Hi Lux, sorry to hear of your foliage issues. Are you saying all the foliage is yellowish, or just the new or just the old? I'm not surprised about Marechal Neil not exploding. I've NEVER seen one which did as an own root plant. Even under the best of conditions, it take many years. No joke. Of course, now the chorus of "mine is excellent!" will begin, but they are not the rule with this rose.

No, you don't have to dispose of any soil around the roots of your infected CI. Do it if it makes you feel better, but it is not necessary. Unless it can be proven to be from Malcolm's program, your Marechal Neil is likely infected, too. I wouldn't worry about it.

What kind of well rotted manure have you used? Was the drainage too fast? Unless there is way too fast drainage, I never put any organics IN the soil. Usually, our problems are too slow drainage and anything organic IN the soil will slow it down even further. I loosen the native soil sufficiently to alleviate any major compaction, then put all the organics ON the soil where Nature can more easily digest them and all water percolating through them can carry the nutrients through the feeder roots. The deeper, anchor and tap roots weren't designed to "feed" the plant. They anchor them and bring water from deeper in the soil. "Tap roots" tap into underground water. It's entirely possible some of your yellowing foliage could be due to the 'stuff' you've put in the soil. If your soil is heavier clay, and you've had a good amount of rain or heavier irrigation, your plants could be complaining due to reduced oxygen in the soil from being water logged. That would be the first thing I would check. The second would be to make sure the soil is wet enough. Either could create symptoms you're describing. As can extreme heat. Not knowing what your soil conditions, rainfall, irrigation levels and temperatures have been like since amending the beds, it's impossible to pin point exactly what's wrong.

I'm not surprised about Marechal Niel not growing own root and I honestly wouldn't worry about the soil around Chrysler. Kim

I'm only surprised to know about the yellowing leaves on Forest Ranch Pom-Pom. Roses here are not pampered -- it's survival of the fittest, and I think that poor thing spent 3 years in a 2-G pot.

But, once in the ground, it has never looked back.

Kim -- I knew someone years ago who said that Marechale Niel was absolutely rampant, on its own roots, out around Santa Clarita. But even in that hot climate -- that seems almost impossible -- so I always wondered if he really had the right rose. Commentary from the 19th Century was pretty unified in the opinion that M.N. MUST be grown budded to succeed.

I should ask Sherri Berglund how "Dr. Hinman" is doing for her, on its own roots. This seemed to be pretty vigorous, and I think it was judged to be 'Chromatella.' (See below)

Jeri

Jeri, Ralph Moore had what was considered a particularly choice Marechal Niel. I tried it several times in Newhall, Santa Clarita. I coddled it. I coaxed and cajoled it as I have many, MANY other roses. None of them EVER matured into plants I would wish to retain in my garden. Several died due to sun scalded wood permitting Flat Head Apple Borer attacks. I gave at least two away over the 18 years that garden existed. Have you seen jimofshermanoaks' Marechal Niel? It has grown up on to its supports after all these years, but even he states it is a miserable plant. The foliage is too sparse, the wood always appears arthritic and sickly. It just looks as if it's on its last legs all the time. Kim

I agree with you, Kim. That's why I was always doubtful of the claim of one that was huge, and of great vigor.

There's a rose in the Heritage which was at one time labeled as M.N. -- It surely was huge, and I was shocked when I saw it. But The Kernel quickly informed me that it was a mis-labeled Duchesse d'Auerstadt.

But I do think the Hinman rose has done well for Sherri, up in the Willows area.

Jeri

Hi Lux: My heavy clay is tested exceedingly high in magnesium. The Chemist in the Soil Forum said that magnesium is what make clay soil sticky. I tested magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) in a pot twice, both times it made the roses more yellow. It's has salt... not the best for heavy clay, which is already high in salt.

Professor Tapla in the container forum wrote that if you want magnesium ... rarely deficient except in sandy soil, you are better off get that from dolomite for containers gardening.

If there are pictures to see, that would help. I have heavy clay, pH 7.7, abundant with dolomite and limestone. I don't know what type of clay you have, your clay might be different from mine. My last house, only 1/2 hour, was acidic clay ... never have a yellowing problem, less soil compaction.

In my present house of alkaline clay, yellowing in the lowest leaves, with lowest leaves falling off, occur because of poor drainage and soil compaction. Coarse sand break up heavy clay best ... sand is inorganic & won't change in composition through the years, versus organic stuff that decompose and glue up with clay.

Intervenal chlorosis, yellowing of leaves, but veins stay green is from high pH. According to University of Colorado, bone meal is useless at pH above neutral. I haven't tested mixing bone meal with sulfur yet, if I do, it will be on some free annuals, not roses.

It depends how much rainfall you have, pH of rain is 5.6. I don't use bone meal, since acidic rain water unlocks nutrients-tied-up in my clay. If you don't have much rain, then bone meal would be useless. One hot summer I put bone meal around geraniums .. that burnt the leaves immediately ... leaves became withered and yellow, but the blooms had the most vibrant awesome color. The geraniums died at the end.

The best phosphorus is soluble phosphorus that reside either in compost or manure. That stuff doesn't burn like bone meal in hot weather.

I re-read your post the 3rd time, you mentioned using both compost and manure. Most horse manure is alkaline, unless you own horses and don't use lime like the stables. Gracin in Florida tested her cow manure to be almost as alkaline as baking soda (pH 8.5). I tested cow manure in a bag from HomeDepot, its pH is around 8. Bagged manure has lime added to control the odor.

It's good to test the pH of your soil, and the manure or compost used. The English Roses forum is down now, so I include the link to the Organic Roses Forum, where I wrote a shortcut to get your soil pH fast.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Jul 21, 13 at 0:25

Lux, I'm with the Marechal Niel failure crowd. I had the Vintage clone, which did fairly well for the first three or four years or so on its own roots. Several canes, each of which about 9 feet long (apologies for out-of-focus photo, but gives you an idea of its prime). But it seemed to hit a wall at that point and started growing backwards. Sun-burnt leaves, always something of a problem, became more of one, then sun-burnt wood, and general dwindling and dieback. When I finally removed it this spring, the root mass looked healthy enough but was very small for a rose of its size and I thought that might be the crux of the problem: the rose grew beyond what its roots could support.

I have read often on this forum about roses growing backwards. What does that mean? Declining? I've tried googling the term but nothing comes up.

Thank you, anne

Exactly as it seems it would be, Anne. It gets smaller each season. It doesn't replace old wood, so it shrinks, or it replaces less growth than it loses. Kim

Yes, was losing more wood than was gained (which was hardly any at all). I can add that "arthritic and sickly", "sparse foliage:, and looking like it was "on its last legs" were all good descriptions of mine that last year.

Ah, I see. Odd expression, though, to me at least. I had strange visuals of canes branching downward.

Yes, that would be very disappointing, indeed.

Thank you, Anne

It's truly sad to be burdened with such awful varieties when there are others which are actually quite similar, but GROW so much better, so much more easily. Some of these things honestly deserve to be permitted to slip into oblivion. Kim

Thank you everyone,

-I used well rotted horse manure after admiring how well it worked at vintage gardens (their staff used it as a mulch when it still had form with straw visible, one year)
-we have summer drought with no rain at all for 3 to 4 months consecutively.
-both rosebushes have green-yellow leaves, no veining.

Thanks Kim,
when I move Marechal Niel I'll be sure to cultivate the soil and then mulch it with the organics.
-I'll do another ph test, I forgot the number the test gave, originally, I remember it was slightly acidic though.

I really appreciate everyones help, and so quickly too!
love, Lux.
P.S.
'Chromatella' grows well locally, in El Cerrito.

Lux again,

after considering everything, I think the failure of Marachal Niel' to thrive, might be the clone.
Because in the same bed, and c. 7-8 feet on- center from M.N. is a 'Mrs. B.R. Cant' that was given to me as a house present in January 2013, it arrived in a gallon pot and was c. 8 inches tall by nearly as wide, now it has grown to be c. 3 feet tall by nearly as wide in less than 7 months. I had planned to keep it in that bed for a couple years until it grew to be about 3 feet tall until I had cleared a strip of lawn to move it to, but it's grown three times faster than I thought it would have done.

I'm still moving Marachal Niel' to a rosebed that gets a couple hours of afternoon shade, because two canes are sunburnt at the top of the plant,

The yellowing leaves may be due to using Epson salts,this year and last, a tip I read in an English rose book. I should have understood that a method and means used in England may not be a good thing to use in California, because our soil and climate is so different.
Thanks again,
Lux.

I've kept wondering if those plants were getting enough water, Lux. You're right, adding anything salty to drier, more water stressed plants in a more arid climate won't necessarily have the benefit it will in a significantly wetter one. I think moving The Marechal to less intense sun might be your only chance of saving him. The foliage is just so sparse and the wood so susceptible to scalding. Kim