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ingrid_vc

Which Rose Should I Choose?

Having given up on Cl. La France, I'm now on the lookout for another rose for my triangular front plot, which looks rather bare and pitiful since I moved one rose, gave up on another one and the own-root roses I do have there now are barely growing. I was thinking of trying a hopefully fast-growing, vigorous rose there from The Antique Rose Emporium, since I already have an order there for Duchesse de Brabant (my third try). The roses I'm considering are Monsieur Tillier, Marie Van Houtte and Reve d'Or grown as a bush. It has to be gorgeous, tough as nails, doesn't fry in dry heat, blooms a lot and laughs at disease. Notice I'm not asking for fragrance since I don't want to seem greedy......

If anyone has suggestions other than the above, please feel free to tell me.

Ingrid

Comments (35)

  • organic_tosca
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    How large is your space, Ingrid?

  • Vicissitudezz
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Ingrid, are you looking for a climber, or would something else work? I don't have any suggestions, but someone else probably will.

    I ask because I have somehow gotten the idea that climbers are not usually fast growers, but probably I'm just confused. As usual.

    Good luck,
    Virginia

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  • bellegallica9a
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    FWIW, I believe it depends on what you want in terms of color. I'm thinking MvH and Reve d'Or will both quickly fade to cream in your climate.

    M Tillier, on the other hand, looks like it fades to the point where the other two start. (I also love the flat-topped swirl of petals in the just opened stage.)

  • Poorbutroserich Susan Nashville
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Ingrid, I cannot say enough wonderful things about 2 roses. Literally they can't be killed!
    Kordes Caramella….or Caramel Fairy Tale is a BEAUTIFUL ROSE. Exceptionally vigorous but will take severe pruning and just blooms and blooms. Scent…sometimes.
    Ivor's Rose…named for an English weather forecaster bred by Beales. I swear it beats Knockouts for ease of care and if it had been named something else it would be grown by far more folks. Its vigorous but not a thug and blooms all summer! No disease at all and in a really hot, shallow spot.
    I know our climates are very different but I thought I'd toss these out there. And I know they are modern too, so I don't know how you feel about that. I think they both have an "antique" look to them. I know how your roses struggle with the drought and the heat and I think these would do wonderfully!
    Monsieur Tillier is by far my toughest OGR and I have quite a few. It blooms the most and no disease at all.
    Madame Berkley is another good one that comes to mind.
    Mlle. Franziska Kruger is a beautiful rose and Angel's Camp Tea.
    These are the roses that off the top of my head are usually blooming and healthy.
    Another gorgeous one that Jean Harrison grew in her no spray garden is Prairie Sunset. Always in bloom. Beautiful blooms and healthy…bred by Buck. The photo attached is when she was a baby. This is a blown bloom. They start off tighter and more cupped. I have another gorgeous photo of her and I remember you commenting on it if you'd like to see it, let me know
    Susan

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    To answer some questions, I'm not looking for a climber but was considering growing Reve d'Or, which is a climber, as a large shrub. And you're not confused, Virginia, climbers are slower to grow. I have about 6 x 5 feet of space, possibly more if the rose is tall and arches outward at the top. I prefer an old rose but beggars can't be choosers and I'll take anything that works (except Knockouts!).

    Susan, the rose in your picture is beautiful but Buck roses don't do well here. I loved Earth Song when I saw pictures of it but it did miserably here in two different locations with all the care I could give it.

    bellegallica, I've had Reve d'Or before (it died because I put it against a mostly sunny house wall) and it actually never faded to cream, although MvH very well might and I'm not sure I want that. Still, tough is the primary consideration at this point, and for me that means being able to stand the heat.

    Susan, I've had three of the teas you mention. Madame Berkeley is a good choice but for some strange reason I've never really cared for it. The other two didn't do well for me in the heat. Monsieur Tillier may be a good choice. Caramella sounds like a color I wouldn't care for, but I'll look it up, and also Ivor's Rose, which sounds interesting. I really appreciate your suggestions.

    I'll gladly accept more ideas. A part of me thinks I'm insane to want to grow more roses and the other part just can't let go. I tell myself if they all die at least I'll have supported the rose nursery business, but there is still the hope that the toughest will survive in more dire conditions.

    Ingrid

  • boncrow66
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This is my first year planting any OGR's but my friend grows La Marne and it is beautiful and takes the heat like a champ.

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    boncrow, La Marne was one of my failures. It turned a dirty white when it began to get warm and stayed that way until I couldn't stand to look at it any more. Disappointing since the pictures were so pretty and this rose has such a good reputation.
    I'm also looking for larger, more dramatic blooms in this instance.

    Ingrid

  • ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    You mentioned wishing you had put Madame Lombard in your tea row, Ingrid. What about her?

    Jay

  • Kippy
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Schneewittchen?? He he kidding

    I don't have any experience with the others but....

    My archduke Joseph is growing fast but has a tendency to green centers and my Reve d'Or has grown fast. Although she is mostly canes and just a few blooms but hoping that is cause she is putting her energy elsewhere

  • sammy zone 7 Tulsa
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I like Marie Van Houtte, and grow her with William R. Smith, and two smaller roses (Rubens and Rival de Paestum).

    Have you ever had much luck growing a climber as a regular rose? My experience with Reve was that it took a full 3 years to come into its own, then it shot out long long branches.

    I like Monsieur Tillier, but the red that I really like is Cramoisi Superieur. I do not have artistic training, but the bloom form on MT is not delicate like the form of Marie. I am not sure if you want the same form. I have Cramoisi, Monsieur, Duchesse de Brabant, Erfurt, and Bubble Bath all in an area together (a very large area). When I look at MT, I don't really notice that the bloom form is fuller and heavier.

    Your garden is beautiful, and your choice will be the best. I have always had good luck with getting answers from ARE when I have had questions about their roses.

    Sammy

  • roseseek
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Of the three you listed, Ingrid, Tillier's flowers will handle the heat and sun best. Your experience with La Marne is similar to mine. Great plant with truly awful flowers in high heat and laser beam sun. Reve d'Or is wonderful, but fries immediately here. Tillier has the substance, color and quantity of petals to handle these extremes best of the three. Good luck! I'm afraid we're going to need it. Kim

  • alameda/zone 8/East Texas
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I put several old gardens in an area that gets full, hot, all day Texas sun. Wanted a bushy look to cover some large concrete pieces that had to be put there to keep water flow from rain from making a huge ditch. I interspersed with different colors of crepe myrtles. I watered the first year - nothing since. Mon. Tillier and Mrs. B.R. Cant would be my suggestions. They are tough as they come, for me, and bloom lots. I do really like Mme. Berkeley - it blooms all at once, the blooms aren't flashy but are well shaped, and the bush is well shaped and healthy - I really love this rose. But the above 2 would be ideal for your situation, if they grow anything like mine. I have done done any supplemental watering since the first year.
    Judith

  • Vicissitudezz
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Ingrid, have you ever had a notion to try 'Gartendirektor Otto Linne'? Possibly not your cuppa tea, but it does have a reputation of being tolerant of a variety of situations... Maybe someone who has grown it in hot, dry conditions could say more about its suitability?

    Are there any roses you're already growing that you think would work? If so, perhaps a related rose might be worth investigating.

    Good luck,
    Virginia

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Virginia, I had the Gartendirektor in another garden years ago, and it did well and I liked it, but it wasn't a rose that I really loved. I have a certain picture in my mind of the rose I want, and it has to have larger flowers than this rose, and also I've decided that I don't want any more pink roses at this time.

    I have quite a few tea roses and they seem for the most part to do well here, and that's why I'm leaning in that direction.

    Ingrid

  • taoseeker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    How would Yolande d'Aragon do in zone 10? In milder zones it gets on the larg size, takes heat fairly well and has lots of fragrance. It can be a really nice rose.

  • ArbutusOmnedo 10/24
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Maybe a rugosa, Ingrid? I seem to remember you mentioning either one or multiple Austins with rugosa heritage did well for you. Maybe something like Agnes, Vanguard, or one of the white flowering rugosa hybrids? Or even one of the species forms?

  • bayourose
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I am very new to gardening/roses and I ordered two roses from chamblees earlier this year as they were touted as easy to grow. The roses were M. Tillier and BR Cant. They both have outgrown their pots, and are beautiful bushes with little to no care at all. I don't water them either, they only get the rain that the weather provides, although, I know this is much more than you get but I'm sure they would do fine with your water restrictions, as they don't seem like water hogs to me. they are vigorous growers, but M. Tillier has filled out better and has not shot out a super cane like Mrs. BR Cant has, so her shape is not as pretty. I know that I am supposed to dead head the buds for the first year, but I can not keep up with M. Tillier's blooms which are a beautiful, non classical form. I don't know how to describe it, but it doesn't fade in my melting, swarmy heat. if you want to fill up the space fast, I would recommend these two no-fuss roses, but of the two, my recommendation would be M. Tillier. These two roses have neither BS or any other disease that I have noticed. FWIW. Best of luck!

  • Marlorena
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I know you have tried many different roses before now, but would you like 'Gilbert Nabonnand' do you think? In Australia and NZ it's known as 'Jean Ducher', but G. Nabonnand is its correct name. It's a Tea and does well in hot climates. I expect you already know of it, but just thought to put it out there..

    I notice mixed reviews by California growers on this previous thread..
    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg011120364672.html

    This post was edited by Marlorena on Wed, Sep 3, 14 at 8:37

  • leezen4u
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I recall Jeri saying that Tillier turns to potpourri in the heat at her coastal location. My plant has this same trait so I am moving it to a cooler more shaded location. I am in Coastal Socal and it really never gets above 90 degrees. So, my recommendation would not be Tillier. One rose I have that enjoys the heat is Mrs. Dudley Cross. Her flowers love it here when it is hot, it grows quickly for a tea and I've read it thrives in Texas. The flowers are similar to Marie Van Houtte but the bush is smaller at maturity. My plant has only been in the ground for 18 months but is 3.5' tall by 5' wide. I grew it in a large pot for a year before planting so technically it is 2.5 years old. I expect it to mature at 6-8' x 6-8' depending on how much I prune it. No mildew or any other diseases so far. Antique Rose Emporium offers it too.

  • leezen4u
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Ingrid, the previous photo was from Oct. 2013 when MDC was only 8 months in the ground. Here is a pic July 2013 at 5 months in the ground or about 1.5 years total.

  • subk3
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I'll second (or third) Mons Tillier. Here's a picture of my baby bush--a 3 gallon I bought this past spring. I just ran out a snapped this shot because what I wanted you to see was that even though this is the end of a mini-flush this flush started and maintained itself through the hottest couple weeks of our summer. Most days in the mid 90s. Look in the upper left and you'll see another big spurt of growth that is covered in still very small buds.

    Now our climates are obviously different. As we say around here, "Oh darling, it's not the heat it's the humidity!" So it's HOT, but much more humid. (By the way it's clean with no spraying--it puts the Knockout I had to shame!) This bush isn't on the drip, but water has not been a problem. A couple inches of compost, a couple inches of mulch and some alfalfa pellets and this rose has been a star this year!

  • leezen4u
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Bad guess about size on my part. Mrs. Dudley Cross is currently 4.5 x 6' at 2.5 years old growing from a 6" band planted in the ground 1.5 years.

    I should not guess about size especially when a plant is growing on a hill and is several feet downhill from where I stand to enjoy its blooms. MDC's blooms are 4" and a very lovely yellow cream with a delightful pink flush more or less depending on the temp.

    I also have Reve d'Or. When its hot but humid her blooms last on long time on the bush and drop cleanly without frying. When it's hot and dry during a Santa Ana condition, her blooms turn crisp quickly. She is growing in part shade under a bottlebrush tree.

    I am also growing Madame Antoine Mari an earthkind drought tolerant Tea. It's not even a year old but it is vigorous and bushy and the blooms are very pretty and fairly plentiful for such a young plant.

    Hope you find a plant that will make you happy by being happy in your growing conditions.

    Lee

  • leezen4u
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I think its important to distinguish between hot and humid and hot and dry. Blooms may not turn crisp when humid but may do so when it's dry. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

  • jacqueline9CA
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Sounds as if the limiting factor in your garden is the hot and dry climate. Do you grow chinas? Those are the roses which laugh at the heat the most in my garden. Old Blush, Cramoisi Superior, mutabilis, and there are tons more - mostly red or pink, of course. Le Vesuve, which I believe grows fine there, is a china.

    Jackie

  • pat_bamaz7
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Hi Ingrid,
    It’s much more humid and rainy here, and mine are not yet mature, but FWIW…
    It’s only my second year with Marie Van Houtte and my first year with Monsieur Tillier. MvH doesn’t seem to mind the heat at all, but she’s not as constant a bloomer as some of my others yet… she seems to be concentrating more on getting huge right now. Her blooms are big and perfectly shaped, but often much pinker than I expected.
    I planted Monsieur Tillier late this spring and a sea of volunteer Cleome seedlings quickly outgrew and shaded him…so I can’t make a fair assessment. He’s still only about 6 inches tall and has only produced a few tiny blooms. I cut back the Cleome this past weekend to give him more sun, so hopefully he’ll put on some size and start blooming better soon. From what I've heard and what he’s shown me so far, his blooms are about the size of a quarter in the heat of summer. Maybe that would be different in dry heat, but if you are looking for a big flowered rose, that might be something to ask about.
    If you change your mind about another pink, Maman Cochet and Blossomtime have both been very heat tolerant, bloom machines for me so far. I grew New Dawn years ago and wasn’t impressed, but Blossomtime is SO much better than her parent ever was for me.
    I would recommend Perle des Jardins since balling probably isn’t an issue in your climate…but I believe you said you had tried that one without much luck? She’s new for me this year, but has rarely been without the biggest, most beautiful, long lasting blooms. Mine came from RU, so maybe it’s a different clone or maybe the rose just needs a more humid climate than yours?
    What about Maggie? Seems like I read in a recent thread where you said you liked the looks of her. She laughs off our heat down here and blooms like crazy. Great fragrance, too! I believe she’s supposed to do well in Texas…not sure if that includes the dry parts of the state that would be similar conditions as yours or just the humid areas?
    On another note, I read on a “good rose” post of yours that White Pet was doing well for you. Have you tried Caldwell Pink (which I think is the same as Pink Pet)? It’s an absolute workhorse here and has those lilac pink tones that I think you enjoy. Too small for the space you are asking about now, but maybe one to try somewhere else? No fragrance whatsoever to me, but otherwise a stellar rose here.

    And Susan, I need to quit reading your posts…you’ve enabled me once again. I now have Ivor’s Rose on order (plus a few others since I didn’t want to place an order for just one…lol)

    Perle des Jardins Bloom shot from Saturday:

    {{gwi:312726}}

    And bush shot from this morning with the blooms in Saturday’s shot still looking good:

    {{gwi:312727}}

    Monsieur Tillier (tiny, but cute):

    {{gwi:312728}}

    Maggie in August:

    {{gwi:312729}}

    Marie Van Houtte in August:

    {{gwi:312730}}

    {{gwi:312731}}

    Blossomtime this weekend:

    {{gwi:312732}}

    Maman Cochet in August:

    {{gwi:312733}}

    Caldwell Pink this weekend:

    {{gwi:312734}}

  • jacqueline9CA
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Caldwell Pink (aka Pink Pet) is rated accd to HMF to zone 10b, and does very well here in dry heat. It is also a china rose.

    Jackie

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I've been at work all day and just now looked at this thread, and I'm simply overwhelmed by the response and the gorgeous pictures. Thank you all for your kind generosity and willingness to help.

    Jackie, your roses are incredibly gorgeous, every one of them. In one picture I can see part of your garden in the background and that tells me everything. I see green, lush and beautiful. When I look outside I see a parched landscape where even the toughest vegetation is struggling to stay alive. When I tell you that Caldwell Pink did not do at all well here that will give you an idea of what I'm facing. White Pet still looks okay but has not bloomed since spring. My two Le Vesuve and Mutabilis are doing okay but are watered every day, like the rest of my garden. Mutabilis gets shade from the early afternoon and Le Vesuve from late afternoon which helps quite a bit.

    Susan, Ivor's Rose is available from Chamblee's under the name Flamenco and I really like it, but I'm afraid it will be bright red in my alkaline soil rather than the beautiful purplish red on HMF, which has happened to me with several other roses.

    I had two Mrs. Dudley Cross which did well before the drought but folded up after that, with endless mildew to boot. I love that rose and am really sad that I had to give it up. The flowers were so beautiful when at their best.

    Judith, I already have two plants of Mrs. B.R. Cant and it has been very healthy for me, although the flowers have crisped lately. Still, I consider it a very good rose for my garden.

    After due consideration, I've decided to choose Monsieur Tillier based on everyone's input about this rose. Kim's was the deciding vote because he understands intimately what my situation is, living in a similarly awful one himself.

    A water main burst today near my town and another one in San Diego, which is causing flooding and gigantic water loss when every drop of water is desperately needed here. The politicians who have allowed the infrastructure to collapse to this extent, where there is no money for vital repairs, all for their shortsighted and selfish political ends, without giving a darn about the people they are supposed to serve, have much to answer for.

    Ingrid

  • roseseek
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Ouch! That hurts. You did see the broken water main on Sunset Blvd., over in the "high rent district" last month which did MAJOR damage to UCLA? 20 million gallons of water wasted from a broken, century old water pipe. Something like one billion dollars in cash reserves, yet rates continue climbing and infrastructure crumbles. There is a special place in Hades.... Kim

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Yes, I did see that Kim. We could have all watered our gardens for a long time with that amount alone, not to mention what this added big one will amount to. We like to call ourselves a democracy but it's beginning to seem that's meant only for the top 10%. The rest of us just stumble along as best as we can with many of our needs ignored. I shudder to think of the day when there are multiple wildfires in the dry Western states and there is no water to put them out.

    Ingrid

  • roseseek
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    While there is still some water to fight fires, this Congress went off on vaction with out funding the fire fighting efforts, and while there are multiple fires burning in the west. We are literally an oligarchy. The money and power rest with the "top earners". We're in very deep manure. Kim

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Oh my goodness, what gorgeous pictures! I LOVE your walkway lined with roses and other plants. Do the roses there get afternoon shade? This looks like something out of a gardening magazine. I'm interested in the Ralph Moore roses you mentioned and will look them up. Princess Alexandra of Kent is another rose I really like. Thank you so much for posting these beautiful pictures.

    Ingrid

  • mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thanks Ingrid. I am very happy with the way my front yard looks this year. Did I mention that it is the first year for growing Munstead Wood, Princess Alexandra of Kent and Pretty Jessica. I just received those roses in January (on their own root) and they have done so well. The Wedding Cake rose is also on its own root but that plant is two years old. It is finally coming into its own. It was a 4 inch twig and barely rooted when I got it. I kept them in a one gallon container for a year before I planted them.

    Pretty Jessica gets afternoon shade after 6 PM or so. So I wouldn't say that it gets much. Princess Alex and Munstead get no shade in the afternoon. My walkway faces south. So there is not much shade. This summer has been VERY hot. We had a couple of weeks over 110 degrees and it is still over 100 every day. We can only water twice a week as well. They have come through like champs. Can't necessarily say the same for my other Austins in the back.

    Burlington Roses in Visalia CA has a lot of the Moore's roses. You may want to call and see what she has. She has a lot on own root and also grafted. She used to work with Ralph at Sequoia Nursery when he was alive. They may have the Ralph Moore roses you are seeking.

  • mustbnuts zone 9 sunset 9
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I just realized that you, Ingrid are the one with the most fabulous of fabulous yards! I am in awe! I LOVE your yard and the pictures you so generously share with all of us!

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    Original Author
    8 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thank you so much. Not many people see my garden, since it's at least 40 feet above the road, and it's a seldom-traveled dead-end road at that. I've received so much inspiration from others' gardens that I want to share what I've learned, even if my garden falls far short of many I've seen, especially in English garden books. I simply love looking at other people's gardens here; each one is unique and has its own voice.

    I really like Lavender Crystal very much. I'll have to ask Burling if she has one. I knew about her association with Ralph Moore and have bought several roses from her. I appreciate your helpful posts.

    Ingrid

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