Where are you located, Lynn?

Excellenz von Schubert -- along with other Multiflora-based roses, and pretty much all of the rugosas -- will want reasonably-acidic conditions.

In some parts of the West, our conditions are more alkaline (VERY alkaline, in my case) so I have pretty much learned to avoid things like that. I do grow EvS -- and have, for many years -- but it means regular doses of soil sulfur. (It's way overdue, at the moment.)

So, you might want to test your soil and water, before making final decisions.

Jeri

Hi Lynn: Excellenz von Schubert as a musk likes shade and acidic soil, versus Romanticas like alkaline clay. I put pine bark (pH 4.5) on top to keep my EVS dark green. All my roses are in their 2nd flush, except for Paul Neyron (own-root), despite our temp. near 90's.

3 months ago I dug a hole and layered cocoa mulch. Today I dug up, very moist. Let's see how Excellenz von Schubert does in my clay (pH 7.7) layered with composted cocoa mulch (pH 5.8). I tested the pH, it's slightly acidic.

I did the same to my raised tomato bed, the tomatoes are going beserk, short, but more fruits. I haven't watered it this year. Last summer the tomatoes tasted bland when I added alkaline top soil from a bag.

Cocoa mulch NPK is 3-1-4, pH 5.8, retains moisture extremely well, better than peat moss. I'll report the result later .. it might help with your dry & hot climate.

Annie L. McDowell as a musk, and Eglantyne with Rugosa heritage do VERY WELL with acidic cocoa mulch with calcium and all trace elements like iron & manganese (deficient in alkaline soil). I like cocoa mulch better than horse manure. Both horse manure and cocoa mulch make the leaves dark green (high in iron & trace elements), but cocoa mulch yield more blooms, its acidity counteract my tap water, pH 8. Its NPK of 3-1-4 is higher than horse manure at NPK 1.5-1-1.5. Cocoa mulch is slightly acidic, versus horse manure quite alkaline.

Best to layer in the soil, and water well, since the chocolate scent attract animals. Dogs get sick eating that stuff. It's safe as mulch in my rainy spring, since one heavy rain is enough to wash the chocolate scent off.

See picture below of earthworms with cocoa mulch, it's $4 for a big bag like a mulch-bag. The instruction says to mix in with soil, and let it decompose for 6 months in dry climate, sooner for wet climate. My experience: best to LAYER beneath the soil, "the lasagna method" is better than making glue by mixing it. I dug up after 1 month and found zillions of earthworms, see below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 9:31

Hi Jerijen,

I forgot to insert my city in the zone. I am in Las Vegas, and most of the soil in my yard in sandy, with a high pH, high in gypsum... calcium carbonate which makes it more difficult to change my pH, but I will be adding soil sulfur to the planters that I will prepare in advance for my roses; but especially the rugosas. I had wondered if there is a better potting soil to place my bands in prior to the time that I can plant it? My goal is to watch the pH bi-annually and add soil sulfur as needed. I had also planned to fertilize the rugosa with fish emulsion and pretty much let them be. It will only receive about 4 hours of morning to early afternoon sun daily.

Lynn

Strawberryhill,

I used cocoa mulch in a previous garden years ago and liked the results, but have not seen it here in years. I will have to research suppliers. Thank you for the suggestion.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Sat, Jul 13, 13 at 23:49

I tried Therese Bugnet some years ago. It had a shade cloth when it was small and to my surprise it did quite well in my alkaline soil and my hot climate. What I didn't like was that in late autumn it lost its leaves and stayed that way for what seemed like forever. A naked, heavily armed rugosa to my mind is not a pretty sight, and I didn't keep it. However, I was rather surprised at how well it bloomed for me.

Polyanthas and the small Bourbons (such as SdlM) have done quite well for me. Excellenz von Schubert didn't really bloom enough for my liking but otherwise seemed to do well. I'm not fond of hybrid perpetuals, except for Grandmother's Hat, but the only spot I had for it was rather hot and the flowers crumpled and fried within hours. Le Vesuve was put in its place and is a much more satisfactory plant in that spot.

All-day sun is difficult for almost all roses in my garden. The same goes for morning shade and afternoon sun.

I wouldn't characterize suitability by classes of roses. Some roses in a certain class do much better for me than others. Souvenir d'un Ami, for instance, has never been a very satisfactory rose, while other teas, such as Mrs. B.R. Cant, do quite well. I have noticed that lack of adequate rain, such as we've experienced this year, stresses out my roses, no matter how much I water them. The soil here is very porous, which the roses also don't like greatly. It will be interesting to see how Lynn's challenging environment will affect the roses she's chosen.

Ingrid

When I moved to the mountains, I didn't realize what a heat pit I had purchased. Summer temps are in the 90s and low 100s. I brought a few roses with me, but most of my roses were a house warming gift from a nursery that I had done a favor for and I got over 100 roses. YIKES !

I had never experienced months of temps like this and saw a lot of fried blooms. I finally looked around and really studied the plant characteristics of the roses that seemed to do well in this kind of heat. For me, I found that it was roses with thick petal substance and dense foliage that performed best in this garden. I also found that roses that were deep pink or purple tended to fry first, so I generally don't plant roses with that color.

I prune differently to encourage more foliage because this protects the canes from sun damage. I don't plant the roses where they will have additional heat caused by reflected heat.

I mulch twice a year. The mulch put down in spring breaks down faster in high temps than it did when I lived in Socal. The mulch put down in fall is really more of a replacement and it does help the roses get through the winter, but I don't do any winter protection.

I studied how plants move moisture through the plant from the root zone to the top growth ... transpiration. I spray my plants down in the afternoon, but have noticed that as the roses have matured this is not as necessary as it was when they were younger plants.

I don't mess with the plant's root system once it is sited. I believe roses need a good root system to handle the plant's need for moisture. (This is true for both budded and own root plants.) I also don't plant a lot of companion plants in the rose beds. When I removed the companion plants from the rose bed planted by the previous owner, the roses were stronger and put out a lot more foliage.

I have a couple of advantages that you probably don't have in Las Vegas. My night temps are 40 to 50 degrees cooler than the day temps and this gives the plants a chance to rehydrate. I also have a shorter growing season, so there are fewer months of intense heat.

The only place I have been able to find petal substance info for a rose is in the patents and I picked that information up on HMF.

I hope this helps.

Smiles,
Lyn

Jerijen,

I have actually purchased the bulk of my roses except for the varieties that will be more suitable grown on Dr. Huey, or are just unavailable. I conducted hours of research prior to making my selections and then more research prior to purchasing. I am giving it a good ole "college try".

Ingrid,

Here in Las Vegas, with 4.5" of rainfall annually, we irrigate, irrigate, irrigate; efficiently until plants are established, and after that we continue to irrigate regularly.

My theory has been, if the roses can tolerate the heat; which I cannot adjust, many of the other issues I can test, monitor, and modify my soil to create a more desirable growing condition.

When I first moved here, I was told that roses thrive in this valley; and they do. Many of my neighbors grow Modern Roses that are grafted on Dr. Huey. Most roses look horrible during July and August, then bloom till December and start again in March; which I guess is similar to many zone 9b folks. Losing 2-3 months of great blooms, is a small price to pay when I have blooms for 7 - 8 months. Fungal diseases are rare, we do not have Japanese Beetles, and I have never seen a thrip; although I know that they exist in my climate. I am regularly adding iron and dealing with other deficiencies.

I am keeping my fingers crossed. Most of the roses I purchased are Austins, one rugosa, one polyantha, with less than a handful of hybrid perpetuals and a handful of bourbons.

Once upon a time I grew 150+ roses in this city, but they were primarily modern roses and a handful of Austins ( Heritage, Abe Darby, Sharifa Asma, Jude the Obscure, Crown Princess Margareta, and Golden Celebration. Many of the roses thrived, some did not, but I determined their failure was due to poor placement; some just did not receive enough sun daily. Zephirine Drouhin thrived receiving 4 hours of sun daily.

While I am a strong believer in science, some things escape our level of understanding, or are not possible. I just hope I am not being naive.

At the very least, this will continue to be a great learning experience.

Lynn

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 2:31

I discovered that Excellenz von Schubert prefers a pH of 5.6 - 6.5.

Because it will be in an area by itself primarily, my plan is to take measurements and add soil sulfur to lower the pH prior to planting it in my garden, but would like for it to flourish to the best of its ability while living in a pot. I was searching for a planting soil today with a more acidic pH; I have not found it; but fortunately, the band is not here
yet.

Lynn

Hi Lynn: I posted a thread on "Cocoa Mulch" in this forum before, comparing that to Coconut Coir, which also has moisture-holding ability. The drawback of Coconut Coir is its salt content, due to processing of coconuts.

The advantage of Cocoa Mulch is zero salt, superior moisture-holding ability, NPK 3-1-4, with all trace elements and calcium. Even horse manure has salt. I tested cocoa mulch with some of my pots .... all hate that stuff at pH 5.8, except for Excellenz von Schubert.

I got 2 Double-Delight bands, one planted in potting soil only, the other planted in potting soil, topped with cocoa mulch. The one has cocoa mulch is pathetic, half-the size, with tiny leaves. You can't tell they are both DD's, because the one without has twice-bigger leaves. Double Delight is the top-performer at the alkaline rose park in 100 degrees heat.

Romanticas and French Meilland roses like alkaline clay. I put sulfur on them and they HATED that, leaves wilt in the heat. These classes of rose have a higher demand for calcium. As the pH decreases, less calcium and potassium are available, thus less ability to handle heat.

In contrast, multiflora-parentage roses like Blue Mist, which prefers acidic soil, also does best in my cool and wet fall/spring when we have week-long rain. I put Baby Faurax (purple), with multiflora-parentage, right under the gutter where rain pours. It does well in that swimming pool. Multiflora has shallow & suckering root, can handle flood better. Bluish/purplish polyanthas have multiflora parentage.

The musk family: Annie L. McDowell, Marie Pavie and Daly, Excellenz von Schubert prefer acidic soil, but can handle drought and heat better than multiflora-class.

For Romantica and Meilland roses, I use horse manure, pH over 7.5 (the stable in my zone 5a uses lime to deodorize their stall). For multiflora, I put pine bark, pH 4.5, since I want really blue flowers.

For musk, I use cocoa mulch, pH 5.8, then I put horse manure on top since I want Annie L. McDowell to be lavender, and only horse manure can do that. Horse manure also brings out the best scent of roses.

For alkaline soil and hot climate, Romanticas and Meilland are best. Cherry Parfait, bred by Alain Meilland, was so loaded with blooms at 100's degrees that I could hardly see the leaves at the alkaline rose park. If you search in HMF for Alain Meilland as the breeder, it will show roses bred by him.

Some floribundas handle heat, drought, and alkalinity very well. Examples: Sexy-Rexy (mentioned by jasm. in AZ), Fabulous, Honey Bouquet, Singin-in-the-Rain, Gene Boerner, Hot Cocoa, and Tournament of Roses (bred by William A. Warriner) ... they are the ones that bloomed at the alkaline rose park last year's drought at 100's heat.

The best-looking blooms at that high temp. were Chicago Peace, blooms are bigger than Double Delight, but bush is very thorny. Peace rose is bred by Francis Meilland. Meilland roses like Firefighter (red) make superb cut flowers, since the petals are thick, and they last twice longer in the vase than Austin roses. Thick petals mean they don't fry in the heat.

Last year at 100 degrees heat, I put Paul Neyron in 4 hours of evening sun ... he hated that, petals fried. So I moved him to morning sun only. A cold-zoner mentioned that hybrid perpetuals like Paul Neyron repeat less than Bourbons. I read in a book that hybrid perpetuals have a higher demand for fertilizer. Paul Neyron is the most fussy rose alive, best for ideal climate, thus I rename him "Paul Moron".

This week Sam's Club has MiracleGro Moisture-Control potting soil half-price (only $5 for a HUGE bag!). With that potting soil, I water my pots every 3 days in 90 degrees temp, it holds moisture well. When I planted tomatoes, I mixed that potting soil with my clay, my tomatoes are dark-green compared to my neighbor's, due to the trace elements in MG slow-released fertilized potting soil.

In all my experiments of layering stuff on clay: leaves, grass clippings, compost, humus, potting soil, peat moss, alfalfa meal, nothing beats the moisture-holding ability of cocoa mulch.

I found a link where Cocoa mulch is sold for $12 per 2-cubit feet bag. It's still cheaper per nutrients content than alfalfa meal which I tested on a geranium ... choked that to half-brown in hot temp, that alfalfa stuff glues up instantly with my clay. Cocoa mulch pH is 5.8, best for particular roses that prefer acidic soil like Excellenz von Schubert.

Caution: Cocoa mulch is poisonous to pets, due to its chocolate content. If it's watered in well, or applied before a heavy rain, the scent goes away, then it's safe. There's a site that sells pre-washed cocoa mulch, safe for pets, but more expensive.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cocoa Mulch at Amazon

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Jul 14, 13 at 11:18

My area has a mediterranean climate with cool winters and very hot, dry summers. Plenty of 100+ degree days (and not always limited to the summer). Rainfall is generally low (I don't think we have gotten 10 inches this year, and that much would be a good year lately!) as is humidity. My city does have water restrictions, but I have never really been impacted by them as I've gardened for years using much less water than many of my neighbors. I tend to grow roses that aren't that demanding of water, and when I bring in new plants, I notice if something needs more than is normal for my others. I have many California native drought tolerant plants interspersed with my roses, and roses that don't like the same conditions either die or will meet Mr. Shovel. I also fertilize very little as the natives don't like it! So basically, I'm aiming for a low maintenance garden that is in harmony with nature and like conditions pretty much as is. No chemical fertilizers or sprays. Hopefully a place where native creatures can find food and shelter. I usually have lots of hummingbirds, other birds, butterflies, dragonflies, and MANY bees in my garden. I also have dogs who like to snack on the native grasses and one who is particularly fond of rose hips. Of course, I sometimes eat the rose hips myself.;)

One of my favorite roses is one of the most ancient of all roses, the California native R. minutifolia. I have 9 of them! Five of the more common pink color, and 4 of the rare white cultivar 'Pure Bea'. Of all the roses I've ever seen, this one requires the least water. In fact too much water will kill it, especially in summer. Many a rosarian has killed it by providing too much water in the heat of the summer, when it, like many California natives, prefers warm DRY roots and a summer dormancy (minutifolia does its impression of a pile of dead sticks!). If not allowed this period of summer dormancy, R. minutifolia will bloom much less and set many fewer hips throughout the rest of the year. Yes, she is a repeat-bloomer. Tends to bloom soon after a rain shower when she rapidly wakes up and turns green, with leaves and flower buds sprouting all over.

I grow Excellenz von Schubert in alkaline soil and have alkaline water, and this plant is not chloritic (I was surprised to read when Jeri posted a year or two ago how much of a problem she has had with chlorosis on hers). I had no idea EvS had any susceptibility in that direction. I do not amend the soil and haven't used sulfur (not just on this rose but not on any others either). I have multiple multiflora crosses and roses on multiflora from Pickering including rugosas (as well as rugosas on their own roots from other nurseries). They are all thriving with beautiful foliage (except for the one that is an offspring of the tea referred to now in commerce as Mlle de Sombreuil), no chlorosis seen. I also rarely feed the rugosas anything (some get infrequent feedings of diluted fish emulsion and nothing else). The rugosas seem to be superb performers in the heat, with the Austin rugosa Wild Edric being a favorite of mine. He got a few feedings of weak fish emulsion after he arrived bareroot from Pickering last year, but that is the extent of the nutrients I provided him--and ZERO food this year. No mulch. Foliage is a gorgeous deep green, clean as a whistle, and he has repeatedly bloomed this year. He is also very drought tolerant and excels in heat. I've posted a bunch of pics of this plant on HMF. If I were limited to growing only one rose, I wouldn't mind if it was Wild Edric.

Fyi, roses on Dr. Huey tend to be shorter-lived in this area. Whether that is entirely due to Dr. Huey or is also because he often brings rose mosaic virus as a hitchhiker I don't know. However, this means I avoid anything on Dr. Huey. Roses here free of RMV perform much, much better than those infected (RMV plants bloom noticeably less, are slower to grow, and seem more susceptible to other unsightly ailments). Since RMV afflicted roses are on the sickly side and thus weaker, they also seem to want more water, which puts them in my bad books. Too energy inefficient for me.

An impression I have is those in high dry heat areas with low rainfall and alkaline soil/water seem to have chlorosis issues with the same roses I don't IMHO because they seem to use alfalfa as tea or spread in the garden. Again, IMHO, if alfalfa is avoided they may be much less likely to have problems with these same roses. I tried using alfalfa myself (having horses this was easy) at the recommendation of forum members (it hadn't occurred to me on my own to give it a try). Disaster all around. Widespread chlorosis throughout my garden on roses I'd had for decades and had never seen chlorosis on. So I repeated the application of alfalfa (in consultation with my local botanic garden that I was using an effective method) by trying it on the same variety of rose growing side by side--one got the alfalfa and one didn't, and also did this with roses in pots--one of the same variety got the alfalfa and the other didn't. Same watering schedule all other treatment identical, in the same amount of sunlight, etc. In other words to have an experiment that means something, change ONLY ONE thing at a time, otherwise how does one know which change or combination of changes made the difference? Alfalfa-fed roses became chlorotic, those not given it did not. Now your mileage may vary depending on what roses you have and which ones are exceptionally tolerant of alkaline conditions (such roses may not object to the alfalfa and may actually like it). I suspect that this supplementation tips multifora roses over the edge and with rugosas, they just don't like coddling in general (prefer a lean soil to a rich one) nor sprays or chemicals.....

I would be careful of the recommendation of cocoa mulch. Unfortunately it is being suggested again without a warning about the hazard it presents to pets and wildlife. Dogs in particular can be attracted to it, and if they eat it can be poisoned. Of course if those using it in the garden don't have animals themselves or care about native creatures, these dangers don't enter their minds.

Melissa

Staw..........

At first I thought you were addressing your post to me (Lyn), but they are addressed to the other Lynn. Your experiences with various mulches and soil amendments is always going to be quite different than Lynn's even though you both garden in alkaline soil. You have enough rain all summer that you don't have to irrigate your roses. You also have a much shorter growing season. Both are two variables that make a difference in how anything added to the native soil works in the soil.

Moist heat is very, very different from dry heat and impacts the plants, soil and mulches differently. Some of what you are sharing is valid, but there are other variables to be considered.

I cannot buy mulch in my small town in the mountains of northern California. Therefore, I go out to the forest and collect forest mulch ... yes, the first rule is to look for healthy trees ... and I also collect native oak leaves from friend's properties. (These are all native materials.) I age everything I collect to allow it to break down even more before using it in the garden. The best mulch for me is from madrone trees, but every mulch I have applied over the years has improved my soil so that I am growing vigorous healthy roses with good root systems in a garden where the soil was totally dead when I first started.

Also, you need to look at the "why" of the alkalinity in the soil. The soils in the southern US were covered by sea water for eons. The cause of alkalinity in your soil is completely different. The variables keep adding up.

I add mulch to help maintain moisture in the root zone to help keep it from evaporating too quickly to serve the plant's needs for moisture. It also releases nutrients as it breaks down and feeds the soil. I don't try to amend my soil too much because my goal is to grow roses that do well on their own in my soil type with my gardening practices.

As Mr. Moore often said, "If there is a way, the rose will find it." That seems to hold true in my garden.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'm newly come to Tucson after success with Austin roses in the East. Abraham Darby has done ok for me here (in a 24-inch container with drip irrigation), and I love the color. But I think red would be better in this climate--and I mean scarlet, not crimson or dark reds. What are your recommendations for a scarlet rose in a big container in this hot dry place? Reblooming, of course, and scent would be nice if possible. Thanks for your help--

Tessiess, thank you for your input. I used alfalfa pellets for the first time this spring, and upon closer observation, I have not noticed any major differences that I can definitely attribute to its use; unfortunately I continued to use my normal March cocktail which could account for a lot of what I saw in terms of growth etc. I research, research, research and many experts warn against the use of alfalfa as it is believed to raise the pH, which is the opposite of what I want for my high alkaline soil.

Years ago, I attempted to grow Blanc Double de Coubert. I had just began rose gardening and I am sure its demise is gardener error. I am happy to learn that you have had luck with rugosas; with very little intervention, which is probably key to its success? Now if I can just find someone who has had success with Paul Neyron to discover what the issue is with as so many gardeners seem to despise it....

Lyn, you are so correct. Las Vegas has its name because it means the meadows. This land was once very fertile and wet.

Generally, the soil in Las Vegas has inorganic minerals, but is very low in organic compounds . We aspire to have soil that is 5% organic compounds but have to amend a lot to get there. We also amend the soil to lower the pH.

Lynn.....

When I say my soil was "dead", I could have easily said it contained no plant organic material. The house pad and gardening area was cut out of a slope created by glacier debris.

With years of adding mulch, just on top, and watering the rose beds, the soil is alive with earth worms, not imported, and is fluffy and friable. I can actually dig with a shovel ... part way down ... lol.

The soil was tightly compacted stones and nuggets with a few rocks thrown into the mix. it would not even grow weeds the first year after I had the decorative rock which covered it removed.

Yes, I had to feed with chemical fertilizers, along with the organics in the beginning, but I honestly believe it is the mulching and watering that has made the biggest difference. Feeding the roses with chemical fertilizers just kept them going while Nature was working on the soil.

I do have very good drainage. Even with the heavy rains during the winter, there were no puddles.

Many of the areas that I have not cultivated or watered regularly., still can't grow a decent crop of weeds.

Smiles,
Lyn

theresamorrison, I attempted to grow Abraham Darby about 8 years ago and it did not tolerate heat here well; in fact the edges really burned. I have sandy soil with a pH that is alkaline so I amend, amend, amend. In a previous garden, I grew a lot of red roses, and they were deep red. The deep red roses hold a lot of their color when it is really hot; that I have seen from experience. I am not very familiar with the OGR's and Austin's in that color range, but my sister had a Munstead Wood in her Temecula, CA garden. Temecula can be pretty dry and hot and Munstead Wood performed well.

oops, theresamorrison, you are looking for scarlet red roses, not adeep red. Munstead Wood is a deeper red. I have grown reds closer to a scarlet red in the past, but the roses were floribundas. Sorry.

Lynn

I garden in Dallas and Austin, TX. We can often have months of 100* temps and very little rain in summer. The best roses by class for me have been: teas, chinas, noisettes, tea/Noisette, the smaller bourbons and polyanthas- especially the poly/teas. Roses that have performed especially well in the heat and my alkaline soil are: purple buttons, Marie pavie, Julia child, Belinda's dream, Le Vesuve, mrs br cant, souvenir de malmaison, kron viktoria, Fourth of July, spice, mr bluebird, white pearl in a red dragons mouth, pleasant hill cemetery, Manchester guardian angel, mutabilis, comtesse du cayla, Vincent godsiff, perle d'or, and Thomas affleck.

Sabalmatt, Thomas Affleck is a beauty. HMF describes it as growing to 3-4'. Has that been your experience in terms of its height.

Lynn

In order to grow in a container in dry areas I found using a system with a large water tank. Www.simgar.com has a system that worked for me in Arizona.

In order to grow in a container in dry areas I found using a system with a large water tank. Www.simgar.com has a system that worked for me in Arizona.

A long time ago, I saw a gardening program that visited with a lady growing roses in the Phoenix area. Her strategy was to make a slatted fence with a solid area one foot above the ground. This put the roots in the shade and she guided the canes through the slatted part into the sun. There was also some kind of support structure just above the fence with climbing roses on it to provide afternoon shade. Thick mulching was also one of her must dos. I think anything you can do to shade roots will be beneficial. I use mulch and large rocks. It's nice and cool under the large rocks and the plants like to have their roots there.

There was a nursery I visited in Corona that had magnificent summer roses situated on the east side of a vine covered lath house. Inside the lath house was a small pond and a misting system for shade things. I think the cool air and moisture came through the vine wall to cool the roses off.

I see the mosaic marking on my leaves during heat waves here so I can believe that RMV would slow them down in the heat.