bother with MR XI.
Go for one of the earlier ones.

You can get 9 or 10 very reasonably.
I got a lovely copy of the harder-to-find but desirable MR 8 at a good price, from Limberlost Rose Books.
Or you can search any of the regular used book channels.

Also, Botanica's Roses and The Ultimate Rose Book are coming out with new editions.
I saw URB last week -- 1st Edn -- for $9.99. GREAT buy!

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: Limberlost Rose Books

Thanks Jeri, I'll look for a lower number.

I usually do comparison shopping but I keep forgetting half.com.

Thanks, Ann, again.

Half.com has Botanica Roses in both hardcover & softcover.
http://search.half.ebay.com/botanica-roses_W0QQmZbooks

Here's another link:
http://search.half.ebay.com/encyclopedia-roses_W0QQmZbooks

Happy shopping!
Sherry

Yes, look for a lower number MR. The best may be MR V or MR VI, because they cross-reference roses by breeders (though more recent roses of course aren't included).

I bought that then decided to return it. Yes, the pics were gorgeous but I felt it concentrated too much on HTs. (The pics were too glossy to look real also.) Instead I ordered "Old-fashioned and David Austin Roses" by B.L. Taylor, "Antique Roses for the South" by W.C. Welch, and the Vintage catalog. (The 1st book tells how to make rose brandy!, The 2nd book has an assortment of information including how to dry roses, make potpourris, and rose hip jam.) All three have beautiful photos, but real life photos, rather than retouched, airbrushed ones. I'm not sorry I returned it. Brandy
P.S. I ordered the two books from Books a Million.

Well, to find Modern Roses Vi-X is not that easy. I guess, I should keep checking; not that I didn't do it before but I looked only for MRXI. and it was not a regular "hunt".

While I was checking Hamilton for other books, the encyclopedia already in my cart has become not so surely available.

Yes, you can sometimes find the older versions of Modern Roses for less than the price for the current edition, Modern Roses 12. However, you won't get nearly as much information. Well over 5,000 varieties were added just between MR XI and MR 12, with over 2,000 of them being Old Garden Roses. It now lists roughly 32,000 varieties. Much new information was added on thousands more, and many, many errors from past editions were corrected.

Further, when you buy Modern Roses 12, you get access to the Modern Roses database. This database contains even more information on the roses, and it will be kept up to date as new roses are introduced and more information is found. Thus your reference never gets out of date. Further, it contains pictures of many of the roses - with more pictures being added all the time - and the database is searchable. Right now you can only ask it to search for one item, such as class, color, hybridizer, etc. However, you will be able to make searches for two or more variables once that feature is added. This access will be free to MR12 purchasers during 2008, with a modest annual fee (amount not yet decided) being charged thereafter.

So yes, Modern Roses 12 does cost more than some older versions, but you also get a lot more.

I believe you Phil, it would not occur to me to doubt tour facts. Alas, my budget is already tied up in roses ordered and coming in February. In addition, this fall during a sleepless night I totally lost control and ordered clematis in great number. I hope I will see them blooming before DH kills me for this over-indulgence. L He of course will be very upset above all when I ask him to dig huge holes and for the permanent re-locating older varieties.

I ordered 2 copies of this book for the store where I work when it first came out. Haven't sold either one even at a discount. I enjoy looking thru it now and then, and it has a lot of interesting roses and information. But my problem with the book is how inaccurate the photos are. The colors are way off on most of the photos. With the digital technology today, I don't see why they didn't do a better job of getting them more accurate. Botanica is a waaaaay better book. And I can't wait to see the new edition!

I prefer Botanica's Roses. Also it's sort of disconcerting to look for roses under their US name and not find them easily. I do like the extras about gardens and breeders. No one rose book can be everything to everyone.

Gosh, I respect everything you all are saying. Obviously,
many of you are very savvy when it comes to books on
roses. I still think this book is useful. It has great information
about climbing roses, which are my favorites, in there. And
there is much about antique roses, even though, as Anntn6b
mentions, there are some mistakes in the edition.

What other books, besides Botanica's Roses, do you also
recommend? Does anyone have The Rose Bible? What about
that one?

Devon, I definitely find this book useful. It is one of those that I use to cross-reference roses that I'm interested in purchasing. I use that one, the Vintage Catalogue...I love the book: 100 antique roses for the garden by Clair Martin (i'm not sure of the exact title, i'm at work right now). I love the book: Landscaping with Roses, by Jeff Cox, also good for beautiful pics and great ideas about planting and design. I just ordered 4 more rose books from Amazon.com since Borders only carries so many. Have fun reading, Shelley

I have The Rose Bible and like the photographs in it. There's an interesting section on Ray Reddell's picks for Fifty Immortal Roses.

I'm so glad nobody has mentioned Quest-Ritson's CLIMBING ROSES OF THE WORLD. Too many problems with that one to mention.

Nice to see you not mentioning that, again, Dan :)

Best wishes
Jon

There's an interesting section on Ray Reddell's picks for Fifty Immortal Roses.

*** Many of which we dutifully planted 19 years ago, when the book was first published.
None of those roses lasted more than 3 or 4 years here.

Jeri

Not only do I have a copy of this book, I have two. Unfortunately, my husband and I were arguing one nite and things got rather heated. He grabbed my beloved rose book and threw it on the floor, breaking its backing and, of course, insensing me. The next day, he apologized for being a brute and purchased a brand new copy for me. Now I take my beat-up copy out in the field when I am visiting gardens and nurseries. I don't have to worry about it getting dirty or ruined. Then, I have my nice copy by my bedside for evening reading.

One thing that I would like to mention is that there are some errors. For example, I have Marie Curie and the author says that this rose is a one time bloomer. Not so! Just bear this in mind when you are reading. Cross referencing is important, with Helpmefind, etc. so that if you should decide on a rose you have all the pertinent information. Best regards, CJ

How could anyone write a book about thousands of roses without making an error or two. Then think about how a rose performs in different climates. Picky, picky.

I have Botanica and that other one by an Australian. Neither come up to the DK book because they are not complete in their description of a rose. QR, as I prefer to call it, gives size info, hardiness, repeat bloom character and many other useful tips on growing the rose. Adding another dimension to potential errors or put it differently something to find fault with.

They give it there best shot. And as far as American breeders vs European, I can't see any comparison. We suck!

Wow am I in for it!

Jim,
If you would look at the work being done by modern Canadian hybridizers who are building on the work done by earlier American and Canadian hybridizers, you might be surprised at the quality of the plants they are producing. They just aren't as loud about it.
Start with Percy Wright, Frank Skinner, Frank Erskin, and Simonet who were doing great innovative things on the Plains of Canada that still survive. Also look at the work done through the Canadian Government for over six decades.
Take a look at some of the roses that began with the cold hardy plants that Niels Hansen brought back at the turn of the last century.
Or don't look at all. Free world and we're all entitled to be myopic if we so choose.
But don't slam North American rose breeders and expect me to remain silent.
I have taken the time to read rose history and I enjoy what I've learned. It's not that hard to read rose history. And my garden is better and stronger for my looking beyond the modern roses.

I do have the DK ARS Encylopedia of Roses and love looking at the pictures and use it either as a quick reference to look up pictures of roses other people talk about, or to compile a list of roses I should start considering. I try and check pictures from all over the web though to double-check color, check out GW to see how it would actually do in the yard, and realize that size estimates of any book are always way off when talking about the year-long growing season where I live. I think that no matter what book anybody gets you have to realize what caveats hold true for you, whether it's you're in an area that's particularly cold, hot, rainy, etc. Just know how to modify the book's recommendations so they fit for you.

Moving on though, does anyone know when Botanica is supposed to come out with its new book? The Ultimate Rose Book came out less than a week ago ($47.25 at Amazon) but there were no listings for Botanica's new book, when they will usually list things that will be published in the next 6 months or so and let you pre-order or at least notify you when it goes on sale.

Also, regarding Botanica, what's the difference between
Botanica's Roses: Over 1,000 Pages & over 2,000 Plants Listed (Botanica) (Botanica) by W. A. Grant

and

Botanica's Roses: The Encyclopedia of Roses by David Austin and Peter Beales (Hardcover - Jan 1, 1998)
I thought it was one was paperback and the other hardcover, but with different authors, that seems unlikely. Which of the two do you think is better? And how would you compare them with The Ultimate Rose Book?

astphard, one IS the hardcover and the other IS the softcover. Not like novels. The softcover is a condensed version of the larger volume. Austin, Beales, Harkness and a host of others are listed as "Consultants and Contributors" in the softcover version. The little one is great for carrying to nurseries and gardens. Get both. The "Ultimate" Rose Book is good coffee table material. It could be found readily in the discount sections, but it seems to be scarce now. I rarely bring it out. If I had to choose, I would pick both versions of Botanica's over URB.

Did anyone mention Taylor's Guide to Roses? No?

Am I getting this right? I have the soft cover of Botanica that I got from Sams ages ago, but I did not realize it was a condensed version. Really?

The first hardcover edition came with a really nifty extra: All of the text, and SOME pix, on a CD.
I found that to be valuable for travelling.
Modern Roses 11 came with one, too. But MR 12 does not, more's the pity.

Jeri

Maryl, yes, softcover is a condenced version. I have both and they are different. If you want to find information on some interesting not so common rose, you are much more likely to find it in a hardcover Botanica.
Olga

I just bought botanica hardcover last week at borders books. It was on the bargain book racks for $9.99. It was marked $19.95 but rang up for $9.99.

When Botannica first came out with the hard cover, the book was much coveted here on Gardenweb. And then someone found that it was available at Sam's Club for $13. But lots of us didn't have Sam's Clubs. So many friendships were made by our buying copies at the very good price and sharing them (for cost + postage) with others here.
With Christmas coming, I wonder if the new one will come out for Christmas. For those who might be checking, it wasn't with the 'usual' book inventory at Sam's but came in (inventory wise) with other special purchases for Christmas.
And there were errors. So they reprinted it, with those corrections but without the CD.
So...first appearance was big and hardbound,
Second edition, also big and hardbound but no CD.
Third version, the paperback, not a foot breaker if you dropped it.

This did lead to confusion (and still does) because some bookstores cite the first author, others cite other authors who had responsibility for other sections.

I don't think any book has given me so much pleasure as the first hour of opening Botanicas seeing the lush photographs.

Thank you, Diane_NJ. And I'll take the bait, how does Taylor's Guide to Roses compare to the other books being discussed?

Anne-Lise

With all due deference to Ann, I do have to say that there are just as many mistakes and contentious opinions in 'Botanica' especially in the identity of a number of the roses illustrated growing in English gardens which I know.

I think the educated reader will accept all these caveats, understand that there is still much of dispute, and not rely on any one book. How dull our lives would be if we only needed one rose book!

Best wishes,
Jon

I was thinking about my coment about American breeders and preparing to defend myself.

Running the names through my mind for Europe there is Meilland, Harkness, Kordes, Tantau, Noack, Lens, Fryer, Poulsen, Delbard, Austin, McGredy, now NZ, and who did I forget?

Now for America who is there? J&P used to be big but who do they have now? I see names like Carruth and Zary. Are they connected to J&P or is it Weeks. Now the Canadians indeed to great work but they are not American. Picky I suppose. Who am I missing?

Why don't we have as many great rose firms as Europe???

Jim W -- Tom Carruth works for Weeks and Dr. Keith Zary works for Jackson & Perkins.

Both are brilliant, in my opinion, and have come up with many gorgeous, healthy varieties.

First I'll put a link to the HMF list of roses bred by Tom Carruth:

Here is a link that might be useful: roses bred by Tom Carruth

Keith Zary is the hybridizer for J&P and Tom Carruth for Weeks. There is also Ping Lim for Bailey who is doing some very nice things.

One hybridizer you can't leave out is the senior hybridizer in the world right now, Ralph Moore. He has produced many great roses in both the miniature and shrub areas.

One area where the U.S. hybridizers are well ahead of the European ones is miniatures. There we have Robbie Tucker at Rosemania, Dennis Bridges at Bridges, Michael Williams (formerly of The Mini-Rose Garden), and Frank Benardella, in addition to Ralph Moore (the father of the miniature rose). Their roses are being grown all over the world.

I wonder if the differences you see are due to the supply side (companies and their hybridizers) or the demand side (people who have a tradition of cottage gardens)? We won't be able to sort that out, I'm sure, but it can have an effect.

Phil and I cross-posted. Good information on more favorite US breeders, Phil!

Regarding rose books, I love them so much that I collect them, both new and vintage, but only a few are written with my Southern California location in mind. I always check where the writers originate and take into account differences in my climate, soil and conditions.

Anyway, below is my second link, to the HMF list of Dr. Zary's roses:

Here is a link that might be useful: Zary hybrids

PHIL SAID:
"One hybridizer you can't leave out is the senior hybridizer in the world right now, Ralph Moore. He has produced many great roses in both the miniature and shrub areas."

*** And take note: Mr. Moore is still actively working with his roses, at 100 years, 9 months of age. Admittedly, only a few hours a day, but STILL . . .

Jeri

Ah yes Ralph Moore. Surely a great one. Didn't think of him as his roses are mostly not hardy here. Glad to get clarification on Zary and Carruth.

Still a pretty slim list. I wonder why. We certainly must top the world as far as roses bought!

Why?
Because we have few rose-producing companies in the U.S.
We actually have fewer and fewer of them as time passes.
There are many innovative rose hybridizers in the U.S., but hybridizing is an avocation for them.
They must do something else to put bread on the table.

Jeri

I forgot to mention another good trait of DK. It is much lighter than the other two compendium's. I like to look at a rose book in bed and manage with my two arms under both corners to hold it up. So also equipped with the CRL and a small note book I've managed to go through it several times. I tried it with Botanica and it nearly sprained my wrists. Same for The Ultimate....

Now in doing that I found many candidates and ordered some. So far looking good. Such things as Bernstein Rose, Enfant de France, Fontaine and others, most of which I would likely to have missed in those other books. Partly because they lack pictures of every rose. Partly because they offer no hint about hardiness. Partly because they also have no details about size of flower and bush, or info about fragrance, etc.,etc. DK is also not hesitant to offer an opinion about the worth of a rose. I find them authoritative. An example: "Fontaine is a rose without equal with the abundance and energy of a floribunda and the toughness of a real shrub rose. etc, etc." In short a fragrant rose with big flowers that repeats constantly and no disease. Never heard of it before.

I guess some criticism of it is because it is foreign! Well that can't be it because so are the other two (B is from a number of authors mostly foreign)! Anyway I can't figure why it gets so many knocks. Perhaps posters will notice that I like it a lot.

Ok, I looked all up and down this thread and also did a search. What is the "DK" book.
Sherry

One of the things I hold against the Quest Ritson book is the total ignorance of American roses - even some of them that are widely grown abroad. The first one I looked for was Chevy Chase - no sign of it.
Reminds me of when I was in England and mentioned Roy Shepherd (another good rose breeder) to Michael Gilbert and he replied "we don't know him here" while standing in front of a whole bed of Golden Wings! How parochial can one get?

Sherry, DK is the publisher of the ARS Encyclopedia of Roses. If I hadn't had my book in front of me when someone first mentioned DK, I wouldn't have known either. :)

Anne-Lise

Thanks, Anne-Lise. The not knowing was killing me - kinda.
Sherry

"And as far as American breeders vs European, I can't see any comparison. We suck!"
Jim

I do not think it is fair or valid to make any direct comparisions between North American and European rose houses/hybridizers.

In the interest of not hijacking this thread, I think we should discuss European vs North American rose hybridizers on a separate thread.

oldroser - conversely, I once stood with a bus load of visiting American rosarians in front of a group of 'Golden Wings' - one of the greatest roses of all time (how many of you grow it?) - at Sissinghurst who were astonished to hear they had been bred by an American!

It is a silly discussion to any serious rose lover. Great roses have originated from everywhere, and will find a place in great gardens. In fact, I probably see more US-bred roses in National Trust gardens than I do in pictures of American gardens! Especially the great family of wichuriana ramblers. It has been unfortunate, though, that many of the most bred types of the American West Coast nurseries - the Pernettianas, the Spanish and Californian-raised HT's - often proved not to flower well in the English climate and so are not too well-known here.

Best wishes
Jon

Ii guess I was really trying to raise awareness about such as Meilland, Kordes, Tantau, Harkness, etc. Then fell into the "they are better trap". Still us Americans tend to feel if it is not invented here forget it.

Yet Jon makes a good point, forget where they come from and just enjoy them.

Well unintended I'm sure but his mention of Golden Wings makes a point I made on a new thread on this subject, we seem to have been more active in former years.

No I don't grow GW although I have thought about it many times. Now I'm going to do it!

I could care less us vs european hybridizers. That's pretentious nonsense. But speaking of golden wings, it is the only rose blooming right now for me.

Here are some others not to forget:

Griffeth Buck
Vernon Rickard
Paul Barden

I don't believe Americans are dissinterested in things that were not invented here. We seem to be quite fond of things with European names like Krupps, Braun, and all those other coffee makers. We eat tons of ethnic food. Lots of us are tourists. When the Beatles came out many of us became Anglophiles and a lot of us still think the English cottage garden is the ultimate. We are a country full of appreciative people, IMO. I have never noticed anyone not wanting to buy a rose because it was bred by a non-AMerican. Excuse me for digressing.

Anyway even with it's flaws I bet I could really enjoy looking at that book, Devon. I usually check the big Botanica's out from the library but have my easy to hold paperback copy which I enjoy. My library also has The Rose Bible and Antique Roses for the South, both of which were responsible for a number of roses in my garden.

Linda

Add William Radler, the hybridizer of Knock Out, who is at Star.

Anne-Lise, Taylor's is a slimmer volume (paperback), not as many roses, but more details per rose.

LINDA, I'll have to check out The Rose Bible. I've
been wanting to get that one. Antique Roses for the
South, sounds interesting. Might be fun to look that
one over, too. I have the Botanica one and enjoy it,
Thank you Linda, for the recommendations. So nice
to hear from you.

SHELLFLEUR, I'm glad someone else finds the book useful. I
do want to get 100 Roses for the American Garden, for sure.
Thank's for mentioning it, Shelly.

I agree with Ann about that first hour of ecstasy looking at the hard copy of Botanica's Roses....pure heaven. I love that book so much it is always on my coffee table..in easy reach for when I sit down for a minute.

But there is one thing that we all can agree on...how much we love our roses. Each one of us has a favorite that does wonderful for us in our yard.

I must say...Souvenier de la Malmaison is perhaps my most favorite rose and it is always so pretty in rose books.

Deb :o)))