Have you ever thought that you just might have a dud? I've read more than few positive reports regarding JAUNE DESPREZ. Robert where did you get your specimen? This might help Jeri in getting a good clone.

*** At the Antique Rose Emporium, last Fall.
:-)

I am not yet ready to call her a dud, btw.
But I do think one or two blooms would be nice.

Jeri

Mine was very slow to start. I bought it at Chamblees, and their roses are very small, but it took about 3 years for it to begin to grow well.Frankly I think it is worth the wait. Mine is very pretty. The blooms are small, but I think they are supposed to be small.

Yes, they are supposed to be small. I'm ok with that.

This is our third try at Jaune Desprez.
We ordered one almost 20 years ago, which died.
Then the replacement died.
Well, that was back when ARE sent out what we now think of as "band" plants -- but bare root.
So we decided to try again, this time going with a well-grown 1-G.
And this one IS very vigorous. It's just not blooming.
But HEY! It's not dead!
I'll shut up, and count my blessings.

Jeri

Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not really quite sure where I got mine. This is a rose that I got which turned out to be mislabled (a red climber). It was replaced...lo and behold, another red climber. So I bought two more from a different vendor or vendors. I know I got one from Chamblees...they may both be from Chamblees. One may be a third replacement. Whatever the case, I do now have two of them. One is huge the other a bit slower getting started.

Robert

Jeri--I have Jaune Desprez and it took quite a while for it to bloom in abundance. This year was the first year it bloomed a lot and rebloomed as well. It is about 2 1/2 years old and a monster with canes going over the top of the 9 foot fence. Mine did not bloom at 10 months here in Norcal. At one year or so it had a smattering of blooms. It really took off this year. Don't give up!

Patrick--That picture of MN is one I took at Vintage two years ago. Isn't MN divine? I am trying to grow mine up the 9 foot fence with hopes of seeing the blooms nodding down at me.

Joanne

Thanks Joanne -- You begin to restore my faith.
It is also, btw, absolutely clean, which is no small thing.

As for Marechal Niel, unless I move, or global climate change really ramps up,
I don't think I'll be able to grow it. But who could not love it?

Jeri

Hi, everyone!
Jeri, my Jaune Desprez also came from ARE. I admittedly have it planted in a less than fabulous location, at the east end of the pergola over the back patio where a Southern Magnolia tree is trying to hog all the sunlight. It gets less than it would like, but after 5 long years in that spot, it is finally coming along. It is still short, but getting better, it is full and lush and blooms are small but lovely and packed with scent.

Patrick, I have wanted a nice big vigorous clone of Marechal Niel for years. My DUD came from Chamblees about 4 years ago, it is in prime real estate and it has never gotten over 3 feet tall with 3 canes. It comes out this fall, to be replaced with (probably) a Rev d'Or, unless someone takes pity on me and obtains a good clone of MN.

For personal favorites, if he is in the category.... Lamarque is one of the most wonderful roses I have grown! If you have space, sunlight, heat, and reasonable soil, this rose is a powerhouse!!!

Hugs,
Allison

The picture of Duchesse d'Auerstadt knocked my socks off (were I crazy enough to wear any in this heat). I love the rich color and quartered formation. Is this a good rose overall with acceptable rebloom?

Ingrid

The funny thing about this rose, Ingrid, is that in our garden, it is a
four-foot-tall upright Shrub, rather than a climber of any sort.
It might be more vigorous for you. Kim Rupert says it needs some heat, to do
its best growing.

We also have some problems with balling, when the weather is humid (warm or chill)
=============

Allison, Reve d'Or remains one of my all-time faves. For me, it has it all.
Lamarque is a close second.
Both were grown here in Southern California long long ago, so they have a historic
context that I like, as well as being "DY-NO-MITE" on their own merits.

Jeri
which it is, here, much of the time.

Jeri

Thanks for that comment Jeri. I do LOVE Rev d'Or, and even though I already have one in the back yard, I am sure thinking about another one for that central arbor to replace my dud of Marechal Niel. WHERE does every one get the ones that are so awesome??? I know that Dr. Manners has one of grand reputation in Florida, but I guess they don't mail order from his college!

I am excited that ARE has had Jacotte available on their mailorder website for this upcoming fall. As soon as I saw it marked available, I ordered it (along with another Mrs. Dudley Cross, a Cl. Devoniensis, and a Parade, all for various areas of the property, a goodly mix of color!). Jacotte has interested me for several years, although I have never seen one other than in picture.

But back to this thread topic (sorry for the sidetrack, Patrick), which tea noisette has the brightest color?

Allison

which tea noisette has the brightest color

*** Well, remember -- they were more or less before bright colors.
More "the colors of twilight," rather than "Hot-Cha-Cha."
:-)

The strong saffron color of William Allen Richardson might be right in there?

Jeri

About MARECHAL NIEL. It is positively, without doubt, the most frustrating Tea-Noisette in the entire world. It also happens to be the most beautiful yellow rose in all of rosedom. Gorgeous flower form, clear yellow color, and fantastic fragrance. When happy, it is very vigorous, easily scaling the largest of garden structures. As you can see from Joanne's pic the nodding golden blooms, back-lit by the sun is almost too beautiful to be real. The lush foliage has decent disease resistance and is the perfect shade of green for the yellow blossoms. Sigh ... such a tease.

Now for the bad news. This rose is not just tender, it is super tender. Can't take the cold, not even a little bit. It also needs consistent summer heat to thrive and for the overfull blooms to properly open. The best reports come from folks living in places like Southern California, the hotter parts of Texas and the Deep South. The folks over at VINTAGE say their clone grows well own root (and the pic is the proof!) but Dr. Malcolm Manners swears it does better grafted onto Multiflora. Here is what he has to say about MARECHAL NIEL:

"We grow the "clone" (I hate that word, since the entire variety is a clone; maybe we should say "selection") of MN that was found by Greg Grant, in Texas, years ago -- a very vigorous one that tests free of virus disease. We graft it to 'Fortuniana' roots. That combination makes the most vigorous rose we've ever grown -- easily 15 feet per year, and it will cover whatever structure you put it on. Definitely house-eater category. At it's best, it is an amazingly beautiful rose. But in our humid climate, it balls for quite a lot of the year, and has severe thrips injury at other times. So it's not always beautiful. It's pretty good right now. It's other fault is that it is the most unforgiving of pruning of any rose I've ever seen. We grow it on an 8x8x8 foot arbor with two benches underneath. To keep it tidy on that structure, we have tried to give it a "haircut" a foot or so above the 8' roof. Doing so sometimes kills the plant to the ground. So on those occasions when we simply must prune it, we make sure there are replacement plants coming along in the greenhouse, just in case. What I try to do instead is to remove wayward branches one at a time, so the plant won't "notice" on any one day that it's been pruned. That seems to work."

Yet perversely I just read a report from forum member in zone 8b who pruned her Marechal Niel without any adverse effects. So who knows for sure? I guess with MN you just have to take your chances.

One thing I do know. Those of us in zones 6-8a must make do with roses like Casino, Graham Thomas and The Pilgrim. Those in zones 7b-8a would do well with one of the other Tea-Noisettes. DUCHESSE D'AUERSTADT, in particular, seems to be forum favorite.

Here are two more of Nearlywild's pics of DUCHESSE D'AUERSTADT. Not bad for a "substitute".
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{{gwi:253763}}

Here is a link that might be useful: Duchesse d'Auerstadt at HelpMeFind Roses

Patrick--I live in Northern California and have MN from Vintage. After almost 3 years in the ground, my MN was about 4 feet tall by 6 feet wide. It bloomed like crazy in spring, a smattering of rebloom in summer and then a nice fall rebloom. I had to move this rose recently. I cut it back to about 2 X 2. I did try to pre-cut a 1 foot root ball for about 1 1/2 months, but the back part of the rose was near a fence and I could not finish the circle. When I moved it, I yanked it out of the ground, breaking a few anchor and feeder roots. It's new location is a bit shadier in the mid to late afternoon. I was not really sure what would happen, but I never expected it to already have new growth and BLOOMS only 1 1/2 months after transplanting. This MN is truly a strong speciman. I will never again be afraid to prune it, though why would I as it is now supposed to scramble up the 8 foot fence in front of which it now resides. I will take a picture of MN once the blooms have opened. Two years ago we had a 4 or 5 day period of 20 degree temps and last year it did reach the low 20's once or twice. MN did just fine. It does get very hot here during summer, but I am close to the coast and also get some overcast, though rarely fog.

I think more folks should give MN a try. Buy it own root from Vintage as my MN is doing quite well.

Joanne

Joanne -- I think the key to your success with MN may be:

"It does get very hot here during summer . . . "

In my location, it almost never gets "very hot," which I personally consider
to be a great blessing.
Kim Rupert insists that MN and the other yellow Noisettes need some real heat to
perform well -- and that seems to fit my personal experience of them.

Reve d'Or does well here.
But Duchesse d'Auerstadt is a 4-ft-tall shrub here.

I'm betting that William Allen Richardson may do as well here as its parent,
but the jury's still out on that one.
In fact, we've moved our little W.A.R. into the little greenhouse, to
give it a boost.

Jeri

Mn does OK for me here in central NC. No dieback, but I do have some of the balling from the humidity. It gets big,too. The smell of this rose is amazing!!! Denise

Jeri--you are probably right about MN. Today it is only 71 and overcast, but we just went through a hot spell for 5 days of 90+°. I would say our average summer temperature is about 78° to 80°. I am planning on getting Reve d'Or, which is your fault. I have read so many posts with your raves about RdO, that I fear I cannot be without it. WAR sounds enticing as well...I guess the Vintage sale for $7.50 per plant might be something to consider...

Good for you!
I don't think you could do better than those.

If you want to see something spectacular, catch these yellowy TeaNoisettes in the
San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, in the spring.

OR for that matter Reve d'Or in the Sacramento City Cemetery.
I think the Cemetery's RdO is the finest I've ever seen.

Jeri

Here are some questions for growers of Reve d'Or. Does RdO do well with less than 6 hours of sun? I know some of the noisettes do well with a little less, but is RdO one of them? I ask, because I currently have Bouquet d'Or in a slightly shady spot and it is not growing very rapidly. I thought I might move it and replace it with RdO. Also, how big does RdO get?

Here's RdO in the cemetery -- it's pretty big!

{{gwi:225081}}

But they have another which is left as a big, mounding shrub

{{gwi:312668}}

I have not grown it in less sun -- but I'm inclined to believe you'd get
slower growth, and less bloom?

Jeri

Jeri,

Am I correct in assuming that REVE D'OR has a strong and delightful fragrance?

Folks let try and keep this thread going. The Noisettes are very beautiful Old Garden Roses and more people need to know about them. Especially the fragrant cultivars. LOL!

Image of BOUQUET D'OR by Riku-Z3-Canada previously posted at the Antique Roses Gallery. The devotion it must take to keep this rose thriving in zone 3 is truly amazing.
{{gwi:312671}}

I love my Bouquet d'Or and its fragrance is divine. That is why I want to move it from its slightly shady spot--currently it gets almost 6 hours in the late summer, fall and early winter months. Then as spring approaches it gets closer to 4 hours. It is too bad this isn't the reverse as it would probably perform better. It is in this location I would like to try Reve d'Or. My theory is that Reve d'Or is quite vigorous and would clamor up to the sun faster. I think it might get more sun at the top of the trellis than at the bottom in the shadier spring months.

Am I correct in assuming that REVE D'OR has a strong and delightful fragrance?

*** Probably.
But I don't have a really good sense of smell -- some things I can smell, others
I can't smell at all.

Jeri

My Reve d'Ors have grown like wildfire. They smell quite good in a fresh, fruity way. I have two on an archway right in front of my house that I have to cut back regularly and get more compliments on these than any other. They are really eye-catching and healthy.

Celine Forestier is fun for me because I'm never quite sure exactly what color the blooms will be, they all seem just a little different. It smells really nice, too.

Lamarque blooms a lot for me and has really nice, fresh-smelling blooms.

My Juane Desprez was a mistreated (by me) band that is now coming out of its slow start, but has only bloomed a couple times and did seem to have a nice fragrance.

Fragrance-wise and bloom-wise, Madame Alfred Carriere beats them all. I can't remember a time she has been without a bloom at least March - December in the three years I have had her. And her smell...oh, for my nose it is just the essence of what a rose is supposed to smell. It reminds me of a rose perfume my grandma used to have; nicely heady and old-rose-like.

Vintage as MN on sale??? Oh lord.... LOL!!! If only I had room (or should I just get it and cross my fingers that it doesn't eat my house?).

Tenor Peggy--get it! Mine has been slow to grow, though it did reach 4 feet high and 6 feet wide by the age of 2 1/2 years in the ground from a band. I expect it would have made 5 X 6 by the end of its third year if left in its original location as it has at least one foot of new growth as I write this. As I just discovered, it does not mind pruning. You will be able to keep it within bounds. So, go for it!

Vintage carries MN but right now it is only available as a custom-rooted rose. I'm considering ordering it myself, but I'll wait until it is a regular offering. I'm tempted by Bouquet d'Or and Duchesse d'Auerstadt too but will have to figure out where to plant them.

My Reve d'Or did very well for a few years but looks pretty sad right now. I suspect that the irrigation to that part of the garden was inadequate, and Tom is working on improving it. I have high hopes for a renewal there. Meanwhile, I think a bit of hand watering is in order.

Rosefolly

One I've been intrigued by is Chromatella or Cloth of Gold. Can anyone give any details about it? HMF says it is a seedling of Lamarque.

Coming in late with a few notes:

Jeri, my Jaune Desprez (grafted) didn't bloom its first year but grew steadily. Five years later it's twenty feet tall and a good bloomer, in spite of part shade and poor ground.

MN is one rose I would recommend to get grafted if you want it to get big. Mine is twenty feet tall (same size and age as JD), easy to grow (but it likes my conditions) and doesn't resent pruning. I resent pruning: I just hate cutting off all that lovely rampant growth and the beautiful foliage. It's as beautiful as everyone says.

As far as I can judge, Duchesse d'Auerstaedt is the brightest Tea-Noisette of them all: quite a strong golden yellow. It's another big, healthy, beautiful rose. My roses do get plenty of summer heat but not much water, and they're not pampered as to soil.

All three of these roses are fragrant. To my nose DdA and MN are tea-scented, while JD has a musk rose fragrance.

Melissa

Melissa -- Thank you -- that is encouraging.
And I am VERY pleased to hear that Jaune Desprez tends to the Musk side of
the fragrance range.
I can rarely smell Teas, but I can dependably smell moschata in almost
any form.

I am just back from a wonderful day in the Sacramento City Cemetery,
followed by a special Rose Rustle in the Sierra Foothills.
I'm still on Cloud 9. :-)

Jeri

Marechal Niel is not as tender as it is said to be. Mine came through the big Eater freeze unblemished last spring. He is among the very first roses to bloom in spring.

Frustrating? Yes! It does get botrytis and thrips love to damage the blooms that are always plenty on this climber.

There seems to be some interest in MARECHAL NIEL, over at the Roses Forum, so I'm reviving this thread.

Patrick

checked HMF briefly on Tea-Noisettes; although it indicated most were hardy only to zone 7b, a couple in which I am interested (either Jaune Desprez or Crepuscule) were noted as hardy to 6b.

Is that correct (granted, there are microclimates, etc., but what works, esp. on the east coast, zones 6b & 7a)?

HMF, again, shows JD as very disease resistant; note on Crepuscule is just that it requires full sun. Neither, apparently, requires Spring protection.

I am finalizing my list to order, and would like to know about the disease resistance on these roses. I have Rev 'd Or, Jaune Deprez, and Crepuscule. Are there others in the midwest that can chime in on disease resistance of Duchesse D' Auerstadt, Bouquet d' Or, Celine Forestier, and Lamarque?

I would like to see this thread continue since there is good information here. This is not an attempt to hyjack the thread, but to enhance it as well as keep it alive.

Sammy

Sammy, good idea to keep this post going. I needed to reread it.

I have Reve d'or, Chromatella, Duchesse d'Auerstadt, Crepuscule and E. Veyrat Hermanos in the ground but only for 3 - 9 months. They're all very small but healthy with thin canes. Reve d'Or & Chrom are oldest and did quite well against BS, considering that their young age makes them more susceptible, right?

I bought Lamarque 2 weeks ago to "shade" my Don Juans. I plan to put up a rebar arbor (Sacrament Cemetery type) right next to the Don Juans' arbor in hopes that Lamarque's foliage will give DJs a break from all the southern sun they get. I think the white and red blooms should be pretty spectacular.

I have an order coming from Ashdown (Christmas gift certificate - whoopie!) with Wm Allen Richardson (love that color!) and Jaune Desprez. Any rose that loves heat is the rose for me! Cass has a piece on her website about a Jaune Desprez plant growing well next to a commercial building in a very narrow strip of ground between the bldg and the parking lot. That is what cinched it for me. I plan to grow it on my garage wall in that skinny strip next to the front walk.

I've probably got a couple of years to wait for good size and blooms, but I'm willing.

I sure hope they do well for you, Sammy. Hopefully, you have several south-facing spots that get nice and hot.

Sherry

Sherry, William Allen Richardson is a favorite of mine -- and oddly enough, I've
never actually grown it until now.
A friend, (probably tired of my whining) made us a gift of one, not long ago.
It's growing lustily in a little 1.5-G pot, and by spring will probably be
ready for a spot in the ground.

Sammy, I'm not going to chime in on your disease-resistance questions,
because my experiences here just won't be relevant for you.

Jeri

I had what was definitely a Jaunes Desprez "dud" - grew for 4-5 years into a vigorous vine but not one bud EVER. I finally gave up on it. I garden just inland & uphill of Venice Beach, an area that has coastal conditions 85% of the time. We almost never get hot in summer until mid-August and after Labor Day we are often cool in the evening. I've found that the yellow Tea-Noisettes may be my favorite group of roses, but they are not truly happy here except in Sept-Oct when we get some hot dry weeks. I grew a grafted Duchess d'Auerstadt from Ashdown which got quite big. After 3 years, it was quite a prolific bloomer -this was after moving it from 2 other locations that simply weren't hot enough. Unfortunately, the cool climate here & coastal conditions turned most of the blossoms into used yellow balls of kleenex, which was not a pretty sight. I haven't had much luck with any other yellow T-N's, altho I've tried many. Crepuscule is finally growing and blooming in a tough hot dry spot by the driveway altho it did nothing in 3 or 4 other more "prime" locations. Since Jeri praises Rev d'Or, I'm going to give it another try.

I live west of CharlotteNC, and am planning a trip this fall to Laurens SC to visit Roses Unlimited to shop for a climbing noisette. I want to replace a dud New Dawn. I've waited out my three years. I have a home made arbor in good hot sun. The arbor is built as a right angle (90 degrees) and I'd hoped the New Dawn would fill out both directions. There is a Zephie on one end. And two Duchess d' Brebant and a Blush Noisette in front I thought I wanted a Jaune Deprez for the color choice. After waiting three years for the New Dawn to impress me I don't want another slow growing seldom blooming rose. Can we revive this thread?

Have fun at RU, a group of us went there when they were having their sale and came home with over 50 roses. Marechal Niel was one of them. It's still small in a pot, but has not shown any disease, and I've been avoiding spraying it. I don't have Juan Deprez, but I can attest to Reve d'Or and Crepescule as being exception growers and bloomers and both are also disease resistant. In our area, that is a big plus. I have not really noticed that either of them are very fragrant, but they are great roses even without that.

Marechal Niel is very fragrant (for a rose of this class) but I somehow doubt it can thrive in zone 7.

Buford. Fifty roses on sale! What a great trip. Do Roses Unlimited have good display gardens like ARE? I've never seen a Noisette in person except my BN. I don't have space to grow every Rose I'd like to see

They do have a display garden, but I always seem to go there in the hottest part of summer so I've never seen it in bloom. I think they will do well in zone 7, I am in zone 7 and most of the noisettes and teas do well here. You might have an issue if we have another polar vortex, but even then, they will come back.

Yes lets revive this thread! I love tea noisettes!

Most fragrant Tea-Noisettes:

Top T-N for both type of scent and strength of scent:Duchesse d'Auerstadt

A vendor was selling a row of huge plants (budded onto root stock) of Duchess d. A. at the Old Rose Celebration a few years ago and all the large plants were in full bloom and I was kicking myself for having ran out of cash for it was the most fragrant of any Tea-Noisette I'd ever smelled at vintage gardens or at s.j. h. rose garden... The apricot colored blooms with a touch of pink were large and luscious and scented of stone fruit, and Musk rose, heady and seductive... at that moment I wondered why so many people favor Reve d'Or in comparison. FFFF, out of five.

___________

Marachal Niel, almost as fragrant, as the Duchesse,

I bought my M.N. from Rogue Valley. My favorite yellow rose, and if it were the only yellow rose in the world I might be content, I adore it so much.

FFF and 1/2 out of five. on some enchanting and rare afternoons it's as strongly scented as FFFF.

____________

Celine Forestier. It's 2016 and the plant is c. seven years old, it came from Rogue Valley and it blooms fully in spring, however rebloom in summer and autumn is only c. 25- 30 percent of the spring flush. It has a really lovely refined fragrance that is dependable, under all conditions and more than moderate in strength. If only I could find a well repeating clone.

FFF and 1/2 out of five.

__________________

Mme. Alfred Carriere, from hortico.com c. 7 years ago, moderate fragrance, dependably fragrant.

FFF

__________________

Reve d'Or sweet rose scent overlaid with Musk Rose.
FF and 1/2 out of five. from Rogue Valley roses.

_____________________

I can only rarely detect any scent from the Lamarque that I bought from A.R.E., it has a slight lemon scent scent with a meadow finish... and it's foliage is not nearly as pretty as the one at Morcom Amphitheare of Roses labeled California 'Lamarque' .The blooms are very beautiful but it's not the rose I so fiercely desired.

FF out of five.

______________

Crepescule from vintagegardens.com

variable fragrance strength under different conditions.

F to FF and 1/2 out of five.

__________________________________

I never bought Jaune Desprez because it smells strongly of bananas to me, a nice scent but not what I'm looking for in a rose.

That is a darling photo of Bouquet d'Or.

Luxrosa

Two fragrant ones I grow are 'Manchester guardian angel' & 'pleasant hill cemetery'. Both were from Vintage. Crepuscle loves the heat in Tx. I planted a 2 gal size plant in Austin that grew into a sprawling 12'x10' by the end of it's second growing season. It blooms often, but I can't detect a fragrance. I don't have the best sense of smell for tea-noisettes and teas though.

Buford, let us know how MN does for you in your climate. Do you plan on keeping it in a pot so you can overwinter it?

Right now it's in a small pot. I almost thought I lost it. We had a very warm and dry late summer/fall. I neglected watering the pots, and forgot the angle of the sun changed so some were dried out. But MN came back. I may have lost one or two others, I'm not sure yet. I usually keep the pots outside unless we are going to get REALLY cold, below freezing for a length of time so the pots can get frozen solid. I wanted to plant some this fall, but with not having rain for almost 2 months, I am sure the ground is hard as a rock. At least it has cooled off now, so the plants aren't drying out that much. No hard frost yet though.

Luxrosa, I got "Atmore Lamarque" from rosepetals and that may be the Lamarque you are looking for. Jeri and Dr. Manners, I thought, found it virus free and mine is doing well so far <6 months old. My ARE Lamarque got some kind of downy mildew/black spot last Fall, but this Fall not so and seems to be recovering and maybe is will also be OK but clearly not the super healthy star the "Atmore" should be.

Thanks Sheila for the information,

Could you, or anyone else, please describe the scent of Atmore Lamarque to me?

type of scent

strength of scent.

Thanks, Lux.

Luxrosa, I have allergies so not the best nose but I found it had a lovely lemon fresh fragrance. Jeri Jennings would know more. It is a beautiful plant and I hope it likes it here. I'm leaving it in a pot in a sheltered outdoor alcove for the first winter, and I can haul it or Jesse Hildreth #2 into the shop if it gets too cold. I bet you'd love it!