>>>others say this HT is BS prone but will anything eliminate it?

*** If you have one rose that is a continuing problem, the logical solution is to remove that rose,
and replace it with something that is not so troubled.

>>> where does one buy a respirator?

*** Any garden center or gardening supply store will sell them. You can also buy them on line.
NO ONE should spray with any pesticide unless they have read and understood the directions and cautions on the label,
and are using appropriate safety equipment.
That would include the use of chemical gloves when pouring materials.
If you spill spray material on your clothes, remove them immediately, and wash your skin thoroughly.
Double wash contaminated clothing, with no other clothing in the washer.

Jeri Jennings

I still have some blackspot, but not on the new leaves. What happens is that when you have a breakout of it (as I had) and you spray, the leaves that were already exposed and far enough along will still get bs. If they are really bad, they fall off. If not (and the Bayer has done its job and stopped the fungus) they stay on.

You can either leave them and ignore them (since it's over 100 outside, that's my plan) or pull them off.

Lesson- next year start spraying earlier.

Bayer Advanced has been touted as the "Silver Bullet" of sprays that will perform marvelous things for rosarians, BUT IT JUST AIN'T SO! If you want to be rid of your BS, email me direct and I will tell you how to be rid of it, and how to be virtually BS free throughout the blooming season. You can buy a respirator from Rosemania, see link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rosemania

Come on Roseman, tell us all your secret! You sound like an infomercial! LOL!

I've had EXCELLENT results using nothing but Bayer Advanced Disease Control this year. But, just like you have to do with ANY fungicide, you have to start early. If you start after you have BS, you have to keep it up and wait a while to see results.

Barbara

With all the rain we had earlier this year my roses have had a real time with disease. Blackspot has been a problem, but minor compared to spot Anthracnose. So to help with the Anthracnose I thought I'd try something other then my regular Banner Maxx spray (which doesn't mention being effective against Anthracnose on the label). I tried the Bayer Advanced Disease Control for the first time (which btw says it CURES - not just prevents - disease). Well, it may help the Anthracnose, but it sure doesn't do anything with blackspot. Blackspot is spreading like wildfire on the roses that had only a minor outbreak. Since the daytime temperatures are approaching 100 or more, it's not as if we have prime blackspot conditions. It's got to be the Bayer is providing no protection against whatever race of B.S. I have. I'm going back to Banner Maxx, and will try and figure something else out for the spot Anthracnose.

I have had a bad year with blackspot also, and I have been using the Bayer along with some other sprays as well. However, I have also been using Messenger. Have you checked out my preliminary results in the gallery? If not, please look and comment.

Here is a link that might be useful: Preliminary Messenger test results

I know roseman is an advocate of Manzate or Mancozeb...sorry if I don't know what it is called exactly. Messenger is also for BS? And what about Banner Maxx? I am just learning about all of these things.

I did start spraying too late this year so live and learn. However, doesn't this mean that the Bayer A.D.C. does not cure BS, only prevents it?

Since none of my other roses have any BS, I don't feel the need to spray weekly now, only bi-weekly. But, will that be enough for Heirloom, since it is still BS-ing a lot?

What I usually see if I wait for blackspot before I start regular spraying is that a few more spots will show even after I start spraying. I assume those are spots that were developing before I sprayed. The leaves will continue to turn yellow and fall off for a week or so, but after that the blackspot stops and some of the leaves with spots will stay green and stay on the plant. So right now my Peace has leaves with spots, but those leaves are still green and won't fall off. Even though Peace still has spots, the blackspot has stopped. I consider that a cure as some of the infected leaves stay green and productive.

I think that what you are seeing on Heirloom is probably the old leaves with spots. If it really is a continuing infection you might want to try alternating with another fungicide as it is possible that your blackspot is resistant to the bayer.

Messenger is a special type of protein that is supposed to increase the plants natural resistance to infection. A couple of people have tried it and say it works. You can use it in addition to any other sprays. Banner Maxx is another type of fungicide.

I've used Mancozeb for the control of B.S. combined with Banner Maxx once an outbreak occurs. It worked. Since I'm fairly good about spraying I usually don't have that much of a problem with B.S., but when it's pouring down rain it's impossible to spray. And before you know it"POOF" the little blackspot fairy waves her magic wand and spots appear before your eyes. My first line of defense against B.S. is to pitch those roses that are not immune at all. But after that I want to arrest further damage. The Bayer did zero to protect my uninfected foliage even after I pulled off all the leaves that had visable signs. I'm back to the Mancozeb/Banner Maxx combo.

I have used Banner Max alternating with Compass every two weeks and still got the BS. I upped my spraying to every 10 days and thigs are looking much better. Still some spots but just spots. No yellowing.

Red Sox,

My suggestion is to sp Heritage. Bayer will cure BS, I saw it for myself in my gardens. I had 1 problem rose that I could not fix, and after some studying found that it was one of the worst BS magnets ever introduced! I pulled it the next day. Do yourself a favor and replace that rose with something that will not be such a headache.

I use Banner Maxx and Compass, alternating them. The only trouble with blackspot I've had this year came from plants that became infected at the nursery. Everything else in my raised garden is free of all fungus...

Now, if only I could say the same for the rain spotting. So disappointing!

Okay, I have an idea. I do not have the knowledge that others do. But I did this..

Take newspaper and put it around that rose. Then put some new topsoil around that rose. BS is a spore. So if you keep the spore from getting to the leaves. Obviously it will not help with a current breakout. Spray for that.

If you apply a fungicide and still see blackspot, does that mean the fungicide is not doing its job? Probably not. Probably the performance of a fungicide can be approximated with a degree of control number (DOC), where DOC is the percent of bs spores entering your garden which are actually killed by the fungicide. Suppose fungicide X has a DOC of 99%. That means 1% of the spores entering your garden would be free to cause infection. If the spore count is a low number, you will see almost no infections, but if the spore count is high, you will see a high number of infections.

It seems reasonable that applying two different fungicides with different modes of action, in concert, might lead to a multiplier effect on the total DOC. For example, suppose surface fungicide X and systemic fungicide Y both have a DOC of 99%. If you spray X and Y together, X would allow only 1% of the spores on a leaf to germinate and, then, Y might allow only 1% of this 1% to actually infect the leaf. Since 1% of 1% is 0.01%, the total DOC of the combined spray would be 99.99%. Putting it another way, when you spray X and Y together, you might see only 1% of the infections you see when you spray either X or Y alone.

This multiplier effect, if it exists, would be useful even when one or both of the fungicides has a low DOC. For example, it used to be a common practice to mix sulfur with most synthetic fungicides. Sulfur, by itself, probably has a low DOC but if the multiplier effect operates, sulfur sprayed in concert with a modern synthetic fungicide might lead to significantly better control. For example, suppose sulfur has a DOC of only 90% and you spray it in concert with a modern synthetic fungicide with a DOC of 99%. Sprayed together, you might see only 1/10 the number of infections you see when the modern synthetic is sprayed alone.

The multiplier effect might be one way to increase the low DOC observed with organic sprays. The problem might be that many organic sprays are not mutually compatible (oil with sulfur, for one example) or have such similar modes of action that a multiplier effect might not operate.

I recall that MichaelG once proposed mixing sulfur with WiltPruf to control blackspot. This would represent one possible combination of two, more or less organic, sprays. How did that turn out?

Mike R-- Sulfur with Wilt Pruf caused mild spray burn with temperatures in the 80s. Maybe one of the synthetic antitranspirants would work better, or maybe Wilt Pruf could be used in spring and fall. I'll try to remember to try it in October.

redsox-- "doesn't this mean that the Bayer A.D.C. does not cure BS, only prevents it?"

No. Tebuconazole cures infections up to a certain stage. As Athena noticed, recently visible spots can be arrested with no further damage. Beyond that stage, the leaf is internally damaged and will die, regardless of what happens to the fungus. The link is to a dissertation that proves the curative power of tebuconazole on rose blackspot.

I wouldn't adjust my spray program because of one rose. As mgleason suggests, I'd get rid of the bad rose. However, if you start spraying earlier next year, Heirloom might do OK.

Here is a link that might be useful: study

I'm only saying to sp because that is what cured all my problems when I finally got rid of my Soleil d'Or. No matter what I sprayed, or how often I just could not keep the BS off this plant. I should have known better to even buy it looking at its geneology.

That makes me sad. I love the color of Heirloom and it seems that most purples are BS prone. Purple is my favorite color. I will start spraying early next year or try Banner Maxx as well. If that all fails I will have to either live with it or dump it.

redsox, I'd wait. Blackspot tends to vary from year to year. This year I have a lot in roses I never had it on before, and not on ones that usually have it.

If you love the rose, it's worth making an effort next year to spray and see what happens.

If Heirloom was just planted this season, it may well outgrow its vulnerability to BS after another season or two. With maturity, some roses become more vigorous and able to resist diseases. So maybe try it out one more year before you make a final decision.

Kate

redsox, I'm not clear on whether you are seeing the old blackspot damage on the previously infected leaves or if you are also seeing blackspot on the new growth. Please let us know. Once infected and once the blackspots occur, they are permanent. The fungicide won't "erase" those old spots.

When you say Since none of my other roses have any BS, I don't feel the need to spray weekly now, only bi-weekly. , realize that this is because you have been spraying to prevent the fungus from taking hold on your plants. You might find that you have to keep spraying weekly to keep your plants protected. Or, you might find that every two weeks is enough. That would be good.

Mancozeb and manzate are two names for fungicides with the same active ingredient (mancozeb). You'll also find it under the names "maneb" or "Pentathlon". Mancozeb is a surface fungicide. Banner Maxx (active ingredient is propiconazole) is a systemic fungicide. Other fungicides with the same active ingredient (propiconazole) are Bonide Infuse and Fertilome Systemic.

I use a combination of BannerMaxx and mancozeb (see "My Page").

As noted above, Messenger is derived from Harpin protein and is not a fungicide, but is used to increase the ability of a plant to resist disease (which, in theory, should lead to the reduction or elimination in the need for fungicide sprays; perhaps a reduction from my observation, but I have no controls).

We are using Bayer Advanced again this season...and we find it an improvement over years that we didnt use it.But gosh roseman.....you got my curiousity up!....cant you tell all of us what your secret to......no blackspot....is?

I had Heirloom for 6 years with no blackspot. It was in my top 10 list of roses... Then we had a blackspot 'year'. It was covered from head to toe. I removed every leaf that showed signs religiously, daily for weeks. Removed all of the underlaying soil, leaves, mulch etc... (I don't spray) Nothing stopped it. Finally my 6 year old Heirloom was Spd, and I still miss it. Nothing quite that color has come along to replace it yet.

If the weather conditions are right, a plant that is susceptible will get the disease. It doesn't matter how old the plant is, it's in the genes...

Thanks for the explanation. So, if Banner Maxx is a systemic, is it a drench or a spray?

I think the BS is confined to the old leaves, but I am not absolutely positive.

Banner Maxx is sprayed on, as is mancozeb. The only product that is labled as a "drench" is Bayer Advanced All-in-One, which is a combination systemic fungicide, insecticide and fertilizer.

You will find that you may have to use more then one type of fungicide for different problems. But the combination of Mancozeb and Banner Maxx is a pretty good pairing. Mike Rivers explanation of DOC was well put I thought. Personally I wouldn't use any product with an insecticide in it(the Bayer drench) unless the insect damage was pretty bad and I knew what I was killing.

Propiconazole (Banner, Infuse) and tebuconazole (Bayer) are very similar, have the same mode of action, and I've seen no evidence that propiconazole is superior. Quite a number of posters here have felt that tebuconazole is superior. The main advantage might be that it is less phytotoxic and so can be used at shorter (7-day) intervals if needed.

I don't think it would be worthwhile purchasing a second, very similar product. If you want to do something more, tank-mix the Bayer with mancozeb or (in cooler weather) Daconil. This might give a slight improvement. I doubt that doing so is necessary to keep Heritage growing and blooming. I wouldn't put Heritage on a two-week schedule just yet.

There is a thi8ng called Intergrated Pest Management. It basically says to inspect your garden daily for pests and see if there is another way of dealing with them, like picking off blackspotted leaves as they start. It also says is the problem big enough to need to use chemicals.
I walk thru my rose garden everyday. This way I know what's going on. If I see bs starting on a plant I can pick off those leaves. if it is one plant that's worse than the others, yes, remove it. I dug up Peace for that reason.
If you know you will have bs, start off the season with a good spray program and you won't have it at all. Unless it's raining all the time and you can't do it like what happened to me a few years ago!
These are just some suggestions to help you.

It's amazing how walking through the garden and picking infected leaves off of a bush helps with controlling disease. Recently my found roses "Maggie" and "Valentine" got some blackspot on about 25% of the bush after some thunderstormy weather. I didn't want to spray, so I picked the leaves off and told them to shape up and cut the nonsense. It halted the problem and they are growing plenty of new leaves with no further problems. However, these 2 roses do not have a problem as a rule, except certain times of the year.

I've gotten rid of all the problem roses. I guess after raising 5 teenagers I don't have a tolerance for anything that acts up anymore. (The teenagers have all become delightful adults).

Sandy

if a spray doesn't prevent bs magnets from getting bs,doesn't it seem logical that they don't work? i know this sounds a little curt, but i refuse to use them as the only result i figure is that they kill the good stuff that eats the fungus or competes with it also. obviously there is no cure for bs. Just possible preventions.

Doesn't seem to be any cure for your B.S. anyway.

I've had remarkable success with Bayer this year. I just found this site this Spring and read the great reviews on Bayer, Before I had used Immunox mainly which is not effective for my roses with BS. When I first started I didn't think I had enough roses to warrant the cost of Banner Maxx which seems quite a bit more expensive compared to the price of Bayer. For the price, I'm sticking with Bayer.

I had the same problem as Redsox a few years ago. I was spraying Banner Maxx and Manzate every 14 days and still getting blackspot. I started spraying in March, which should be early enough to prevent BS, but to no avail.

What finally solved the problem in my garden was upping the amount of Banner Maxx per gallon in the spray tank.

I followed the higher dosage recommended on the Rosemania spray reference chart, which is 2/3 teaspoon per gallon.

LOL Pete.