Hi Josh, first, I've not grown the rose ARE is offering. However, there was only one source for "Francis Dubreuil" outside the US and that was Beales. FD didn't exist in the US prior to the plant imported from Beales by Mike Lowe. The rest is all documented on Help Me Find at the link below. The story is covered on the rose page as well as in the Comments section.

So, as I've not read of any other plants of FD having been unearthed anywhere else, I'm left to conclude what ARE has is more of the same old rose documented on the HMF pages. What else can I say? Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Francis Duberuil

In other words, it is an early HT. But it is a great early HT. I see it grown in a number of rose gardens that emphasize old roses, including my own. Just don't fall for the fantasy that it is a true tea.

Rosefolly

Ah, drat. I was afraid of that.

Thank you for taking the time to respond!

Josh

I agree, it's a wonderful rose where it's suited, but it is as much "Tea" as Sombreuil. Barcelona held the distinction of being one of the VERY few, more heat resistant, very dark red, scented, early HTs. The flowers will fry in extreme conditions, but not as easily nor as quickly as many. If you have the room and want it, grow and enjoy it. You'll love it. It just is NOT a "Tea", no matter how tightly you squint! LOL! Kim

Why "drat"? 'Barcelona' is an interesting, funky, and highly garden-worthy old variety that is really not much like a HT at all in flower form or plant habit. All the good things we have read about "FD" in 20th century books were actually describing 'Barcelona'.

It's an excellent bloomer and the damask fragrance is as strong as any. An interesting point that has emerged in recent posts is that 'Barcelona' is more winter hardy than typical hybrid teas as well as old teas.

It makes multiple laterals from a single bud site as the old teas do. Given room and light pruning, I think it could make a large, full shrub.

Sunburn would be an issue in Texas summers, though.
Give afternoon shade.

FWIW, one of our SoCal exhibitors told me that, while Barcelona/F.Dubreuil is something of a wimpy grower here on its own roots, she turned it into a big, vigorous, 5-+-Foot-tall monster with big blooms on long stems, by budding it (or having it budded) onto Fortuniana.

Who knows? Maybe budded like that, it wouldn't mildew here.

Jeri

Jeri, I recently removed mine owing to rosette disease. But my plant was quite vigorous on its own roots and over 6' tall despite some pruning to keep it in bounds. (I didn't give it enough space.) This difference may have to do with summer temperatures--80's here.

As I posted on HMF years ago, budded as a standard and grown under plastic at Sequioa, it looked for all the world like Oklahoma. Petal and flower sizes increased dramatically and the color was intensely deep, rich and seductive once the extremes of heat and light were removed. Yes, VIGOROUS ROOTS can make ALL the difference! Look at all the awful own root varieties around which were praised for decades as "vigorous, healthy and productive." They WERE...when they had decent (though artificial) roots under them. Kim

I don't think it's all heat, Michael. Ms. Exhibitor lives inland, in an area bordering desert, where summer temps are definitely "desert-y." And even there, she said, it was on the wimpy side, own-root.

(HERE, own-root, it never got over 3 ft., and barely reached that.)

So, I think what she got with it budded was what Kim saw at Sequoia. Something that looked like the HT is apparently IS.

The evidence for its identification as 'Barcelona' seems conclusive -- and I'm not knockin' it when I say that. It's a GOOD HT. It's worth growing and preserving -- we just need to call it what it is.

Jeri

A;though my plant was vigorous and productive, you'd never compare the flowers to 'Oklahoma' except in fragrance (even better) and color (similar). They were smallish by HT standards and not high centered at any stage past the closed bud. Usually they were somewhat loose but sometimes had OGR rosette form (many short central petals artfully arranged).

That's so interesting that FD/Barcelona is a wimp own-roots in California, of all places. Mine is own root from Chamblees around 4 years ago, and it's easily chest high if not pushing 5 feet, in part shade. Our soil is reasonably alkaline like yours, so maybe it's the dry heat or heaven forbid, the winters, that my plant enjoys here in Nebraska. I was one of the ones posting about this rose being cane hardy for me here in zone 5, and I'd certainly have more worries about it grafted than own root once well-established, in case it decided to die to the ground some year.

All in all, Josh, I have to join in the chorus saying "plant this rose". Even if you were looking for an official OGR for historical reasons, this one is a pretty old HT by all accounts, and the fragrance alone is To Die For.

Cynthia

Cynthia, Barcelona is German. It just may enjoy more of a winter chill, or at least REAL seasons. I'd bet it enjoys real rain, too, something we don't have a great deal of naturally, and virtually none for the past two years. Here, I've never seen one larger than about three feet tall. If I had room and water wasn't as much of an issue as it is, there would be one growing out back. Kim

I am growing two here own root and I wouldn't describe them as wimpy. It does take time to build. I saw Barcelona growing at the Morecome Amphitheater of roses in Oakland years ago(forgive me if I'm spelling it incorrectly). I'm assuming it was planted there in the thirties.

Mine (own-root, from Vintage as 'Francis Dubreuil', 6 or 7 years old) at the moment is about 5.5 - 6' tall and about 7' wide -- I usually prune about 1.5 - 2' off all around in the winter.

I don't think it's ever been entirely out of bloom this whole summer. 'Oklahoma' is across the path from it, and as michaelg says, I wouldn't say it looks like 'Oklahoma', except for the profound black-red color -- michaelg's description of the flowers corresponds with those on mine. It gets shade from about 2 p.m. (as does 'Oklahoma'), which really helps the flowers to last. It is also wedged in at the end of a row of blackberries, in a "more-watered" part of the yard. (Roses that end up in or near the food-production areas of my garden are the happiest campers, water-wise.)

Love this rose, no matter what its name, whose foliage is also beautiful, and clean. True, it doesn't quite look like a Tea, but is more floriferous, leafy, and handsome as a shrub than almost any Hybrid Tea I know.

I think Kim is right. The folks for whom Barcelona is vigorous all have a discernable winter, and reasonable rainfall.

We . . . do not.

Jeri

If it wants a real winter and REAL rain, I suppose I should try growing it in Oregon. Thanks for the enablement- how exciting! : )

Zachary.

In its own time, 'Barcelona' was soon eclipsed by 'Crimson Glory' with its larger and more high-centered (sometimes) flower. But 'Barcelona' must have been the first or one of the first worthwhile roses of the velvety blackish crimson, damask-scented type.

That is, assuming most of us wouldn't consider 'Chateau Clos de Vougeot' to be garden-worthy.

You know, I've never actually SEEN 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' "in the flesh." I've wanted to see it for years.

I've wondered if this rose, found at the outer edges of Rancho Camulos, and completely forgotten by the owners, might not be the climbing version, int. 1908. It looks a great deal like Luanne Wilson's images of DdCV.

Jeri

There are several that blackish climber could be, Jeri. I agree with Michael's assessment, other than scent and petal color, Chateau is only beaten for "un-garden worthiness" by Nigrette. Neither are "good garden plants", but both are heavily scented with amazing petals. Not "form", but "petals". Kim

This discussion is great!

I asked because I came across a plant at a local nursery that was labeled as FD, and from ARE. While looking at the bush (and being aware of the mislabelling) it struck me as being very Tea like in its build and growth. The plant was thornless and twiggy, nothing like my other Hybrid Teas. I was naively hoping that ARE was immune to the switch-up. I considered getting it until now, but after reading the high praise by Mrs. Jennings and Mr. Rupert I have been swayed back to considering it. Plus the 25% off price helps with the enabling. :-D

Josh

This post was edited by JoshTx on Sat, Aug 24, 13 at 17:40

25% discounts should always be considered. :-)

Heck, Josh -- Give the thing a try!
What's the worst thing that could happen?

It might be a real winner for you.

Jeri

Wow, I didn't realize 'Barcelona' / 'Francis Dubreuil' got so big. I assumed it would be like 'Nigrette' and 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' in growth. Unfortunately, my band bit the dust (along with 'Crimson Glory'...sigh...), but I'll keep that in mind for next year when I get the planters for the HT pot-pet collection.

:-)

~Christopher

Someone here commented in an old thread that they were no longer "an OGR snob". I thought that was so funny because I went through a phase of "it's got to be old" back when the OGRs started being available & I started collecting them.

I still love them but I'm especially collecting old HTs & floribundas--I love them, too & they are harder to find.

Hope you get Barcelona, Josh--it's a very nice plant even if it's been masquerading as an old tea.

I have a band of Chateau de Clos Vougeot--looks like it's gonna need the pot-pet treatment.

I must sheepishly admit that I am in a bit of an OGR snob phase. I think the closing of Vintage was an especially powerful catalyst. When I realized the sheer number of incredible cultivars which would be this unavailable on the market, I set right to trying to preserve what my budget and garden would allow. But being the scholar( read: nerd) that I consider myself to be, I find great joy in the sheer, rich history of the OGR as well. Who wouldn't find the idea of a centuries old rose bush which has successfully managed to evade the wear of time romantic?

I suspect I will find my way back to HT roses, but never the modern ones. I have had enough of a run around with Blackspot that the modern variants have been ruined for me. An example would be my Veterans' Honor. Despite pampering and the occasional spraying (which was performed with tremendous guilt might I add. I wanted to see if it would make a difference in the plants performance) , it now sits bloom-less, ragged, and bare legged in the front just as it always has.

As for Barcelona, well, it will soon be adopted and brought home. Gosh darn it, y'all are some very persuasive people. :-)

Josh

Well, poor 'Veteran's Honor.'

It was bred, after all, about 3 miles inland from my house, where blackspot almost never happens.

Jeri

And, all the test gardens in which it was tested were sprayed routinely. Now, it black spots. Go figure. Kim

Wasn't it pretty silly to spray the test gardens, to begin with?

Jeri

Why would it be silly to spray test gardens when the "natural order of things" was to spray everything on a regular basis? Disease resistance was not that important. Those who didn't spray belonged to "fringe groups". Acceptable disease resistance meant the rose would remain fairly spot free between the two sprays a month.

The trials were owned and operated by the ARS and AARS, both of which found themselves in need of major corporate funding (for whatever reasons). Ortho and J&P stepped up to the plate. Why wouldn't the test gardens be sprayed? Kim

Well, it was a disservice to gardeners -- how 'bout dem apples?

Oh, that's unimportant.
Sorry.
Forgot.
:-(

Jeri

I understand that the norm at the time was to spray, but I find it unfortunate that the rose culture in the States became commercialized. I am happy to see that there seems to be a shift in the perspective on using chemicals. I feel that Earth-kind and, as much as I hate to admit it, Knockouts have been a great influence on the commercial rose industry in that they have made the general public more aware of beautiful, easily maintained, no spray roses.

As for Vet's Honor, he remains in my garden because of the significance of its name. With my brother serving in Afghanistan, it makes me feel as though a small part of him grows in my garden.

Josj

FD/Barcelona is a wimp own-roots in California

Nope. Mine is most definitely a healthy and vigorous six-footer. Perhaps I lucked out and got a great clone.

Afternoon shade recommended.

Sounds like with enough water and perhaps shade Barcelona does well even in California, but Kim undoubtedly doesn't have enough of either naturally. That makes sense that it would appreciate our cold winters if it's German, and it's certainly tough enough!

That's interesting that 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' is at least as vigorous as Nigrette, though I realize it's not saying much. I'd backed out of buying the former because of the wretched reviews on HMF, but Nigrette has done reasonably well for me (yes, short and scrawny, but fairly hardy), and I dearly LOVE that dark black-burgundy color. As long as they survive and put out those blooms, I'll put up with their mangy excuse for foliage, and I can always disguise the effect with some annual salvia in the front. Looks like I might be adding that one back to my Burlington order for the spring.

Good going to get FD/Barcelona, Josh. To appeal to the OGR snob effect you mention, you can always derive some satisfaction from the story of the mixup of the variety, and a good story can compensate for a relatively less old heritage in a worthy rose.

Cynthia

Mine is budded on fortuniana and it has grown steadily. I moved it around in a pot until I found the right sun spot where it wouldn't fry in the afternoon sun. I love mine. It has grown to 3ft here without a winter. Reliable repeat. I like that Michaelg deemed it "interesting, funky and highly garden worthy".
I love it and would like to order more. It's just a real pain dealing with the fort nursery as they state they have stuff in stock and then they don't (and then they do, and then they don't).
Susan

My FD is own root here, a little NW of San Jose. It is not as huge as some have described but it is a robust 4 foot tall and 4 foot wide. Very much a rounded shrub in its growth habit and no bare legs. Cycles in and out of bloom regularly.

We could say the OGR revival got underway around 1940 with Francis Lester's nursery, or 1950 when Graham Thomas joined the National Trust, but let's say 1945. At that time, the original 'Francis Dubreuil' was 50 years old (if not already extinct). Today, 'Barcelona' is 80 years old.

So what's an old rose snob to think?

"Old" is anything born before I was born.
HA!
Susan