Where's Susan Louise now?

I think Susan Louise may be a Tea Rose, at present.
We need to look at her.
Her problem is that she doesn't grow like a Gigantea, but perhaps we need to discuss her?

Jeri

"I think Susan Louise may be a Tea Rose, at present.
We need to look at her.
Her problem is that she doesn't grow like a Gigantea, but perhaps we need to discuss her?"

Mine do.

da Kernel

Why the cheers for the classification change? What are the implications?

Melissa

Melissa --

EXERPTED FROM A LETTER SENT TO THE ARS CLASSIFICATION COMMITTEE:

'Belle Portugaise' 'La Follette' and 'Senateur Amic, having languished for some years as Large-Flowered Climbers, were shifted to the Climbing Tea Class. There they remain, sad misfits, in the newly-published Modern Roses XII. Additional confusion arises with regard to ÂBelle Blanca. Briefly, strangely, classed as a Shrub, ÂBelle Blanca has landed in the Large-Flowered Climber category. This lovely White sport of ÂBelle Portugaise is identical to its parent in all but color. Should not a color sport, otherwise identical to its parent, be placed in the same class as the parent?
These four cultivars are once-blooming, tree-climbing, first-generation offspring of Rosa gigantea, liberally equipped with gigantea characteristics. IndiaÂs Viru Viraraghavan, probably the person now most familiar with Rosa gigantea, and hybrids of Rosa gigantea, has stated that, in his opinion, to qualify for classification as a Hybrid gigantea, a variety should satisfy two criteria: 1. having R. gigantea in its
parentage and 2. also in its growth habit.
Examining the records carefully, and knowing the habits of the roses involved, I cannot find any characteristic, or anything in their pedigree that makes these cultivars anything other than Hybrid giganteas. The difference  to the gardener who might grow them  is significant.
ThereÂs enough space in my garden for a Climbing Tea Rose.
Much as I admire her, however, I cannot accommodate the 30-foot-spreading, once-blooming, tree-scrambling mass of ÂBelle Portugaise. I must enjoy her in other, larger gardens.
The same factors prevent me from growing her sport, ÂBelle Blanca, and half-siblings, ÂSenateur Amic, and ÂLa Follette. If I had a huge piece of land, IÂd plant all four of them and enjoy the heart-stopping spectacle of their spring fireworks  but unless I win the lottery, thatÂs not going to happen.
Imagine the dismay of the novice gardener, who plants a pair of ÂBelle Portugaise against their nice Home Depot rose arbor. What is he or she to think, when their so-called "Climbing Teas" turn out to be spring-blooming octopi with house-eating, tree-gobbling capability?
ÂBelle Portugaise probably the best-known of the three, is said to have been created from a cross of Rosa gigantea x ÂReine Marie Henriette, (a Climbing Tea). In Modern Roses II, (1947) McFarland appears to doubt the participation of ÂReine Marie Henriette in this union. His doubt is understandable, as there is little evidence of the Tea in ÂBelle Portugaise. Most of its characteristics appear to have been derived directly from gigantea. ÂBelle Blanca, reverting to the white of Rosa gigantea, similarly flaunts that part of her heritage.
This is equally true of ÂSenateur Amic and ÂLa Follette.Â
ÂSenateur Amic, is R. gigantea x ÂGeneral MacArthur. The General is a fine, fragrant Hybrid Tea, introduced in 1905. If the record is correct, no Tea Rose, climbing or otherwise, was present at the begetting of ÂGeneral MacArthur.Â
ÂLa Follette, poor dear, is of more doubtful parentage. It is listed as the product of a cross of Rosa gigantea x an un-named seedling. Where in that hidden origin, that un-recorded parentage, do we find "Climbing Tea"?

Jeri

I have trouble getting Susan Louise through winters, but I do. Susan Louise is different from my teas but I see what I think are some similarities to the R. gigantea flowers I've seen pictures of. But dismissing what I've seen, let's go to the ARS, itself.
ARS Annual, 1930, page 220.
"Susan Louise, H. gig., (Charles E. Adams, intro. by C.H. Stocking 1929.) Belle of Portugal x unknown seedling." and then it goes into bloom, repetition, and that it's very hardy in California. It does limit size to five to six feet.
I'm not sure where the oft repeated claim that it's a sport of Belle Portugauise comes from. And then, there's the Belle of Portugal vs. Belle Portugaise thing.
Just as size is a determinant, perhaps hardiness needs to be factored in. But maybe the folks on the classification committee have all grown these roses and have done it more successfully than some of us.

IIRC, Viru Viraraghavan proposed that the requirements for being accounted a Hgig were that one parent be a Hgig, and that the growth habit should be like that of R. gigantea.

IF one accepts that premise (and Viru probably knows gigantea these days better than anyone) does Susan Louise fit?
Mel says that she grows for him like a Hgig, so we got that.

Kernel -- Have you asked Viru his opinion on Susan Louise????

Jeri

Jeri,

Thanks.

Melissa

Susan Louise is a sport of Belle Portugaise according to HelpMeFind.

Mike

Well, there is apparently some dispute about her parentage.

Jeri

For those who show roses, this is very, very important since climbing hybrid teas have to be shown in the regular hybrid tea class where they never (well hardly ever) achieve the pointed, high center required to win in that class (though can receive blue ribbons for being good of their type).
Also very, very important because it gives some clues to the way they grow. What if someone (poor soul!) orders a H.Gigan. under the impression that it grows like climbing Crimson Glory. What a horrible surprise when it winter kills in zone 6.
Now if they would just do something about Aloha, currently languishing in the climbing hybrid tea class when it should be a large flowered climber.
Or the entire rambler class - they currently have White Mountains (a University of NH introduction from a Percy Skinner breeding line) classed as a large flowered climber - with its clusters of small white flowers (a bit like White Dorothy but a lot hardier), it gets judges even more confused than they usually are.

Do you know if White Mountains has either multiflora or wichurana in its background?

According to a chapter furnished by Dr. E.B. Risley of the Univeristy of New Hampshire, in Roscoe Fillmore's book, Roses for Canadian Roses, White Mountains (p 198-199) "is a cultiar which resultind from using Skinner's Ramber pollen on Skinner's Rambler in 1952.
From the same book, page 195 "Skinner's Rambler...this variety is supposedly a strong growing seedling of Rosa maximowiczianoa regel. "

No. I haven't asked Viru, but I will.

My two 12'-15' Susan Louises came from Tom L. whose SL are also in the 12' range. His came from Stockings where he used to work. One, I know, in front of the house in San Jose that Dr. Adams lived in grows to about 10'. There was one in Willow Glen, since removed, That rebloomed 25' up a dead tree!
No one is sure of the parentage, but blooms are so close to Belle Portugaise that there isn't much doubt as to that parent. Given that it reblooms well, my personal opinion is that the other parent is a rebloomer.

IMHO, it IS a HGig!

Da Kernel

OK Kernel -- I take your word as definitive.
Now we just have to figure out how to word it so that "they" will agree.

Jeri

(About to hit the road for Petaluma)

Excellent, Ann! Hopefully we will soon have a class for those pesky Hybrid maximowiczianoa regel's which we have all been waiting for with bated breath :) 'Hy Maxi' sounds pretty good!

Best TIC wishes
Jon

Jon,
May I predict that we will then have a H. wichurana/wichuriana like debate for H maximowiczianas and with a side debate on the transliteration of the name.
Our ag library does have Skinner's book, and I'll try to see if there's more about H. ma....a in it this weekend.

And I'd love to have more hints for keeping Susan Louise alive through winter.

I'm glad to hear of this change, being a fan of the species and its' hybrids. One thing I've seen R. gigantea and "Susan Louise" do that I've never seen other roses do that did not have R. gigantea as an ancestor, is to grow from a single, thick trunk-like cane, and then form a canopy 12+ feet from the ground. Thus forming a tree-rose shape without being budded onto another rosebush.

Luxrosa

I guess that makes these cultivars "moderns" now, which is probably where they belong.

Seriously, though, if they can do all of this - can't they re-establish the rambler class?

Ann, I think the word hardiness coming from the mouth from anyone in coastal California is likely to be used in the sense of "toughness and garden-worthiness and freeze tolerant" and not in the sense of winter hardiness that you are accustomed to. I see the reference used all the time in California, even by farmers in the central valley which is largely Zone 9. Winter hardiness isn't ever a factor in much of the Valley unless we're discussing tropicals. Since large parts of coastal California are perfect for tropical plants, hardiness has come to mean, in horticulture, "freeze hardy," i.e. won't die at 25 degrees.

Cass,
That's pretty much the way I figured it. I am curious about what McFarland said about individual H. giganteas that he was getting from Clarke in Australia and growing at Breeze Hill, inland in PA.
And I did get to the library today and reread F.L. Skinner's book on his hybridizing of all plants at Dropmore, Man. He didn't mention his having made a white rambler, nor did he mention using R. maxim....but he did mention sending plants to Dr. Risley in New Hampshire.
Ann

For what it's worth, I have a boisterous young R. gigantea going here in DC and will be watching it closely to see how it does this winter. So far, it doesn't strike me as looking particularly tender - but you never know. It's the Vintage clone.