Kippy, do you EVER get a freeze?

(We officially get 0 chill hours, but we did have one whacking freeze, this past winter.)

I ask because when you use alfalfa, you are going to see a REAL rush of new growth. IF you were to get a freeze, it could impact that tender new growth.

FWIW, we usually use alfalfa to make alfalfa tea. You see results from that VERY quickly.

Jeri

We do get freezes, I can even remember breaking ice 1/4" thick off the chickens water bowls. Back in the day when I was a kid, you could hear the orchard fans running on those frost warning nights. But mostly we get frost some time the end of December to early February a few times. Roses are all at the top of the hill where the air moves more, the bottom of the property is in a cold air drain pattern for one section.

We have a bin to make tea in, but with a big compost bin to toss some in to heat things up and all the big veggie garden getting ready to clear and plant a fall cover crop plus the winter veggie garden, throwing some pellets around seems so much easier than hauling and making tea. I don't think our hillside is anywhere near as steep as Kims, but it still gets very old at the end of the day to head up and down the hill all day.

And it is getting close to the annual great persimmon picking and give away month (October) so I am trying to figure out what has to be done in September. Dad was going to "make his next million" selling persimmons. Even after cutting down and pruning, I still have weeks of work picking those things.

Kippie, I ferment the pellets, about 1 cup per gallon, in 30 gallon molasses tubs (covered). I guess garbage cans would work too. I space them around the roses to save hauling distance. You need to stir the slush every day or so or it floats up to the top as a mash.

After 5 days--week in warm weather, when the stuff smell exactly like pig s**t & is well broken down, I stir it up (it will still have solids in the bottom) & start bucketing it up to the plants. Maybe 1 gallon or so to big established plants, 1/2-1 on smaller & ~cup on younger potted plants. I give it each month from mid Feb-July, stop during late July-Aug & start again Sept-Dec.

The meal or pellets alone are an organic source of nitrogen, of course, but I do the fermenting because the growth factor is an alcohol. Sorry I can't link to posts about it but IIRC, it was even studied by the USDA as a growth stimulator.

Other than that, I do add super-phosphate to planting holes as our entire state is low-phos. & phosphorous moves very slowly through the soil if just thrown on top. Most years I will also thrown a handful of ammonium nitrate or a balanced fertilizer for the first spring fertilizing (ok, so I'm NOT purely organic, but I'm in a new zone & don't have any livestock right now. I used to have an inexhaustible source of oak leaves & cow manure). Hope this helps.

Oh, yeah, I use it on ornamentals, the garden, fruit trees, everything, too. Only issues are as with other fertilizers--keep well watered before & after. The solids will cake on top of the soil as they dry if not watered or cultivated in.

And it really does smell just like pig manure--even has the same effect of staying on your hands after washing. (I don't mind it, I was just surprised at how exactly it smells alike)

From another site which begins with a "D" whom GW prohibits being mentioned: "Alfalfa provides many nutritional benefits not only for plant use, but for soil organisms as well. One very important ingredient is tricontanol, a powerful plant growth regulator.

Orchid and rose growers make an alfalfa tea and spray it directly on as a foliar fertilizer. Alfalfa is very high in vitamins, plus N-P-K-Ca, Mg, and other valuable minerals. It also includes sugars, starches, proteins, fiber and 16 amino acids. Approximate analysis is 3-1-2.

Sprinkle lightly over garden and water, or use about a handful (depending on the size) around each rose, tree, or shrub. Alfalfa meal and hay used for mulch contain vitamin A, folic acid, trace minerals and the growth hormone "tricontanol." Use at 25 pounds per 1,000 square feet or 400-800 pounds per acre.

Alfalfa helps plants create larger flowers and increases the tolerance to cold. Make alfalfa tea by soaking 1 cup of alfalfa meal per 5 gallon of water.

Good for all flowering plants. Research has shown that using more is not better. At recommended rates alfalfa worked wonders on roses but it could be overused causing adverse effects."

Triacontanol per Wikipedia at the link below. It is a powerful plant growth regulator which is actually distilled from alfalfa for commercial use. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Triacontanol

I'd like a clarification from our chemists out there.

Triacontanol is a alcohol ester found in plant cuticle waxes. Therefore, is it more correct to say that the 'fermenation' in making the tea is simply a means of releasing the ester from the cuticle so more is immediately available to the plants, or as mentioned above, is triacontanol actually fermented (made) *in* the tea-making process?
TIA,
Kerin

I dunno, Kerin--couldn't even recall the name that Kim so helpfully provided. Just recall intense discussion about it from posts years back--many, many posts. Some suggested it was the 'magic' ingredient in "Superthrive". Again, I don't know.

I just made the leap that since it was an alcohol it came from fermentation of the alfalfa. But I don't know if that's CORRECT. From observation, though, I see a big difference in effect between pouring the fermented liquid on plants as opposed to giving them a dressing of meal or hay, which IS much easier.

Of course breakdown time would be a factor, but, still, the liquid often gives remarkable, swift effects--many immediate basal canes from plants that had just sulked before.

I have a source of oak leaves, goat and horse manure. We expect to have some great compost again next spring...lol

I have done a cover crop the past two years of vetch, but was thinking of fava beans since they can be eaten too and serve the same purpose.

But we have a fairly large area and today, dead tired, the idea of the nice young man at the feed store loading the 50lb bag in the truck, me pouring it in to my nice easy roller cart in the driveway and tossing pellets seems so much easier.

I do have my dads old honey pouring can-has a heavy valve at the bottom of the can and a good lid, but I think I want to build it a rack to sit on in the main garden before I get in the tea process too. Or maybe my guy can help me make some kind of hose attachment for it as well (lots of gravity to help it flow)

hmm

Ms. Hippy,
I was thinking about creating some type of "rain barrel" apparatus to use for fermenting and irrigating the alfalfa tea.
I have read much about it in one of the many books I've been devouring.
It contributes to a measurable increase in basal breaks--the alcohol in the alfalfa.
The book I am thinking about was written by a man who began as an amateur and now has acres of roses sold to the trade.His nursery is in CA but I can't remember the name.
Susan

Also fish emulsion is very good when transplanting. Dilute it with water and deliver it to the plants. Stinks too but not like pig poo. Great for ferns.

Okay I have to ask, just how bad do the pellets smell vs the tea vs fish emulsion?

And how long does the smell last?

Thinking that might not add to the fun of a back yard party. How about skunks and the pellets or tea?

The cat LOVES me after watering with the fish.

Kippie: compost some persimmons, too. LOL.

Many years ago we were very close to a couple. Unfortunately, the husband had CA of the colon at a very young age. Feeling like his outlook for a long life wasn't great (& they had kids), he became almost like a "prepper". They raised their own stock, gardened, grew fruit, etc. And his wife had to can it all.

One evening we were visiting, & when hubby was busy elsewhere, his wife took my mom outside & shook the daylights out of a plum tree that was setting fruit. My mom thought that was hysterical--her sabotaging the tree so she wouldn't have to can yet another gazillion jars of plums.

Just in case ya need any creative solutions to persimmon season.

I got a lot of flack from moms friends last year when I picked the persimmons from the ground after I cut BIG sections off them. One is so high up in the oak tree, I hope my guy brings the chain saw so I can solve that issue this year. Oddly, they were all happy with the fruit on the ground easy to pick and did not want to try and reach the 30' high pudding balls...yuck. I would put them in the compost bin, but my luck and they would grow.

I mean really, who needs 10 persimmon trees? One giant Fuyu and the rest Fuyu and Hachiya (or fun with grafting combos) I can eat a few Fuyu's maybe even a few Giant Fuyus. One of each would be a life times worth for me.

Cross-posted.
Well, it just smells DIFFERENT than ruminant manures, which I personally find inoffensive if not actually pleasant. More ammonia-like. It doesn't bother me & I don't recall the yard REEKING, because it is watered in. It's certainly not the make-you-vomit smell of skunk.

But it does have an aroma & like pig poop it takes some heavy handwashing to clear it off your skin. No big deal. I just used the description to describe the smell you get when the alfalfa's "done" & it smells just like pig manure.
If you can handle fish emulsion you'll do just fine with alfalfa tea. Also, sounds like I've been making it about 5x stronger than the recommendation cited by Kim.

I have never noticed any vermin attracted to the smell of alfalfa cubes. Maybe because I do not leave them sitting there on top. Instead, I heavily water them in and then put mulch over them.

Kate

One caution about alfalfa cubes....make sure u do not buy ones with salt. They do sell them with the salt for animal feed, so check the bag.

EVERY rodent in the world LOVES alfalfa...

The LAST thing we need is another attraction for the critters invading our yard. Something, I think it's a possum, scratches around every plant including the roses. They don't get below the mulch, but I'm wondering if they smell the alfalfa in the organic rose fertilizer I sprinkled around in spring.

I was planning to get another bag of pellets .... when I used them several years ago the roses never looked better!

Would raking them under the soil a bit help cover the scent?

We have the nightly skunk visitors, they make V shaped holes all over looking for worms and grubs. I guess the good news is our soil is good enough for earthworms, but I am so over the skunks. At least they have not sprayed anyone. (I have enough solar lights outside that mom was able to check and see who was making all the noise out there and see her black cats with the white stripes)

We do have a rabbit that visits from under the fence, but I think I would rather it eat the pellets than bite my orange pumpkins.

I think I will start slow with some pellets and see if I have an issue with varmits.

Jenn, the skunks LOVE LOVE LOVE my lavenders that all came from the same supplier. I talked with the nursery staff and they said they are not an "organic" supplier and had no idea what the skunks enjoyed so much about their soil. Something calls them, we had to put metal baskets (antique folding milk crates we found on the property) to keep the critters out long enough for them to grow and spread out roots.

Kippy,
I live out in the country and applied 3 50 lb bags of alfalfa pellets from Tractor Supply a year ago to my lawn and surrounding trees and shrubs, including roses.
Everything grew wonderful that year and it didn't attract
every varment around either.
I didnt even notice any extra rabbits, and we ususally have
a ton of them around.
Just to let you know, that was my observation.

Alfalfa pellets work great here and no varmint problems (only thing I use). But, there's no rabbits, the raccoons and skunks don't bother, and, for everything else, there's the cats.

I just noticed Kerin's question:

"Triacontanol is a alcohol ester found in plant cuticle waxes. Therefore, is it more correct to say that the 'fermenation' in making the tea is simply a means of releasing the ester from the cuticle so more is immediately available to the plants, or as mentioned above, is triacontanol actually fermented (made) *in* the tea-making process?"

Kerin, making the tea simply hydrolyzes the ester and sets free the alcohol, triacontanol.

A couple of other things about triacontanol which might be interesting to think about:

1)Triacontanol is very insoluble in water and perhaps making the tea produces natural emulsifiers which help get it inside the plant where it can have an effect. 2)Triacontanol esters occur naturally on the surface of rose leaves.

Our first frost is generally mid October. In your opinion can I use the Alfalfa Pellet tea now or is it to late? My first year with roses that I really have had time to pay attention to so I don't really know how long it takes for a leaf to harden enough not to freeze. I live in the boonies so I don't care about the smell. Thanks!

Well, I did a test run with the pellets, put them in our little winter garden with the raised bed. I also put some along the neighbors wooden fence to see if the varmints come for them.

How long will it take before they start smelling bad? They just smell like feeding horses to me and I wore gloves so no scent left. Did not notice them at all when I ran the sprinklers (drip misters) on them.

Kippy, I don't think straight pellets ever smell that bad -- "like feeding horses" is a good description (I grew up on a ranch, so my standards may differ from those more sensitive). If one goes the alfalfa tea route, that's a whole other thing, smell-wise. Personally, I'm too busy and lazy at the same time and don't want effort and odor as a trade-off for instant gratification (plant biologist here -- I'm not going for exhibition or anything like that, just little moments of joy and trying to compensate for whatever "ecosytem export" is taking place from pruning). Gloves definitely overkill! I generally only put the pellets out in the spring, with maybe an extra application mid-season for heavy feeders. Yes, more for bigger plants. I don't put them around newly-planted roses. -- Debbie

Thanks Debbie

I feed my bosses horses some times and "collect" afterwards for the garden, so compared to that, the pellets smell good.

So far they smell less than when I feed flakes of hay and the horses shake it back on me in their excitement

But maybe it makes a difference if you are using one that some blinder in them to help them to stay pellets??

I didn't notice an odor when I used the pellets, at least not offensive reported by those who've made the tea.

As stated above, alfalfa pellets don't particularly smell. After spreading them around, turn the hose (stiff spray) on them until they start to dissolve. (Running the sprinkler to do this will take forever and a day.) Last, cover them up with mulch.

It is that simple--really.

Kate

Thanks Kate!

I think I confused some people posting about tea with the pellets.

Off to see if the rodents had a feast or if I am good to go with spreading some more around.

Oh My...I began to spread alfalfa pellets about 5 years ago. I spread them under the bushes and small trees. I do not bother to dig them in nor sprinkle them with water. I give a handful to anything shorter than my tummy and 2 handfulls if taller. I do this once in the early spring and once in Mid-August.
Kim, your post is making me wonder. Our 2 cats eat hardly any cat food in the summer. I am aware that they eat mice, voles, rats, etc.... Wonder if the alfalfa acts as a magnet for them...lol. Now if only it would attract moles and goffers...
I also do a spring tonic which is alfalfa, molasses, rabbit poops, horse manure, fish emulsion and anything else I happen to have around. This goes in a 100 gallon horse trough with a cover...water before covering. Let sit for a week. Spread by the bucket load..1 per plant. It just plain stinks to high heaven and the stink lasts till the next rain. Sure seems to work much quicker than the sprinkled alfafa pellets.
Have a good evening.
Jeannie

I put a handful of dry alfalfa pellets on my roses twice a year, early spring and early fall, and then water well. I've been doing this for 20 years, and my roses love it.

In my opinion it is actually easier to make the tea. I just use several 5 gal paint pails, scattered around the garden. I put a knee high filled with alfalfa and let it brew for a week.Then I pour it on. I refill each for another week's brew. When I put down the pellets, they get wet. As others have said they get crusty and water won't penatrate well. So I have to go around to each rose and dig them in. I find the tea works much faster and even though it smells initially, the smell disappates almost immediately. With the pellets, there is a dead animal smell for several days. I have had no rodent problems with the pellets and we have lots of squirrels and rats, yuck, but no rabbits. The rabbits may be the alfalfa eater.

My apologies. I remembered after I posted this that I included Milorganite with the last alfalfa pellets and that is probably what I am smelling. Oops.