I don't think you could go wrong with growing it up a tree. I think it would be unmanageable on an arbor over a gate, sizewise. If memory serves it's once-bloomer and I wouldn't build a structure especially for it. I'm not sure about the other two options, but hopefully you'll get more answers.

Ingrid

It's not something I've ever really considered all that big. Straight setigera isn't all *that* big here, and I'd expect LJS to be smaller than that. Mine is on a split rail fence with the rest of the ramblers, and is still quite small.

So picket fence, yes. Tree, no, unless we are talking about a tiny tree. Arbor, yes, but will take a fair amount of training. Garage, not big enough.

HMF lists LJS at a height of 16' 5" to 19' 8". How big does it get for you in Eastern New York, mad_gallica?

At five years old, it is still a baby. The longest cane is less than 5 ft. Species setigera grows to about 15 ft, and I honestly don't expect it to get bigger than that. The other setigera ramblers I've grown have gotten about that big.

I ordered LJS earlier this year from Northwood. Mine is still in a 1g pot and hasn't grown even a bit! I'm waiting for the explosion at some point so I can get him in the ground, although, like Zaphod said, I'm also a little intimidated and can't quite figure out where to put it either! I have 1.5 acres, but I have so many of the big ramblers I don't know what I was thinking! I won't be able to see my fence soon! :)

Tammy

My experience with 'Long John Silver' from Vintage Gardens in my zone 6 garden is that it is entirely a different growing rose from 'Francois Juranville'. While 'Francois Juranville' has long thin pliable canes that can be wound around a picket fence, 'Long John Silver' has very thick rigid canes that are not pliable. In my zone 6 garden I can imagine that it could indeed grow up a small tree. I have mine along a 4' fence and must remove it as it is just too massive and thick caned to work on the fence. I think I will move it to the back of a mixed border of roses and woody plants and hope that it grows up through an old yew that is about 20' tall.

I don't see how you even get the rose into the soil beneath a tree. Most trees have roots that would make it hard if not impossible to dig underneath them...don't they?

I put some ramblers in as babies near a massive Maple. They did (and do) well, but I'm sure the kind of tree matters as does the vigor of the baby rose. I have an arch and then they go up into the maple. It's a spot for the birds, really. (Toby Transom and Sebastopol Queen by Vintage).

I tried to have Night Owl as a bareroot climb a tall Vitex, and that did not work out at all. The Vitex won :D

I also use tall ramblers up and over my tall shed. My setigera hybrid Queen of the Prairies gets crazy tall, lol! I'm in a warm zone.

Some can make free-standing specimens, too, but you have to know the rose. I have Pink Mermaid as a tall-weepy specimen that trails onto a very low fence. Beside that, I have Cl Pompon de Paris doing the same. I just whack off what I don't like and train the rest, but they are much less stiff to start with than many ramblers. They make a nice fan or fountain shape with a stiff base and trailing top if you prune and train them to do so.

O,Meredith,that sounds SO beautiful, Pink Mermaid and Clbg Pompon grown as "weepers"!!! I want to try this with Mme Solvay; growing it up a pole that has an "umbrella" form at the top, so the branches will cascade down. I can't see ever growing a grafted weeping standard in my windy, exposed garden, but I am hoping to manage to "fake it" like this. Do you have any advice as to how you succeeded in doing this? Any photos? regards, bart

Vicky, I have a heart shaped bed and have a maple tree in the middle and roses all around. I planted the roses when we planted the tree, so they've grown up together. The tree is now almost 30 feet and I will have to remove some of the lower branches because it's casting too much shade, but the roses on the back side of the bed appreciate some shade. I have Crepescule in that bed and it's now growing up the tree (as well as all over the bed intermingling with the other roses.

"I don't see how you even get the rose into the soil beneath a tree. Most trees have roots that would make it hard if not impossible to dig underneath them...don't they?"

You are correct: you can't plant a rose directly under a tree. That's one reason you need a big rose that can support itself with stout canes, because you don't plant it next to the tree, you plant it out of the direct root zone but under the canopy. Getting a rose to grow up a tree can take a long time and requires a rose that is already growing well. Roses do not do well in the shade and will never overcome a tree if entirely in the shade.

Notice that I stated I will plant my 'Long John Silver' by a Yew. The Yew is a multi-stemmed large shrub that grows slowly into a tree. I will plant the rose on the south side so it gets enough sun to power it up the tree. As already mentioned, it can be successful to start the tree and the rose together so that neither over powers the other. I tried this with a rambler and a lilac which, again, makes a large shrub rather than a tree. I should have given the lilac a head start as the rambler is overpowering it already. Other shrubs I am using to support ramblers are Prunus maritima (Beach Plum) and Myrica pensylvanica, the Northern Bayberry. Both these shrubs are slow growing so need a head start before planting the rambler.

Palustris - what you said about planting roses under a tree may be true in your zone/area, but it is dangerous to generalize so much - many folks who read your post do not live in your climate, and what you said is actually not correct everywhere. I know - I planted A BAND (not knowing any better) of the tea/noisette 'Madam Alfred Carriere' within 2 feet of the trunk of an old very large plum tree, in an area that was sort of a wild forest of volunteer plums, figs, ornamental cherries, pomegranates, and other garden shrubs - the descendants of an old garden area grown wild for decades. The area was indeed 100% shade at the bottom where we planted the rose. All we did was to take a string and put it from where the rose was to the tree trunk. Within 2 years that rose had made it to the top of the plum tree (over 20 feet high), and was growing and blooming madly, and still is there, ditto, 20 years later. Here is a pic of it (it is the one in the background growing up into the forest canopy -

All I am trying to say is that a person's experience in one climate area does not necessarily translate to all areas, and I don't want anyone to be discouraged from trying to grow roses up trees, even if the base of the tree is in deep shade.

Jackie

My experience corresponds to mad gallica's and I believe her climate is roughly similar to mine. I grow Long John Silver on a low arch and the rose is nowhere near the top of the arch and never more than 5 or 6 ft. I've seen huge specimens in Denmark where the climate is milder than my Swedish climate.

I have three 20 ft tall ramblers, Secret Garden Musk Climber that has outgrown a Cornelian cherry, sprouting way above the little tree, a helenae hybrid in a tall pear tree and Lykkefund, another helenae hybrid, in a tall plum tree. All are planted close to their supporting trees and seem to have no problem with that. It may help that none of the trees are very dense.