I wonder if ARE has a different clone now, than it did 20 years ago . . .

I really think DH needs to do some cuttings, come fall, of our plant. OH, and I THINK the Sacramento City Cemetery has our 'Rosette Delizy.'

Jay, the color of my blooms are stronger, even in the bud stage -- except in scorching hot weather, when they do fade some.

(JERI)

This post was edited by jerijen on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 20:21

Kim, was ARE where you thought Rosette should be ordered from too?

Jay I forgot, when I emailed Burling about what teas she might have available for the fall she said Mrs BR Cant and Sunset. And when she checked stock for the other roses, she said they were big enough to ship now. Christmas comes next week (again)

I thought I should chime in to tell you that Le Pactole got VERY big in the Sacramento Cemetery Rose Garden. Heartbreakingly lovely blooms, though, and nice foliage.
Mons. Tillier also got very big (until a tree limb fell on it, but it's recovering), but in a more mannerly way - it was shapely and well-leaved (some Teas seem to be stingy in that regard.
Of course, Sacramento is hot and dry, and it may not be the same where you are. I love all the roses that have been mentioned on this thread!
Laura

Le Pactole got very big here, too. It took a while to do it, but it does get big.

how big is big?

yugo, VW bug, VW Bus or greyhound bus?

In the cemetery, it was 1.5 bugs wide by 1.7 bugs tall. I should see if I can find my old photos.

That Mons. Tillier next to it was a monster, too.

Kippy -- Here's Mons. Tillier and Le Pactole in spring, 2007.

Beautiful! Kim

Is Marie van Houtte similar in size to Mons Tillier?

Thank you for the photos, they make the rose seem smaller than my mental picture

In MY garden, MvH was about the same height, but broader. But then, in MY garden, MT was nowhere NEAR that big.

Here's my MOns. Tillier at its height, when water was plentiful, and cheap.

Here's a picture I snapped today of a bloom from the same Rosette Delizy. It's past its prime, but it does show that this plant's blooms can take on much more pink/almost red.

Jay

Jerijen, what is the pink rose in your picture at the bottom of the list? The one with the rolled, pointed petals?

That is 'Mme. Lombard,' one of the most changeable roses I know. (Lacharme, France, 1878)

She has been found all over Northern California, and has been collected under many study names -- because she is often not recognized.

The Madam is a prolific bloomer, and a joy in the garden -- but if conditions permit her to do so, she can mildew just enough to annoy you. I forgive her that sin for the joy of the blooms.

If I was looking for roses that could tolerate some drought, and keep performing, this would be one of my first choices. She has survived through truly tough conditions.

Here is where my plant came from:

Thanks! I already had one on order for the spring - a nice coincidence.

Jeri if you were to pick just one, would it be Mons Tillier or MvH?

I am looking forward to getting a madame Lombard

'Mons. Tillier," hands down.

WHY -- Because, for me, Tillier has a handsomer plant habit, and healthier foliage.

And, I really love the blooms, which like most Teas, can differ in color, and even a bit in form, as the year goes on.

(Below: 'Mons. Tillier,' w/"Roseville Noisette")

Hi ,, this is rather long... because I've taken notes on disease resistant roses , mostly Tea roses for they are my favorite class of rose, for more than 10 years, in no spray public gardens, and 3 no-spray private gardens, in California.
These Tea roses have performed well in the Morcam Amphitheatre of Roses' in Oakland, California, the garden is "no spray" by city law. I volunteered in the garden for a few years and kept a journal of 150+ rose cultivars and their health. Other notes are from caring for two local no-spray gardens in Richmond california, closer to the Bay where p.m, is more of a problem.

Disease resistant Teas; notes from 3 no spray gardens in the s.f. east bay area.
Lady Hillingdon, very clean foliage. In another garden closer to the s.f Bayay other plants of L.H. showed mild p.m. during most of the year, but one was planted against a wooden fence and watered with a sprinkler which left the foliage damp making it easy for p.m. to spread in cool weather and at night .
Le Pactole clean foliage.
Monsieur Tilliier' clean and along with Mrs. B.R. Cant by far the fastest growing own root Tea rosebushes.
Most of the other bands of Tea roses I've grown have taken 5+ years to grow to a mature size, (Le Pactole being the slowest to grow) while Monsieur and Mrs. took only two years to grow to be 6'+ ' tall.
Etoille de Lyon; mild p.m. during spring and autumn, I ignore it as it does not affect bloom and is not heavy enough to detract from the beauty of the bush and bloom.
Marie Van Houtte very clean.
Comtesse du Cayla. China-Tea. mild p.m. in spring an autumn, disease resistant the rest of the year.
Le Vesuve China-Tea very disease resistant most of the year. a wonderful rose, very rapid re-bloom with attractive foliage. smoky fragrance, makes me wonder if it was named after Vesuvius?
Souvenir de Victor Hugo only mild p.m..
Rubens: only mild p.m. but It \does bother me that the blooms never open fully, it keeps me in a state of mild apprehension.

Reve d'Or' Tea-Noisette grown as a self standing bush of c. 5 and 1/2 feet tall by the same width: very clean and outstandingly beautiful especially in filtered shade allowing the color to be more saturated.

In my neighbors no spray garden, closer to the s.f. Bay where conditions are worse for the growth of p.m.:
Tea-Noisette: Crespescule mild pm.. usually clean most of the year. If it isn't well fed with good soil and fertilizer the blooms can appear sub-standard, the roses on well fed bushes are far superior, with more petals and a shapelier bloom form. Nice fragrant.
Mme. Lombard; often is covered with a light layer of p.m. but there is never any defoliation, or loss of bloom production from foliage disease.
cl. Devoniensis: a little worse than Mme. Lombard for p.m.
Alliance Franco Russe was given away to a gardener in a dryer microclimate (walnut creek, ca) because the young plant was thickly covered with pm. I saw an A F-R in Oakland that was a mature plant of c. 8' by 8' growing in a property that had been deserted for 5+ years, it never was irrigated and we get 3-4 months of consecutive drought in summer, and the foliage was clean or nearly so all through the growing season.. When I saw a budded plant for sale at the OLd Rose Celebration this year I snatched it up for 5 bucks!

Tea roses that are disease resistant
In my no-spray garden, closer to the san francisco bay where conditions are even worse for the growth of powdery mildew:
Mme. Berkeley is the most disease resistant Tea in my garden.
Westside Road Cream Tea, very disease resistant. a wonderful white Tea,
Monsieur Tillier, very d.r..
Clementina Carboinieri rarely shows any p.m. and its foliage is a wonderful contrast, blue-green, against the colorful blooms which arel the color of a tropical fruit punch; rich pink, apricot, gold, and the hue of orange juice flushing through all as the bloom matures. Luannes is more than 8' tall, mines still a baby.
Souvenir de la Pierre Notting: light p.m. and the blooms hang on the bush a long time with the outer row of petals crumpled and brown, I prefer Etoille de Lyon for its fragrance.
Rosette Delizy, squeaky clean most of the year.
Celine Forestier Tea-Noisette, light p.m. easy to ignore.
Marachel Niel' T-N . light p.m. (weak on its own roots, mine gave up the ghost last year after I pampered it for 3 years) I love it so much I was going to learn how to graft roses to graft it on rootstock, but it didn't leave me even enough for chips. sigh. I adore that rose.
climbing Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria. I list this because it was sold as a Tea-Noisette long ago and it is evergreen in my garden, of all the Tea-Noisettes I've grown the only one to never lose its leaves in winter.
Reve d'Or very clean when mature.
Mme. Franziska Kruger; light p.m., when foliage is damp from irrigation or rain.
Mrs. Dudley Cross; very disease resistant, a beautiful Tea rose.
Le Pactole very clean. Many Teas grown from a band size as own root plants, can take 2 or 3 years to show the full beauty of the bloom and bush, this is one. I almost gave up on it, but in its 3+ year in my garden proved to show it to have an "exquisitely delicate" style of bloom. An exquisite beauty, deserves the name of "The Goldmine" though mine blooms more usually white, than lemon-gold.

Tea I wish I had;' Anna Olivier' I asked a woman where she got her bouquet of Anna Olivier that she was putting in a vase at the Old Rose Celebration a few years ago and she said "There' s a bush growing by the highway near Santa Cruz" Never irrigated, and the foliage was clean of disease.
The most heavily perfumed Tea rose I've ever put my nose to.

Mild p.m. if foliage is sprayed with water:
Lamarque' otherwise quite clean as a mature bush.
Mme. Antoine Mari : my neighbor grows hers in partial shade where it gets covered in moderate p.m. most of the year but doesn't defoliate or lessen in bloom production:
I grow mine in full sun, where p.m. is much less of a problem
Alexander Hill Gray; mild p.m. as a young plant.

Too much p.m. to recommend under the same conditions;
The absolute worst two for p.m..in my no spray garden in Oakland, ca;
1. Ducher , had more than 70% defoliaton from P.M. and never produced more than a half dozen roses at a time and was shovel pruned, a much more healthier choice for resistance for p.m is W.R.C.T. it grows to be c. 4 and 1/2 feet tall by about the same width and has a delicious fragrance.
2. Georgetown Tea defoliated from p.m. and never produced more than 3 roses.
These are covered with p.m. most of the year, but do not defoliate and bloom production is not affected. The foliage does appear as though someone frosted these plants with icing. .
Mutabilis
Mme. Alfred Carriere

Good luck,
Luxrosa

Wow thank you Lux!

Printed that list out and clipped it too.

How is your Alliance Franco Russe doing? I look at that rose every time I consider options on Rogue Valleys website just wondering if it even survives here or just for other people.

Do any of you think there are some of the teas that just do better budded than own root? Which?

Not to open the "discussion" as to which is more "natural" or "desirable" a plant shape between budded v. own root; nor to trigger the debate about which is longer lived or more "naturally performing", as there ARE differences and some of them are improvements as budded v. own root.. You mentioned you've been unsuccessful rooting Teas there, Kippy. But, you HAVE been able to root other roses and you very likely will be able to root Pink Clouds as well as other types of stocks. I'm certain you will be successful chip budding, given any practice. You are intuitive, observant and completely capable. What I would seriously suggest is, at the minimum, start your Teas and other harder to root types as budded plants. Once they're up and running, you can decide to keep them budded or root them for your own garden, using the budded ones as gifts or even planted at some of the rental properties.

For an example, most of us have seen how slowly Teas tend to grow as new, own root plants. My Moser Striped grows between Secret's Out and where you and I dug Aptos out of the ground, under the walnut where it gets a bit of shade. This is the new growth so far this summer.
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That's four stems, with four to seven buds per stem. Taking cuttings would require the removal of all of that growth with all the foliage (food producing tissue) and wood (nutrient storing tissue) with no guaranty of success. For most of us, each stem would provide one, perhaps two cuttings each and leave the plant set back where it was at the beginning of this summer.

Contrast it with this. These Pink Clouds stems were wrapped and rooted January, 2014. Pink Clouds is MUCH easier and faster to root than Moser Striped. I know, I've done it. These buds were inserted June 14, 2014. One maiden (first growth of a newly budded plant) is forming a flower bud. No, I am not going to disbud it. Reading the Victorian "rose bibles", supposedly the maiden bloom of a newly budded plant is often the best the variety can produce. I want to see what the best of Moser Striped looks like. Once I do, I will disbud it until it produces the plant I want.

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Each of those previous stems contains four to seven buds. That is the potential for generating four to seven individual plants from EACH stem. However, the budded plants out front were created from buds I harvested from the own root Moser Striped plant without cutting any material off the plant. I laid on the ground with my single edged razor blade and a cup of water, slicing out the buds I wanted to use, leaving all the other wood, leaves and buds on the mother plant. You can't do that taking cuttings.

You can use one bud per stock, or multiples if you want to both hedge your bet for success as well as produce a fuller plant, faster. If nothing else, once there is a budded plant of it, there will be many more cuttings available, faster than there would be with only the own root plant. If you use a stock known to not express symptoms of any virus, whether it's an indexed type or one which has been maintained as clean as possible for its life, such as Pink Clouds, your chances of infecting the budded rose (as if these older types which have been passed around from one producer to the next, usually budded, for the past century actually stand a chance of NOT being infected) are every bit as good as rooting cuttings of the rose.

So, since you haven't been able to root Teas, and since they push a whole lot faster budded, and since you can harvest buds from a plant without removing lengths of canes, and since you can literally visit someone's garden with small containers of water which you can seal for travel to harvest buds or damp toweling to wrap harvested bud wood, you would be able to visit friends who grow what you want, collect what you want to grow and go home to produce the plants you want for your gardens. Seems like a win-win to me. Kim

Kim, you read my mind on trying to bud teas to rootstock and once I have plenty of plant try to get a cutting to root. I did not realize that the buds could be harvested like you mentioned. I am at the point I hate to ask for a tea rose cutting because it is unlikely to take. That is why I have been looking at where I can buy the plant and then figure out what works to root

From the rootstock cuttings you gave me, I hope to have 2 sets of mother plants to put in the ground in 2 different locations plus have a back up. With extras to share or just use as rootstock, I do have a friends son with cloning experience and an ag school degree who might just enjoy working with roses instead (and a with fence to cover)

It does seem like one of the classes of roses with many usually listed as unavailable are the teas.

Perfect! You could even set him up as a nursery to supply such things budded as a small business. Not that he could drag out his budding knife to "make his fortune", but I'm certain there is a market for budded teas, not only here, but in climates where they just don't have the "oomph" own root. Imagine getting such things into places like that "rose venue" (gag) out your way and real nurseries. Kim

I am not so sure about him doing more than dabbling in roses, seems the other crop has more profit

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Wed, Aug 13, 14 at 2:20

OOOOKKKKK.... well, they might make a good cover? LOL! Kim

What a week. I am always thinking ahead a project or two so I have time to collect what I need, watch for sales, etc. I had planned on dealing with the old water line issue this winter after some rain and when the soil is still nice and soft (and easy to dig) I have one garden bed to do some work in, a couple of fence lines to adjust (easier than it sound because this is just fence to keep hens out) and one small section do deal with, after the tea garden of course. Considering all the work I have done, this is minor. The fence lines need to move because I want to run my water lines there rather than out along the property fence lines where they are now.

We rarely water our old citrus trees, but often about this time of year they are screaming at us "hey bring that hose over here" But oddly this year, only two were doing that. One is in the main garden so it gets water consistently...but that other one...hmm must be looking good because the hose bib is just up the hill a couple of yards. Oh no...it is because the "T" rusted out and finally made a big enough hole to blow out. Thank goodness for that shut off we use. But now this means we have 0 irrigation water other than one 1920's hose bib on the back of the house.

So a fun day of gluing and running pvc lines, with lots of new shut offs sort of where I wanted them found me finishing up after dark at moms (she was not making things easier) and what could happen next? How about shocking the skunks that visit? Thankfully they did not spray me, but I must have surprised them in the dark that night. And they sprayed a couple of yards away.

The broken part of the line is still broken, but at least I can water the veggies that remain, the baby fruit trees and the roses. PVC to hose to hose to the house bib...lol

Ugh (plus work issues this week too)

So, back to more fun things to think about.

With the big tea row, I would like to put Salvia Greggii on the dry bank offset with the teas, any ones you think would look better with softer colored Teas? I checked today and they have 2 different purple shades plus a pinkish one. I think I would like the pink but that will be less contrast than mixing in the purples and mom does like the purples.

Kippy, we have every color of salvia greggii and its close kin that we could find. Several lovely purples, and a massive Clevelandia, in a heavenly shade of blue.

None of them fight each other, nor to they clash with the surrounding Teas and Noisettes.

I've planted several gregiis the last two years myself. I've found them to be quickly rewarding, front of the border shrubs. One is basically apricot, a few hot pinks, a light pink, and two purples. I planted the majority as part of a very maintenance light area of my parents' front yard. 'Mesa Azure' has been excellent, 'Berkeley Barb' quite good, and the latest I can recall the name of is "Flower Child." It's a bit too soon to speak on FC and the apricot variety though as they are recent additions. 'Mesa Azure' is close to my Sydonie and it's a terrific combo.

I too have a Clevlandii hybrid (probably 'Allen Chickering') in the vicinity of a tea. Just two days ago I planted Lady Hillingdon "next" to it. There's plenty of space between them occupied by filler for now, but when mature they should look terrific. Lady Hillingdon came as a band from Burling in the Spring and it was getting root bound in its two gallon container so I opted to plant it without any five gallon containers on hand. I remember you mentioning your Lady Hillingdon was somewhat stagnant in its growth, Kippy. I hope that turns around!

Jay

This post was edited by ArbutusOmnedo on Sat, Aug 16, 14 at 23:56

Kippy,
I'm coming late to this thread, but I think what you are doing is fascinating, and I want to follow your project closely. I toy with the idea of growing only teas and noisettes -- the only one I have is Marie Van Houtte, and she is just spectacular. Grows every which way, easy to train on a trellis, and very, very heat-resistant. When HTs fry, Marie just keeps on smiling.
The bloom in this picture was actually its first bloom of the year, and the only completely white one. Recently they've been cream-pink, yellow undersides, exquisite. Yes, I know a lot of teas share these colors, but for an all-around, fast-growing, repeat-blooming rose, Marie has a great deal to offer.
Now to check out Purpurea -- I have a shady spot for it.
Sylvia

In my coastal Ventura Co garden, Marie van Houtte was a vigorous-grower, disease-free, and bloomed in shades of yellow-pink-white.

In dank periods, she would fail to open. But if you removed the [rather stiff] guard petals, the blooms would then open normally.

And, if picked tightly, she had a good vase life.

Rose show judges absolutely loathed her, as she never even pretended to aim for pin-point centers. Their loss.

Update:

I have made lists, spreadsheets, X's in the dirt.... and am still having a personal debate with my self who goes where but for now I am planning or have:

Baronne Prevost on one side of an entry arch (TBD) and am going to move Allister Stella Gray to climb this arch on the other side 'Sunset' from Burling (guessing the Climber) and then in some order making a large C shape:

Smiths Parish
Safrano
Mrs. BR Cant
Mme Antoine Mari
Rosette Delizy (ARE)

For the lower level (hope they are all the sizes listed):
G Nabonnand
Comtesse Festetics Hamilton
Anna Yung
General Gallieni
General Schabilkine

Noelle Nabonnand for a pillar at the lowest level.

I have a few other spaces open for other roses, but going to start with these.

Now to find a place for Marie Van Houtte, a big one :)

That's a wonderful list, Kippy! It's good to see you're planning on trying several teas I have no real knowledge of or expectations for in this area. I've definitely wondered how Noella Nabonnand and Anna Yung might fare here before.

You mentioned Mrs. Oakley Fisher in the other thread and I actually just added one to an ARE order of Mrs. Bosanquet. My mom will be getting the Mrs. Oakley Fisher, so I'll let you know how it does for her. Every plant I've seen has been just beautiful. It reminds me of a single version of Lady Hillingdon.

Jay

Ironically, Jay, Mrs. Oakley has tremendously more scent than Lady Hillingdon does. She's a gorgeous rose which I grew for thirty-plus years. I couldn't keep the mildew off her in Encino, so she went to a garden where she could strut her stuff and look as great as she should. Kim

Hope she does well for you Jay.

My Lady Hillingdon has put out a 2 foot cane!! I decided, prior to the new cane, to leave her in her spot since she was doing better this summer and my cherry tree will be bigger next year for a bit more cool

Sorry to her about your experience Kim. Do you think it is just too dry here?

I think with the rapidly decreasing ground water that's a good possibility, Kippy. Traditionally, you wouldn't think Encino would be drier than Newhall, but it sure seems to be. Kim

It's about the only single besides Lupe's Buttons and Mutabilis that I've shown her that she really lusted over. I'll tell my mom to play around with the location in its container to see if there isn't a premium location for her, Kim. I hadn't seen mildew on any of the plants I've seen in person, but that obviously doesn't mean it's not potentially a problem here. I last caught it in the Fragrance Garden of the SF Botanical Garden a few weeks ago and it was quite fragrant.

Lady Hillingdon was slightly mildewy most of the time till I planted her. She's been very happy since going in the ground in a very sunny spot.

Jay

KIPPY -- See comments below.

Smiths Parish -- STAND BACK! Huge! But always in bloom.

Safrano -- Weakling, here

Mrs. BR Cant -- Grew indifferently for us.

Rosette Delizy (ARE) -- GREAT rose here!

For the lower level (hope they are all the sizes listed):
-- I WOULDN'T COUNT ON THAT!

G Nabonnand -- Plant of generous size, rather open, Blooms A LOT, Disease-free.

General Gallieni -- Still in a pot, poor guy. Totally disease-free.

Jeri

A really happy Gallieni in a "beachy" climate is a thing of real beauty! We used to see rich apricot surrounded by purple-brick burnishing at The Outdoor Room. Not surprising as this is where Rosette Delizy received her color change from. Those are two of the most dramatic Teas I've encountered. Love them! Kim

I agree, Kim. Remarkable roses, from the tail end of the Tea Rose Era. And Nabonnand roses seem to "specialize" in tremendous resistance to mildew and rust.

Jeri

BELOW: 'Gen. Gallieni' in cool weather.

I guess we will see how those last 6 Nabonnand roses do here now and just how big too.

Jeri, what was the Tea Jim grew in front of his home in that upper terrace that ate the whole front garden? I've browsed his list on HMF and can't find it. I remember him showing it to me (repeatedly!) and complaining how it was SUPPOSED to be a third the size it wanted to be. I always teased him he should find somewhere else to "hide the bodies". Kim

I have not a clue. But of course, so many of the Teas will eat the world, if you let them.

It was supposed to be "red" something, but he always questioned that identification. And, believe me, he didn't "let" it! Like the vinca from up hill, he battled it until nearly his last days. Kim

Although we are new to growing roses and this forum,the wealth of knowledge that my husband and I have seen in the past couple of weeks on this forum Is amazing!!!!

Kim, might the red Tea in question have been 'Niles Cochet'??

It sounds familiar, Jeri, but that one isn't on his list. It probably is and the list is in error.

You're right, Maria. There is an enormous amount of knowledge on this forum. Imagine how many plants we're all had to kill to learn so much about them! LOL! Kim

I am glad there is no record of the numbers of plants we have bought, planted, and then removed and trashed. Darn good thing they're compostable, once ground up.

We went through the stubborn period, in which we insisted upon trying to grow things we were told by others would not grow here. (The others were right.)

We went through the period in which we had to have the newest introductions. Particularly the newest Austins.

It's all been a hell of a learning experience.

I think the issue that I am having is seeing a tiny band, looking at a couple of the 2 year old teas and not thinking, oh ya....that will fit the space.

On that note, Lady Hillingdon has put out a 24" cane and a couple of blooms. Crepuscule is still about a foot tall, but looking fairly happy. And Safrano has gone from sitting and doing nothing since mid June to exploding with new red growth.

Still no planting holes, but lots of fence post holes are in and some garden wire fencing, should keep mom from scaling the berms and funnel the access to areas we can keep an eye on.

Since I started this idea, the use of the garden space has flipped. What was going to be open for the chickens to free range and the chicken free zone are now opposite. I now have some roses to protect from chickens, but even more I do not have to worry about.

Anyway, another few Sundays and the fencing/arches/gates will be done and painted and ready to put those roses in for that first real rain....when ever that is.

"It's all been a hell of a learning experience."

The rose and nursery industries thank you! Kim

The tea garden posts just need one more coat of stain and the wire goes

The other project the fence to keep the chickens safe and still be able to free range