Poodlepup, if you can wait until Spring, I would try for the Found Rose, "Forest Ranch Pom-Pom," from the Sacramento Cemtery Open Garden.

It's got great disease-resistance, and is a terrific spring and fall bloomer. (Not much in hot summer.)

{{gwi:302313}}

Sherri Berglund found this rose near Chico, on land connected with pioneer nurseryman, "General" John Bidwell.

Jeri

I can't speak from the gardening angle, being still pretty new to it, but from an aesthetic point of view I would go with Souvenir du Docteur Jamain. I like the contrast of the darker bloom next to, and contrasting with, Graham Thomas. I also LOVE the form of SdDJ's flower, and the depth of the color, so maybe I'm not being very objective...

Excellenz von Schubert, at least the purplish version from Vintage Gardens, would do very nicely for that spot and it's fragrant, floriferous and likes a little support plus very few thorns.

I can't buy any NEW roses! Such enablers!! :)

OH! I SEE!
I would use Reine des Violettes, then!

I did not find SdDJ to be nearly as good a bloomer.

Jeri

I have them both although they are both on the young side.

I believe that Souv du Dr Jamain is the harder rose to place, more picky about it's spot. If you have a place where it can climb a bit, with afternoon shade but enough sun to keep it healthy, it might be a good idea to place it there as it is hard to find a really great spot for that rose. That being said, I also agree that Reines des Violettes is generally a better bloomer (will repeat much more after several years as it matures). Personally, I like Reines des Violettes in a prominent position, but somewhere like a walkway or archway entrance (or by a front door), where you can smell it as you go by, and the thornless quality really comes into play when people brush by it and it has no thorns! I have mine right next to our Gazebo, which is just lovely.

Also, in part shade, Souv Du Dr. Jamain can get quite dark, and the Reines des Violettes is a beautiful rich purple . . . so you may also want to think about which colour scheme you want in that location. I'd think that the lighter purple of RdV is more suitable for a "serenity" area, but it all depends on the mood you want there as well :)

'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' is going to be a disappointment if you require regular bloom cycles. I get one flush in the Spring and a small flush in late September, with nothing in between. 'Reine des Violettes' will perform much better than that, although not as generous as a modern Floribunda, of course.

Regards,
Paul B.

In my garden, Souvenir du Dr J is a better performer. My Reine des Violettes is somewhat chlorotic and struggles. SdDJ is on the almost-east side of the house with morning sun and afternoon shade. RdV is on the almost-north side of the house with early morning and late afternoon sun. My soil is an alkaline sandy clay, heavily amended with compost. I don't know where in the bay area you are; I'm near San Jose. RdV is in a bed that gets more water than the bed where SdDJ is located. RdV probably does rebloom more frequently that SdDJ, but it just isn't a robust plant. SdDJ is a moderate grower for me here. Neither one does fabulously well, but I liked them both well enough to keep them when I purged my garden of poor performers and bad fits over the past couple of years.

Rosefolly

My RdV is also chlorotic and struggles but I am still a beginner so maybe I also chose a bad location (it is very full sun, however).

Thanks everyone (I am in Sonoma County)too much heat is not an issue, especially in my back yard. Hmm, I am no closer to deciding. Maybe i will put them both there for a year and see which one is happier and a better performer

A lot of RdV plants are probably virused. That can't help.

And soil pH is a huge issue. It can't be "all that it can be" in alkaline conditions, without a lot of fuss with ammendments.
And that's why I like Forest Ranch Pom Pom better than I like RdV.
Also, that "NOT-RdV" that has been in commerce here and there is more tolerant of alkaline conditions than the real RdV is. Go figure.

But fragrant red HPs are notorious mildewers -- at least, so I have been told. And LO! So they have proven to be, here.

Jeri

Regarding viruses: I obtained my 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' from a "reputable source" with a strict no viruses policy, and yet it clearly has one of the viruses that causes RMV. I suspect most plants of 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' are infected with one or more viruses. Many, many roses of that era are, its a fact of life.

Paul Barden

Paul, I suspect my virused SdDJ came from the same source yours did.

Interestingly enough, that plant and a pair of wildly-virused plants of 'The Dark Lady' from the same source, both also had very vigorous cases of root gall.

I couldn't blame the vendor for selling roses that were infected with virus before I was born.
I DID blame them for not testing their roses, before advertising them as "virus-free."

Jeri

I have the Dr. in the back rose bed in morning sun only. It is young still and has only bloomed once this year. Healthy little guy but I don't expect much this year or a lot on the rebloom front period. I knew when I bought it it was considered a rather stingy bloomer. It has Buff Beauty in front of it though and is in a quiet corner of the garden. When it does bloom I'll be happy. When it doesn't if it is in good condition otherwise that's great. I'm not familiar with your other rose but I really fell in love with the Dr's blooms to the point that I'm willing to just enjoy it when I do get flowers.

Kate

I used to have RdV at my other house; I have SdDJ here. RdV had a better repeat cycle for me than some other roses. I had a nice blended lavender/purple color. SdDJ here has a dark wine red color that can be really sharp since mine gets morning sun and some afternoon shade. However, it has shown absolutely no interest in repeat blooming. It took that awful Easter 07 freeze pretty hard and has not recovered well. I am less than impressed with it at the moment especially when The Prince is not far from the color and does a lot better for me.

I recommend REINE DES VIOLETTES. It is one of those Old Garden Roses that belongs in every garden. This rose is thornless, or as close to thornless as a rose gets. The blue green foliage is also fragrant. On days with high humidity you can smell it from ten feet away, even when it is without bloom. The graceful growth habit is tall and arching, more like a Bourbon than a Hybrid Perpetual. It is also amiable to training. I have two: one trained up and over an iron tuteur and another pruned as an upright shrub. The flowers have perfect OGR quartering, start out magenta pink then change over to a dusky purple. Truly lovely on every way.

Okay now the faults. The blooms, although ravishing, are of limited use as cut flowers, because the petals drop rather quickly. To be enjoyed indoors you have got to get to the blooms as soon as the rotund buds "crack" open. Even then you are only going to get perhaps 3 or 4 days out of them. Second, this rose will make you wait three years before you start seeing reliable repeat. Even then, like Paul stated earlier, you are not going to get the constant repeat like you see with modern Hybrid Teas and Floribundas. She does repeat (my big one on the iron tuteur had three blooms this morning), just not as much as I'd like. Third, the rose suffers from anemia; i.e. she needs iron, lots of it. If you do not have enough in your soil the flowers are going to be lighter and pinker, and the normally blue-green foliage will have a tendency to turn yellowish, which is easily mistaken for RMV. Speaking of RMV, RdV is notorious for being infected. The good news is that back in the 80s Dr. Malcolm Manners at Florida Southern College subjected RdV to a heat treatment that cleaned up a specimen. He then sent clones to several nurseries that specialize in own root plants. So far I've been able to verify that the Antique Rose Emporium and Vintage Gardens have the cleaned up Reine des Violettes.

Trust me, you haven't lived as a rosarian until you've seen Reine des Violetts in full bloom. It is an utterly spectacular sight. The one I have on that iron tutuer is planted in a corner of my property close to the road and in the spring IT LITERALLY STOPS TRAFFIC.

Here is a link that might be useful: RMV free Reine des Violettes!

Right - post a pic of your traffic stopper, Patrick!

You can see how mine looked like in nearly full bloom - pretty, but I wouldn't call it a traffic stopper. I'd put a lot of my other roses into this category, but not this one (although better positioning helps, of course). Ymmv.

Andrea

I have SDDJ here in the bay area and it is a splendid little thing, just putting out buds and new canes the moment I got it home. The smell is really lovely and since I have seen it at my daughter's home in full bloom I find it an extremely likeable rose, the dark wine color is very attractive. This is a good rose. The foliage is delightfully clean in my no-spray garden and the plant, purchased as a band in June is a good 3 feet tall with new little buds on it's tippy top.
la

Poodlepup, are your two roses in pots? Could you not put one (in its pot) on the site, next to Graham Thomas, for a week, and then put the other (in its pot) in that spot for the next week? That way, you might get more of a feel for which one pleases you the most in that spot - always assuming they have a few blooms on them. I feel sure, though, that the very useful advice others have given you (about growth, bloom, etc.,) on this thread is going to turn out to be more important (I know whereof I speak in that regard, having made a few colossal blunders, in spite of excellent advice which I ignored, in my short life as a rose gardener). Good luck, though! Post a few pictures next year when the choice has been made, and the show is on.

Even though they are both just little tykes, they are radiantly healthy and have both bloomed this Summer. They are in small pots. From what I've seen, Dr Jamain is a more dramatic contrast to Graham, but Reinnes de violette, is the true complementry color to Graham. So in color blend with Graham, they are in a dead heat. It sounds like Reinnes will give me more blooms, so I'm leaning towards Reinne. I have a nice bench in front of this row of Roses, and I have my morning mocha out there. I'd like to post pix, but I have had no luck getting photos from photobucket, to my messages. Thank you very much for your help.