Kippy, you mean a bogusvillea like this one? In 1975, it was a one gallon from Builder's Emporium. It has never received any "irrigation" other than rainfall. The DWP won't touch it, though they killed the Chinese Elm which is just past it toward the house. None of their trimmers will get near it, period. It BITES! The thing has grown up, hit the ground, rooted and taken off running down hill to create quite a space under it. It's probably the only thing preventing that portion of the hill from sliding into the neighbor's pool at the bottom of the slope. The photo is from three years ago during remodeling (it's BIGGER now!), so the "garden art" is gone. Kim

Gertrude Jekyll is the one example I have of such growth but it is a winter picture. This help show the upright nature of her growth. I like to peg her canes for blooming.

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Here is a link that might be useful: Gertrude Jekyll Octopus Canes

LOL Kim! I see you have it's cousin! Bet ours came from Builders in a 1g too. It went from pretty much one side of the property to the other, over several trees and had trunks that looked more like trees. (and held families of rats as I discovered while trying to tame the beast-it was raining rats...ack)

Irony is where the beast once had it's trunk, is now my austin bed. Sure hope that leech field is not the cause of massive thorny plants!

Love the blog post Well! I can see why you might not want to put your pruners in those thorns

I'll bet your Jack and the Beanstalk WAS due to the leach field, Kippy. This one definitely isn't. The leach field is across the property and a story and a half lower. Kim

Hi Kippy: First I'll post what's normal here: tiny floribunda and HTs (they die down to the crown every year in zone 5a winter). Here's a picture of Honey Bouquet floribunda bought as a gallon-size this summer:

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Next is octopus cane on a 2-months old, own-root Evelyn bought from Chamblee's. Austins don't die to the crown, they get bigger every year, like the rose park 5' x 5' Abraham Darby. The octopus canes are even worse on Charles Darwin and Radio Times, they are out of the camera's zone.

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What I mind is side-way octopus cane, as 2-months old, own-root Scepter d'Isle, it needs at least 5 feet elbow room, I'll have to move it elsewhere.

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I don't mind octopus cane as much as I mind prickles all the way to the flower. Last year I had to prick them out of my fingers with a needle. Lilian Austin pricked me really bad yesterday when I dead-head her. She will be shovel-pruned both for her messy size, fleeting scent goes away in hot summer, and thorns.

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Austins' blooms can be magnificient in cool and rainy spring/fall, but look really bad in 90 to 100 degrees heat, and the scents are also gone on most of them. Here's Mary Magdalene bloom taken today.

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That's why I won't buy any more Austins. We have a drought here, I have enough big trees and shrubs to water. I got painful pricks from the octopus canes of: Scepter d'Ise, Golden Celebration, and Lilian Austin. I'll buy 3 Annie Laurie McDowell for next year (my neighbor wants one). For the size of one Austin, I can easily plant 3 Annie. I have 15 Austins and 23 fragrant roses. and Annie beats them all in her unique scent alone. Her scent doesn't go away in hot weather like Austins. Having Annie is like smelling lilac and lavender all summer long.

Here is my William Shakespeare 2000. Pictures aren't great because they were taken with my phone, but here you go. Keep in mind that I have already cut this plant back twice this year (when this picture was taken).

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Ugh. He's huge and MUST be moved. And that's climbing iceberg above him, and that monster must be dealt with also. You're not seeing much of that one in this picture.

Closer. See how the canes lay on my gardenia? lol. At least they weren't in the dirt!

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Here he was in June 2011 when I first planted him in this location...
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You certainly captured the look in pictures. Great photos all.

So where is the best place to cut back the long canes? There was a post on that subject a few months ago, but I can't find it now. If anyone can locate it I'd appreciate the link. Not sure if it was on this forum or the Rose Forum.

Brittie's pics capture what people mean by octopus canes. But WS2000 doesn't grow like that in my climate. Its basal canes run only about 5 feet, but they still flop over under the weight of flowers. I deadhead by pruning to the top of the arch, and then the laterals flop too. This is a mature plant. Some of these vigorous plants will become more mannerly and upright after a few years of pruning, but Will won't.

WS 2000 growth habit can be controlled by prunning. My bush is approx 7x7 feet, but all canes are self supporting even when in full bloom. Similar shape for me to Abraham Darby pruned to be a bush.
Olga

Love the photos Brittie! Shows what an octopus cane might be like, good or bad depends on a lot it seems.

My Shakespeare 2000 doesn't grow like that also. While not the most gracefully shaped bush--it does sprawl somewhat--it grows all over to form a bush about 3.5-4 ft tall and about 4.5 ft wide.

I have a Mortimer Sackler that wanted to be a big climber but I wanted it to be a taller shrub. I just trimmed back the tall-growing octopus-type canes a couple times, and since then it has agreed to be a taller shrub.

My new Lady of Shalott has one cane that shot up a few feet taller than the others, but I don't really consider that an octopus arm because the Lady is immature and hasn't filled out yet. The one longer cane just shows me about how big the whole bush will grow next year as the Lady gains maturity. Besides if the longer cane bothers me (it doesn't), I can just clip it back after it blooms, so no big deal.

I'd be interested in some of the monsters that some Calif. and Texas posters in particular complain about. If they are no more than the last couple photos shown here, I have no idea why anyone would be upset with that. But if they are like the first photos, yup--I agree. That is a monster. LOL

Kate

Lordly Oberon, a "shrub" in Stevenson Ranch, Santa Clarita, CA. An own root plant, over the eaves...as usual.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.191539

Another own root Lordly Oberon, produced from the plant pictured above, only trained as a climber along a five foot block wall in Old Orchard, Valencia, California.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.170160

Neither plant could have been pruned into submission. Kim

What I object to is the tendency for the long arms to just 'flop' about the ground. 'Summer Song' has long, spindly canes with tiny blossoms that I'm so annoyed with right now. There's just no way that I've found of to 'fatten' up this stringbean of an Austin, either. He's about to find himself on top of the compost pile pretty soon if he doesn't shape up.

terry, buy yourself some of those green painted metal supports (a few dollars each one) and assist your weakling branches to rise upwards. By the time the rose is 3-5 years old, it will probably be able to hold up its canes quite well by itself.

And like I said above, there is no law against snipping off the end of a too long cane so that it will be closer in proportion to the rest of the bush.

At least that is what I do. Hope that helps.

Kate

there's some photos here of various Austins without foliage, a couple of octopus there, along with more upright growth habits, including Austins.

Here is a link that might be useful: rose growth habit photos

Gosh, Terryjean, must agree that SS wants to throw out great long canes but am surprised that yours has little blooms - mine has 3-4 huge globules. It is an extraordinary colour but had better buck its ideas up - or the secateurs are coming out sooner rather than later - although this summer has been a killer - everything is monstrously huge with the heaps of rain we have had.

Thank you Hoovb!!! Love the link!

Love your Lordly Oberon. Wish I had some that would grow like that--I think it looks terrific, so I'm not sure why anyone would be complaining about it. I guess I'm just missing the point. : (

Kate

Because it is SUPPOSED to be a five by five foot shrub that doesn't require putting out four to five foot stems BEFORE it will flower. The blooms are intensely fragrant and very lovely, but not at the end of a five foot, thorny bullwhip. Kim

That's the rub...'Summer Song' is at least 3 years old; maybe four. And he DOES look like four or five long, skinny, bullwhips. There is nothing remotely shrublike in his genetic makeup that I can see. I have pruned, fed, cajoled, threatened, and finally tied his Royal Punyiness to stakes. Even those little tiny blooms, gorgeous orange as they may be, are annoying me with their stinginess. I have even managed to get 'Soleil d'Or' to blossom TWICE for the first time in 4 years, but no such luck for 'Summer Song'. It's on probation.

Like Olga, I have no problem pruning roses into a shrub shape, and am somewhat amazed at the experienced, 'professional' gardeners here who expect a plant to do it by itself.

The 'octopus canes' are offering you the future framework of your beautiful shrub. It is what rose gardeners pray for.

However, I acknowledge that there is a congregation of (mainly Southern Californian) followers of the 'William Randolph Hearst' school of rose pruning who believe that roses - like hair and fingernails - should be left to grow as nature intended, and seem delighted when their roses most resemble that august gentleman. Of course, in a democracy, all views are valid, and most of these growers have the good sense to adopt this method only with roses that are most suited to this form of growth - largely the Teas and Chinas whose new flowering growth builds from higher up the canes. This is simply *not* the case with the Old European Roses and the European Modern Shrub Roses, where basal growth is dominant and the whole art of pruning lies in developing a strong, woody, but continuously renewed framework to hold the structure together and make it - as Olga says - self-supporting. In my day as a rose gardener I would have been censured and heavily mocked if any plant needed artificial support, no matter how big the shrub.

I would strongly suggest a re-visit to any of Olga's previous posts explaining her way of working, and the books I know she referenced in her learning days. That she still has the patience to try to explain is a wonder to me - something that I admit I have given up.

I would, though, advise that - beyond the obvious injunction to grow the type of roses best suited to your location - you don't pay too much attention to pseudo-scientific excusing regarding soil, wind, rain, ph balance, fertilising, etc. People in every corner of the world have learned to grow and love these roses, and there is no reason that you should not, too.

*Some* of this is written with tongue firmly in cheek!

Thank you Jon. And Olga has always been my hero for pruning. I've just pruned several of my roses and amongst all of the gardening chores (weeding, deadheading, watering etc.) I find this the easiest to do.

I want to thank Hoovb for that great link of growth habit of roses. Hoovb has done a tremendous job in educating the public about roses, and I love her site "A Piece of Eden". She has excellent pics and great writing style, it's so enjoyable to visit her site.

The Peter Mayle Hoovb posted in her link doesn't look too bad with the thorns, so I'll get it as own-root, very nice upright growth habit. I love "Firefighter" that Hoovb recommended, great upright shape, doesn't occupy much space, very compact - and it smells great and lasts long in a vase. I wish I can find a few more like "Firefighter", but different colors. The bunnies and chipmunks eat all my short roses' blooms, so I like Austins if they are tall and upright, rather than wide-spreading.

You might check out Peter Mayle more closely. It has many virtues (I love it)--but it also has very sharp thorns--at least mine does.

Very sharp!

Kate

I have gratefully learned about shrub pruning from Jon, Olga, and others, and I'm still learning by trial and error. Many of the Austins and other shrubs that throw long canes can be tamed by a few years of pruning so that they throw these canes less often or never. It seems that they want a certain yardage of canes, such that having many stems reduces the pressure to produce very long, climberlike canes. I just got 'Radio Times' to that point this year after ~4 years, just in time to come down with rosette disease.

However, in the warm North American summers, many DA roses are much more vigorous than in the UK. (I hope this statement doesn't fall in the category of pseudo-scientific excusing.) I suspect there are some DA's that can't be pruned into proper shrubs here, at least at normal scale and with reasonable effort.

Sorry I can't recall the name of a former poster, a British scholar who was gardening in the DC area and who pruned according to European tradition. She showed an established 'Othello" that bloomed well in May as a faily dense, upright shrub. But the same plant later in the summer bristled with 8' new basals and many 6-7' lateral whips. She had to prune off maybe 50 yards of thorny cane twice a year to have it be a proper shrub for the spring flush.

Unleash many of Mr. Austin's creations in environments more benign than even the best of the British types and watch out! I lived through the experience of discovering his newly introduced to our country, "mannerly five foot shrubs" quickly becoming house eaters in Southern California. Remember, the first bastion of "English Roses" and the initial push to introduce them to American gardens began right here. One of the first American collections of them was planted at The Huntington Library where I was an active volunteer at that time. We were all amazed at the intense vigor the majority exhibited. Mr. Austin was reportedly amazed when he witnessed the proportions his roses achieved in their first season (and even more so with subsequent seasons!) here.

I battled Golden Celebration for far too many years, first attempting to encourage it to develop into a large, free standing shrub, then to constrict it to a house wall when it demonstrated its complete resistance to being "shrub like". It refused to be contained in either situation, rapidly throwing itself in every direction and refusing to provide any color until it fully blocked access to any point past its position. Not even the stiff winds experienced on occasion in its situation could keep its exuberance in check. Perhaps, had there been a huge lawn with a very tall, long fence to permit it to eat, it might have succeeded, but in that normal sized, suburban garden in a fairly typical, upscale, Los Angeles bedroom community, it was much too enthusiastic and demanded far too much space and water. It sulked if not provided regular flooding. It made extremely efficient use of increased water when it was provided. Crown Princess Mag. was the same, as is Graham Thomas, Pilgrim, Charles Austin, Yellow Charles Austin, Leander (10' X 10' or NO bloom), and far too many others to list here. All of this on the same fertilizing and watering all the other garden roses were provided and none of the others (assorted OGRs, moderns, polys, shrubs, HTs, etc.) demanded more nor responded in similar bad behavior. I don't plant nor suggest many OGR types, as so many of them require much more winter chill, rain, humidity and much less heat and intensity of sun than we can provide. Many once flowering European OGRs simply will NOT flower here. Many Damasks, Centifolias, Hybrid Chinas, Gallicas are as successful as stone fruit with 400+ hours of winter chill requirement. We can frequently succeed with those which require no more than 150, in good years, 200 hours of winter chill. Short season foliage too frequently does not remain viable and healthy when exposed to double and longer of their suitable season length. Just as more tender roses frequently fail when exposed to the colder, wetter, shorter and less intense British 'summer'.

I don't expect the roses to develop themselves into the desired framework, however, selecting those which DO (and, there are actually a rather large number which WILL), creates a significantly easier, pleasing garden in which to enjoy your time, and goes a very long way toward significantly more successful plants. Perhaps, if I had Mr. Hearst's land area and water budget, more of the Austin roses may be permitted to develop into what they demand to be in this climate?

Yes, absolutely, they CAN be pruned and I have removed MANY yards of Austin roses to be sent to the green waste processing sites, but that much too frequently turns them in to thorny junipers, with the same level of 'garden color' junipers afford. Actually, perhaps a bit less than junipers. At least they provide a much more varied palette of green, are without the flesh ripping prickles, and they don't experience the foliage issues too many of the Austins have here, particularly when maintained in malnourished states from being forbidden the foliage mass they demand in this endless growing season to remain healthy. A large, thorny green plant with no flowers is disappointing in your own garden. It is completely unacceptable in gardens for which you are being paid to provide the required bloom. Kim

One thing that may help, depending on the situation, of course, is pinching off like you do perennials. I hope this doesn't sound stupid! I've done it often is the only reason I mention it. If you see a big basal that threatens to sprout up very tall too quickly, pinch it while it's at a low height.

I know many roses still have too much vigor. New Dawn comes to mind :) And real pruning technique is very, very important.

Still, pinch! It's different than annual or seasonal pruning, at least that I've found. The shrub responds so nicely if you pinch to shape as you go, imho.

Good suggestion, Meredith, and it can often work, particularly with roses which cooperate and break into appropriate growth after pinching. It doesn't do a whole lot of good when the growth is predominantly going to be another Jack and the Beanstalk main cane. If I have a long, tall wall or fence with sufficient room I need to slip cover, I may consider another octopus shrub. Until then, no thanks. Leave them for climates and situations more suited to their needs and genes. Kim

Please keep in mind that while Austins may be losers in your environment, they function fine in my environment and that of many other posters. California is not the measure of all things rosy--at least to those of us who do not live in California.

Kate

Dublin, I was thinking that. My Austins..I have two CPM and Lady Emma and they are very robust here with hardly any BS.

I think Kim's point was not that Austins are losers, but rather that "proper pruning" does not solve their problems in hot So Cal, and anyone would be better off selecting roses that do perform in a more mannerly manner there.

I live in No Cal, and have one Austin - Graham Thomas. We thought it was a bush, and so it is planted in the middle of an oval flower bed island between our driveway and our patio. Well, it immediately decided to be a climber, so my DH built it a 8 ft tall rose folly in the middle of the bed for it to climb on. It works very well - each Winter I prune it down to about 3 feet, and by June it has covered the folly up to 8 feet, and blooms very well. However, in the Fall it does go crazy each year, and put out canes that leap up easily another 8-10 feet ABOVE the top of the 8 ft tall folly. I really don't think that is what Mr. Austin had in mind when he developed it! Anyway, I just cut them off, as they flail around in the wind and endanger passer-byes. Next Fall I will try and take pictures of them before I cut them off - they are really funny. I think that if my GT was planted next to my three story house, it could easily achieve a height of 20 feet.

Jackie

Amen, Kate. My Austins do as well as my non Austin roses here--some are outstanding and some, not so good. They also grow quite large, but so do my other roses (example, a 6 footer Julia Child). Overall, I'm quite pleased with my Austins and continue to plant them. I think the fairly recent Young Lycidas and Princess Alexandra of Kent are outstanding, at least for this area. They are continuous bloomers and have a nice growth habit--no octopus canes so far. Beautiful blooms, too. Diane

What a great, informative post! I've learned so much just reading through all the comments, and the pictures are invaluable!

My Juliette Greco (not an Austin) has gone octopussy :) I think she was supposed to be a shrub. Not a shrub here, lol.

She so has to go from where she is. I have her on a cute 5-6' topiary thing. Now she's at the point where her abundant basal breaks are 10-12', thick and pointing out all over. I pruned her heavily this spring! She'd been mannerly until her roots got how she liked :D

Ironically, she's out-vigoring Sombreuil who is close by (but he's in tree roots)!

Apparently she's much more mannerly in Europe :)

That's exactly the problem I had with Kordes' Postillion here. It flowers quite well with nice fragrance. It's no where near as 'golden' as it is in cooler climates and it is also no where near the 5' - 6' size listed. Try more like 12'...in every direction. I gave it to my kid sister who used it to battle the thornless blackberry in her back yard. Both have eaten a major chunk of that end, but at least you can't see the junk in the neighbor's yard anymore! Kim