A new take on own-root vs grafted for me

10 years ago

I have long been a supporter of own root roses. Most of the time it makes sense to me, except in the case of roses that are too feeble to make it on their own. I don't grow many of those.

However, I am weary of roses that spread enthusiastically by underground suckers in the attempt to take over large patches of real estate. My two worst offenders are the rugosa 'Dart's Dash' and the gallica 'La Belle Sultane'. I find myself pruning out suckers by the dozens, maybe even hundreds, every few weeks. It is a tedious chore, and one that is completely avoidable.

Now that Pickering is once again available to gardeners in the USA, I have taken advantage of the opportunity to order grafted versions of these two from them, along with 'Maiden's Blush', 'Tuscany Superb', and 'Rosa Mundi'. TS is only suckering lightly so far but it is young and I suspect it will get worse over time. RM reverted to the Apothecary Rose and I wanted to replace it anyway.

I keep saying that I will give up on the OB-OGRs. There are other roses better suited to my climate. (I grow them, too.) But I really do like the gallicas, albas, and damasks.

Fingers crossed!

Rosefolly

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Comments (19)

roseseek
10 years ago
That is one definite advantage to a budded versus own root plant, Rosefolly. If you have sufficient real estate and like them colonizing themselves, that's great. If not, either eliminating the offenders from your garden or obtaining them budded are the two recourses. I don't blame you one bit. Been there, done both. Kim
mendocino_rose
10 years ago
I absolutely hate suckers. They are a huge headache in my garden. I took one Gallica out(I thought) but the suckers keep emerging. At this point i don't even trust a grafted plant. it's always possible they could take root.
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Each region of the country is a little different.. From wasted amounts of dollars in north east, I can tell you, that HTs, floribundas, grandiflorias, etc.. just do not hack it year after year.. Sure with deeply buried grafts and some winter covering, they will last longer, but after trying dozens of these varieties, I found one that did OK in my zone and that was Sunset Celebration, that would typically have around 6 inches of cane left, it did very well for 4-5 years and wasnt a complete blackspot disaster as well. Granted I havnt tried every variety, but where I had them was basically in front of the house at the time, I just wanted lower bushes becuase the windows were not high there. No worries there as they never got above 4-5 feet max in any giving year. I tried alot of the popular ones, ala Oklohoma, Mr Lincoln, Double Delight, Sunset Celebration, Christinan Dior, I cant really remember all of them now, Oh I know I had a Queen Elizabeth in there as well. I tried alot more including stuff like Victorian Spice. But I couldnt picture not buying repeat flowering varieties at the time.. I pictured dozens of blooms throughout the season. I spend hundreds of dollars on these.. none of them lasted more than 4-5 years really. Then I discovered gardenweb, I also relized that my garden season is pretty short, mid june to late august. A OGR rose that blooms for 4-6 weeks can be a third of my season. Alot of these also are highly fragrant, BS resistand and hardy. I basically order 4-5 hardies now and a couple of moderns a year or remonont ones that I try to keep alive. Even though I had very good success with Austins in my zone 5a (close to 4b garden) , they hated my move to my new house, I lost alot of these for some reason.. even though I didnt lose a one of my OGR's the austins after transplant just shrivled and died on me, except for the hardiest varieties, they all appears to have survived in thier pots covered over winter, but I guess they just didnt like it. Bucks did nothing for me, I tried over a dozen of these that died as well.. The one caveat is I didnt try some of the hardiest ones like applejack or quiteness, basically becuase I had two dozen austins at the time , alot were already pink or pink blends and I didnt see room on adding these. I tried all of the blends that looked nice to my eye, and they all died, winter sunset, prarie sunrise, harvest, honeysweet... etc.. none of them made it here. Its up to you, but to me, plant where you live, if your willing to take the losses, plant what you like. But there are hundreds of different roses that are hardier than HT's that have great form and fragrance, including OGR's and some modern shrubs. Silverkelt
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Interesting Post! I've been an advocate of own-root roses for several years, but I have to admit grafted (if healthy) almost always seem to grow bigger (or at least as big). A main reason I like own-roots is they seem particularly well-suited to life in a pot, so Ceterum's question about growing them first in a pot might actually be a key factor to success. I know from experience that roses on Fortuniana (down here in the South, at least) will grow the biggest of all. That's precisely why I avoid it. Dr. Huey I don't like simply because the root structure is one of long central tap-roots that always find their way quickly out the bottom of the pot and aren't happy confined. But small doesn't always mean weak or unhappy. I heard a rule of thumb years ago that seems to be mostly true; that varieties which tend toward bushiness/many branches will tend also to develop good roots. I've had many own-root roses, about half of them minis but the rest mostly hybrid teas, and the HTs vary a lot. Many old and newer do great own-root; some don't. I've lost count of the roses I've given to neighbors and friends because they had gotten too big to be happy in pots. Once in the ground they quickly get even bigger. But back to Ceterum's question about letting the young roses mature some first in pots: Maybe that's the key. The one's I've given away after 2-4 years tend to do terrific in the ground; they've had lots of time to build up a good root system in friable potting soil and without competition from neighboring plants and trees. Incidentally, some of the hybrid teas I've grown own-root that did very well include: Paradise, Gold Medal, the old HT Mrs. Herbert Stevens (really more of a tea), Lady Luck, Fragrant Plum, Tiffany, Helmut Schmidt, Touch of Class, Artistry, Timeless, and Olympiad. Radiance is OK own-root, but I wonder if it would do better grafted. Some new ones for me that look promising are Deep Secret(kind of slow its first year but now looking bushy and vigorous, though still short, its 2nd spring), Dame de Coeur, Lagerfeld (still kind of gangly but growing big--I only got it last fall), all 3 I just got from Roses Unlimited, including Jardins de Bagatelle, Chrysler Imperial, and Papa Meilland (Ceterum had cautioned that PM may take 3-4 years to come into its own, but already it had 3 flower buds and it just came in mid-March. JdB has already produced 4 gorgeous blooms and seems to want to repeat rapidly, even continously! CI looks great too. Alec's Red is 1 year old and small but healthy and blooming well. A few HTs I thought were happier grafted include: Fragrant Cloud, Mr. Lincoln, Valencia, Just Joey, Double Delight, and Honor. The others I'm excited about are all mini floras or minis, so I guess they don't count for this discussion, since they're always own-root. But Man! Leading Lady and Whirlaway might as well be small hybrid teas, the blooms are so big and perfectly formed!
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I always try to be helpful here. It is often difficult to be entirely so because assumptions are made by me as well as the reader. But I would have to write a book rather than brief posts to eliminate as many as possible of both types of assumptions. As those who've read my posts before know, I buy and plant own-roots exclusively (two exceptions to prove the rule). From the Paul Zimmerman article linked below, I quote: "...bareroot plants can be two years old when you get them and some own-root bands can only be 6 months old." Similarly, some own-roots can be older when purchased depending upon your source. And individual rose characteristics are just that - individual. One of those characteristics is vigor. This vigor inherent to the individual rose will vary with climatic factors, etc. But given a good home (aka healthy soil and regular water) in a suitable climate, a well-chosen specimen should with time perform similarly within its preferred climate range. It is the exception rather than the rule that own-roots will grow faster than budded (grafted) roses in the formative, getting established, early years. This certainly would be the exception for own-roots acquired as bands. Bands defined as: "young rooted cuttings." Realistic expectations help prevent unnecessary disappointment and premature criticisms. Here is a link that might be useful: How Soon Can You Prune A Young Rose?
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jerijen
10 years ago
I agree -- but for me, the Multiflora rootstock was itself problematical, in my extremely-alkaline conditions. And ironically, the worst-suckering rose I have EVER grown was an Austin on Multiflora. That multiflora roostock suckered 6-8 feet in every direction.

Jeri
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
10 years ago
I don't think Pickering puts its gallicas on multiflora. Some things are budded on Laxa. I wouldn't mind having a list of such things, but that seems hard to get.
roseseek
10 years ago
Pickering's FAQ sheet states,

"We bud the majority of our roses on R. multiflora and the gallicas, damasks and some odds & ends on R. laxa." As long as they do what they say they do, that should give you the information you desire. Kim
cemeteryrose
10 years ago
We had two Therese Bugnet plantings in the cemetery. One was an extremely mannerly, gorgeous fountain-shaped plant. The other was thuggish and suckered all over the plot in which it was planted, obscuring the monuments and elbowing out the other rose that was planted there. The budded one finally began to sucker, too, and the lovely shape is gone. In general, I prefer own-root roses, but sometimes budding is the way to go. Also, some roses just need the extra oomph. We have a fabulous Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria that Burling budded onto Pink Cloud - and a very nice Blanche de Belgique that I believe in on Manetti - both of them are far nicer than they'd be own-root.
Anita
catsrose
10 years ago
I don't think I've ever had aything on R. Laxa, but Dr. Huey is another rootstock that suckers, so I'm not sure how much grafting would help. And I'm very careful now with anything with multiflora because of RRD. I've no hard science to prove anything, but when RRD swept thru my garden three years ago, it took out everything with multiflora in its genes. Most of my gallicas, rugosas, and the Musk rose survived (the rest were hit or miss). I don't know how RRD would affect rootstock, or the grafts upon it.

I'm lucky I have space for suckering varieties. I have to say the height of Belle Sultane threw me. She remained a modest 3-4 feet for years, with a few mannerly suckers. This year, we have had unending rain and she is suddenly nearly 7' tall and wildly suckering.

I pot up a lot of my suckers and give them away or contribute them to local garden club plant sales.
roseseek
10 years ago
Having dealt with dozens of roses which sucker own root and literally thousands of all types on Huey, I'll take any suckering type ON Huey versus own root any day. Here, Huey mostly suckers where irrigation is too shallow, bringing its roots too close to the surface where any disturbance encourages them to grow. Often, it's been "cultivating" the area around the roses, breaking the feeders and larger roots coming up for air and water. But, that type of mis cultivation can and does cause any stock to sucker. Kim
Kippy
10 years ago
I have a couple of transplanted Huey roses I have to watch for Huey. And I notice Reine des Violettes has several new "babies".

I am keeping an eye on a fat cane on James Galoway, it is either a new fat cane or Doc H popping up.
kittymoonbeam
10 years ago
I would say don't give up on growing a rose you really love if you can try it grafted. Digging a zillion suckers out is hard and eats all the joy out of rose growing. Maybe if you have them in cages and Steve's deer are eating everything beyond the wire...otherwise it's a pain and gets old fast. I hope your grafted plant will behave. And Kim is right about cutting any roots.
cemeteryrose
10 years ago
We have successfully used bamboo barrier in the cemetery to keep suckering plants within bounds. 24" wide PVC sheets. I had strong young people dig them into place thanks to Americorps. They left the barrier above the soil about 3". We have raised burial plots that are similar to raised beds - I've divided the plots with the barrier. I deal with Banshee and I don't think there's any rose that suckers more aggressively, and the barrier works. For most roses, I believe that 18" barrier would probably work, based on how well the cemetery plot surrounds keep the suckering plants in place.
Anita
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
10 years ago
Kim, it's the 'odds and ends' that I need to know about. I think they do spinossisimas on laxa, and quite possibly Kordesii Explorers. Anything else I should be interested in? I don't know.
blackgavotte
10 years ago
Oh Lordy, I'm glad I saw this post... I have moved to the maritimes, with the rocks, fog, dew and wind, not to mention a very wet spring and this summer... am in the process of beginning to order roses that will do best here, most likely rugosas... on the top of my list was to be Dart's Dash, not I'm not sure about own root choices.. sure don't need a part time new job of pulling out suckers ! Here's the short list of what I was considering ordering, on their own roots, from Cornhill .... Dart's Dash, Parfum de l'hay, Marie Bugnet, Polareis, Wasagaming and possibly Queen of Denmark... does anyone know if any or all of these are really bad for suckers other than Dart's Dash? Will watch this post for a few days before ordering... all help is appreciated, don't want to waste money again !
Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev
10 years ago
I actually like roses that sucker. I order from Pickering because I like THEM and want to show my support. But I was hesitant to try their roses after hearing that multiflora rootstock doesn't like alkaline conditions. However, I have had absolutely no issues with any of my roses on multiflora, even with both alkaline soil and water. So there must be something else I have or don't have/do that is different than say Jeri has/does that accounts for why roses on multiflora (or with its genes) do so well for me.

Pickering hasn't updated their website about using laxa as a rootstock. I called last year to ask which of the roses I bought from them were on laxa and which on multiflora. The lady who I spoke with said none of the roses I bought from them were on laxa as they hadn't grafted anything on it (for I forget how many years she said). I expected that some were on laxa (and thought maybe that was why they were so happy in my garden), including the gallica Aimable Rouge, the damasks Duc de Cambridge and Pickering Four Seasons, the spinosissma William's Double Yellow, and the rugosas Wild Edric and Polareis. Not only are they not chlorotic but also Wild Edric (not even fed) and William's Double Yellow have particularly deep green foliage.

Melissa
jerijen
10 years ago
Melissa --

Salinity, and possibly a witches brew of other minerals may be additional factors -- but it is a certainty that roses ON Multiflora, and roses with a multiflora background, all suffer from recurrent bouts of chlorosis here.

We are ancient seabed, and the aquifers that feed the wells from which our water is pumped, do pick up salts. In fact, desal plants have been added in this area, to make heretofore non-potable water, potable.

Since that problem holds true for those roses, almost without exception -- and does NOT trouble other roses -- I now avoid them. Nor do I recommend them for others in my area.

It's not JUST the water, of course. The land up here is:
". . . somewhat excessively drained [with] a surface layer of pale-brown, calcareous loamy sand underlain by light brownish-gray, calcareous, stratified sand and sandy loam. [These soils] are well drained and have a surface layer of grayish-brown, neutral to moderately alkaline sandy loam underlain by grayish- brown, moderately alkaline, calcareous coarse sandy loam."

So, you see, our water is alkaline with excess salinity, and our soils are ditto.

I doubt if you have that ancient seabed problem.

Jeri
lori_elf z6b MD
10 years ago
I like grafted roses from Pickering a lot. Many of my roses do better with the vigor from the rootstock. Multiflora rose does extremely well in my clay soil here. I've never had one sucker on me, except those that are planted deep and sucker on their own roots.
porkpal zone 9 Tx
10 years ago
Most of my successful roses are growing on their own roots and the only one that has suckered extensively is Seven Sisters. Fortunately I have lots of room and a very informal "garden plan" so it matters not at all.
Budded roses sold locally are mostly grown on Dr Huey which does very well in my slightly acid soil - even if the budded rose itself does not thrive.
porkpal zone 9 Tx
10 years ago
Most of my successful roses are growing on their own roots and the only one that has suckered extensively is Seven Sisters. Fortunately I have lots of room and a very informal "garden plan" so it matters not at all.
Budded roses sold locally are mostly grown on Dr Huey which does very well in my slightly acid soil - even if the budded rose itself does not thrive.
porkpal zone 9 Tx
10 years ago
Ooops! Sorry, I didn't mean to repeat myself.

A new take on own-root vs grafted for me

Comments (19)

roseseek

mendocino_rose

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