Not QUITE the same, but I am told that 'Fourth Of July' is incredibly spectacular as a free-standing "fountaining" Shrub. I expect it takes up some space, but you could always "corral" it at the bottom, and have small plants under it.

Jeri

I have Souvenir de Claudius Denoyel, freestanding,and a rather risky Mme Gregoire Staechelin as well as a few modern ones such as Meg, Perpetually Yours and Penny Lane - they look OK in a very informal way although I don't think I would grow one as a lone specimen. The angular growth means that the ratio of width to height increases rapidly so unless you are OK with a bit of a heap (obviously, I am), I cannot, in all conscience recommend it that highly - and if you live in a windy area, then that is really asking for it - be prepared to lose the odd large cane or two. However, with even a minimal bit of assistance, they can be grown quite well. I tend to stick hazel poles around them (and often grow sweet peas on them too), so that the whole thing does not fall over (there is often a hell of a strain on the roots, although they get a nice trunky girth quite quickly. Without the extra support being very noticeable,(I often have a little 'enclosure', about 1m high, of 4 posts and rail or rope), just to help avoid stiff but sprawly growth). they do turn into quite airy and even architectural shrubs which are terrific mixed with other shrubs and perennials. You have to be a bit sharp with the secateurs, none of this once a year lark - I often have to nip bits off here and there. Much easier with ramblers, especially multiflora types, as they can be induced to be much more generous with basal growth, so laterals can be kept short and tidy (I don't do that, either - I just let them romp). I could not claim gracefulness as one of the reasons for growing a freestanding large-flowered climber but they do make an excellent foundation for that classic rose and clematis combo.

Captain Thomas, Sally Holmes, Breath of Life, Compassion, Casino, Altissimo have all been quite successfully grown as free standing shrubs. Cl. Columbia would have been happier with support, but it worked. It was also totally thornless in Newhall. Cl President Herbert Hoover, Cl. Red Talisman, Cl. Pinocchio, Cl Fashion, Cl. Goldilocks, Marchioness of Lorne and Souv de Claudius Denoyle were all much better, much more easily dealt with once support was provided. Kim

Thanks, all!

This is about 'Cl. Chrysler Imperial', which I knew well against a trellis years ago (that is, it was the rose which was against a trellis, not me) . . .

'Cl. Fashion'? Did you say 'Cl. Fashion', Kim? Is it the real thing? You have it or know where one is? Vintage lists it in their inventory, but they don't believe that what they have is truly 'Cl. Fashion'. I'd be most interested in a true 'Cl. Fashion'.

We started Sally Holmes with a wooden tuteur.
When that disintegrated, it just turned into a tree.

We've cut it quite a way back now, for the sake of its neighbors, but it's still a tree.

Jeri

Brent, I had a very weak, easily rusting thing I grew in Newhall years ago which certainly looked, smelled and rusted like Fashion. Like the others which resided there, it is, unfortunately, long gone. Now, there are many unsold, empty condos standing at the top of the severe, engineered slope which once held over twelve-hundred roses for eighteen years. Progress. Kim

yes! that's the term - a tuteur! At last, I can stop waffling bafflingly about the various wooden and metal 'things' I support many roses on - they certainly cannot be dignified with terms such as obelisk, tripod, arbour or even pillar but tuteur sounds impressive and nicely vague.

Yes, but who can pronounce it? Obelisk is certainly easier to say, and pillar even simpler.

True.
But the structure in question was not an Obelisk.
It was not a "Teepee" or an arbor.

It was a home-made tuteur, so . . .

Jeri

If you have room for it, some of these still-cane climbers can be magnificent.

I grew Cl. Peace and Cl. First Prize with their canes bent over a "hitching post" made of two posts about 4' high with a single rail connecting the two. I've also seen an enormous Cl. First Prize sprawled around a telephone pole.

I bent the canes over the rail and tied the ends of some canes to the base of the bush to give it some basic control. I didn't have to tie down all the canes. Gravity and other canes held some in place. With these stiff-cane climbers, simpler is better, IMHO.

OTOH, Belle Portuguese was so vigorous that it quickly became an unruly monster. Its long, stiff canes wanted to grow at awkward angles. It didn't have a hitching post, but grew up over a live oak whose branches touched the ground.

Hi odinthor,

I grew 2 Cl. Chrysler Imperials, each in its own 1/2 barrel-sized wooden container, on either side of my barn's breezeway for years. They were very beautiful, lush and bushy, and bloomed profusely. Both of them were burned to the ground in the Grand Prix Fire in 2003. My metal barn actually liquefied.:( That was on the side with the feedroom which was filled to the roof with a new delivery of hay the night the fire struck. I lost all my other potted roses in that location, including a number of hybrid teas, plus all my ramblers growing by the stream. Many of the eucalyptus trees there resprouted but none of my roses did. The Cl. Chrysler Imperials were purchased sometime in the 1970s. I don't know how long its been that I've seen anyone carrying it (except for just recently when Vintage had 2 in the first of their fall release). I don't have a spot for Cl. Chrysler Imperial right now, but I wouldn't hesitate to get this lovely rose again if I did. These roses were just so beautiful and I miss them (including their exceptional fragrance). You know, somewhere I probably have pictures of them when fully mature, but this was back when everything was on film and where those prints are now I'm not sure. If I do come across them I'll probably do a scan and post here. However, packrat that I am, that could take a while.

I do currently grow Cl. Crimson Glory in a large redwood pot where it has been for maybe 30+ years. It isn't precisely *free standing* as there are other biggies that have grown up beside it, so it has no other choice but to be upright. It is nowhere near as bushy as the Chryslers were but they were in full sun all day and this plant gets a fair amount of shade from its neighbors and the side of the house.

Melissa

Odinthor, when you said freestanding shrub, I pictured something cut into a 6x6 roundish shape and kept roughly that size, not long canes made to look like a shrubby shape by training around or through something. Do you think they'd still bloom that way? I used to grow Mme Caroline Testout, Cl. My goodness, what a thorny, STIFF-caned monster she was and very naked here. I tried letting her go straight up against a sturdy 8'-tall trellis, but what goes up must come down -- upon passersby with canes that were easily 12+ feet long, so I tried s-curving her against the trellis. That just turned out plain ugly since she carried no leaves to conceal the mess. I wonder what she would have done if I had chopped her at 6 or 8 ft. Of course, I had no room there for her to spread sideways - only up. If I remember right, she did bloom off of fairly short laterals - unlike Parade which threw 5' laterals that bloomed at the ends. I sure would be interested to know if there are any climbing HT's that are much more lax. Have you ever grown Mme Abel Chatenay, Cl? I almost ordered one once. I sure wish I hadn't chickened out on her.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

In Old Newhall, there is a very old Cl. America which has been whacked and sheared for who knows how many years? It has an enormous trunk and stands in a planter beside a wall along the sidewalk. The thing is ginormous. I'll try to get a photo the next I'm up there. Kim

Thanks, all, for your thoughts and passing along your experiences! My recollection from when I grew 'Cl. Chrysler Imperial' is of sturdy, stiff canes which fairly well resisted all attempts to tie them to the trellis sitting impotently behind them. The blossoms came mainly in the springtime burst at the end of the secondaries which sprouted from the cut-back canes (I'd prune it back to about 4-5 feet at winter pruning time). I remember trying to apply the "bend the canes horizontally to induce blooming" technique; but the canes were too stiff. All of this, however, is based on budded plants; it's a big question how an own-root 'Cl. Chrysler Imperial' would behave. As, in the 1950s-1970s, it was one of the standard climbing roses which, year after year, one could expect to be in stock at the local nursery, I was shocked when, in the 90s, I had a notion to replace some disappointing climbing roses with my old favorite . . . and couldn't find it for sale anywhere. 'Chrysler Imperial' is the standard to which I compare any (modern) red rose; and the fragrance of 'Chrysler Imperial' is the standard to which I compare the fragrance of any rose of whatever color which has a scent more or less in that category. It's not productive over the course of the year; but it is magnificent. There is nothing which can compare to that week in spring when a 'Cl. Chrysler Imperial' which has had the benefit of good technique and culture is studded with its two or three dozen big but elegant deep crimson blossoms, slowly swirling open in a cloud of rich fragrance. I've compared it in the past to the opium-dream scene in the ballet "La Bayadere," each blossom performing its own perfect arabesques on the stage of its plant perfectly echoed by all of the other dancers/blossoms performing their own perfect arabesques. Some things are beautiful; others are not only beautiful but also a life-enhancing privilege to experience!

Here is a link that might be useful: La Bayadere -- Kingdom of the Shades

'Brite Eyes', a William Radler intro, is classified as a climber but has such stiff canes that it needs no support. It is a stand-alone specimen that currently is about 8-9 ft. tall with multiple canes growing in a vase-like fashion. 'Brite Eyes' is very healthy for me here in BS-ridden Illinois, blooms continuously, and amazingly enough shrugs off Ole' Man Winter with little cane dieback. If you love huge pink/yellow bi-colored blooms, this is a contender.

And how DO we say tuteur?

(horrible at sounding out words here)

T-yoo-ter
no need for attempts at french pronunciation (although you can roll the 'r' a bit if you must).

Think of it as TUTOR -- something that TRAINS or "tutors" the rose plant.

Jeri

"Trains" as in "they go 'toot'" . . .