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Soil appears hard in milk container

12 years ago

My soil in milk containers appears solid. Shouldn't it be somewhat loose so sprouts can prop up? I mentioned in other post, I had about 1/4" water in my containers. Could this because I have clay potting soil?Other reason could be when you have too much water and soil settles it becomes hard.

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Comments (8)

ricjo22
12 years ago
I live in southern Iowa where the black dirt looks like it could be used in a pot but it has enough clay in it that it turns to a solid lump after a few waterings.Even adding some to good commercial potting soil causes clumping and clogs the drain holes. I think that may be your trouble.Too much water will kill your seedlings but the soil wont bind without clay
morz8 - Washington Coast
12 years ago
"Could this because I have clay potting soil"

I'm confused - why would you? The bulk ingredient in potting soil (basically all commercial brands are soilless these days) is usually peat, or ground bark. Emphasis is on formulation for aeration and drainage for use in an enclosed space (container). What did you use in yours if the areation quality seems missing now?
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You're welcome. Thanks again, for being so kind. Some thoughts I offered in another, older threads on this forum. They should pretty much answer your question, and may even be quoted in the text somewhere up this thread (if so, I apologize for the redundancy): In my estimation, the only case to be made for reusing container soils is one of economics, and you'll never find me argue against making that decision. If you can't afford, you can't afford it. That said and setting economics aside, you might decide to reuse soil for reasons other than economical. Perhaps the effort involved with acquiring (or making your own) soil is something you might not wish to go through or be bothered with. In any case, it would be difficult to show that soils in a more advanced state of structural collapse can somehow be preferred to a soil that can be counted on to maintain its structure for the entire growth cycle. So, if the economic aspect is set aside, at some point you must decide that "my used soil is good enough" and that you're willing to accept whatever the results of that decision are. All soils are not created equal. The soils I grow in are usually pine bark based & collapse structurally at a much slower rate that peat based soils, yet I usually choose to turn them into the garden or give them over to a compost pile where they serve a better purpose than as a container soil after a year of service. Some plantings (like woody materials and some perennials) do pretty well the second year in the same bark-based soil, and with careful watering, I'm usually able to get them through a third year w/o root issues. Watering habits are an extremely important part of container gardening. Well structured soils that drain well are much more forgiving and certainly favor success on the part of the more inexperienced gardeners. As soils age, water retention increases and growing becomes increasingly difficult. If your (anyone's) excellence in watering skills allows you to grow in an aging medium, or if your decision that "good enough" is good enough for you, then it's (your decision) is good enough for me, too. The phrases "it works for me" or "I've done it this way for years w/o problems" is often offered up as good reason to continue the status quo, but there's not much substance there. I'm being called away now, but I'll leave with something I offered in reply on a recent thread: "... First, plants really aren't particular about what soil is made of. As long as you're willing to stand over your plant & water every 10 minutes, you can grow most plants perfectly well in a bucket of marbles. Mix a little of the proper fertilizers in the water & you're good to go. The plant has all it needs - water, nutrients, air in the root zone, and something to hold it in place. So, if we can grow in marbles, how can a soil fail? Our growing skills fail us more often than our soils fail. We often lack the experience or knowledge to recognize the shortcomings of our soils and to adjust for them. The lower our experience/knowledge levels are, the more nearly perfect should be the soils we grow in, but this is a catch 22 situation because hidden in the inexperience is the inability to even recognize differences between good and bad soil(s). Container soils fail when their structure fails. When we select soils with components that break down quickly or that are so small they find their way into and clog macro-pores, we begin our growing attempts under a handicap. I see anecdotes about reusing soils, even recommendations to do it all over these forums. I don't argue with the practice, but I (very) rarely do it, even when growing flowery annuals, meant only for a single season. Soils don't break down at an even rate. If you assign a soil a life of two years and imagine that the soil goes from perfect to unusable in that time, it's likely it would be fine for the first year, lose about 25% of its suitability in the first half of the second year, and lose the other 75% in the last half of the second year. This is an approximation & is only meant to illustrate the exponential rate at which soils collapse. Soils that are suitable for only a growing season show a similar rate of decline, but at an accelerated rate. When a used soil is mixed with fresh soil after a growing season, the old soil particles are in or about to begin a period of accelerated decay. I choose to turn them into the garden or they find their way to a compost pile. Unless the reasons are economical, I find it difficult to imagine why anyone would add garden soils to container soils. It destroys aeration and usually causes soils to retain too much water for too long. Sand (unless approaching the size of BB's), has the same effect. I don't use compost in soils because of the negative effect on aeration/drainage. The small amount of micro-nutrients provided by compost can be more efficiently added, organically or inorganically, via other vehicles. To boil this all down, a container soil fails when the inverse relationship between aeration/drainage goes awry. When aeration is reduced, soggy soil is the result, and trouble is in the making. I've mentioned before that I don't post here to get people to convert to a particular mix or blend of soil. I post what I know will work very well for anyone who can get appropriate ingredients & modify the mix to suit their climate & other cultural conditions. If you use a mix that guarantees good aeration for the expected life of the planting - you're in good shape. Most peat based mixes will not work well in extended life plantings. Conifer bark based mixes, on the other hand, retain structure for much longer periods. If you still have questions, please don't hesitate .... Al
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Al and Nathan, I hope that you don't mind my sharing a humorous story about Turface, that really highlights your points and underscores how respected a product Turface is in the industry. My son is a Turf Grass Agronomy major at a large Southern university, and did an internship last spring/summer at one of the major league baseball spring training facilities in Florida. Turface is used for excess water on the fields that occurs during rainstorms, especially those "popcorn" showers (downpours) that occur frequently in Florida. It has helped prevent many a game "rainout" due to its effectiveness. It takes many bags of Turface to do this (for one game), which can become a bit pricey---so it's a protected commodity in the baseball industry. During one sudden torrential downpour, the Grounds Crew quickly pulled the tarp over the infield, and then took cover in the visiting team's dugout to wait out the storm. The Turface bags were kept to the side in the visiting dugout, near where the Grounds workers were standing. The visiting team's pitcher had a bad inning just prior to the rainstorm, and came into the dugout kicking and throwing things, as they sometimes do. As he looked for things to use to vent his frustration, he eyed the bags of Turface to the side, and the Grounds workers caught his glance, and could tell that he was tempted to kick them, also. They immediately, in *unison*, said "don't even think about it!". Throw your glove, knock over some bats, kick the bubblegum containers over, but don't mess with the Turface...unless you want to take on the Grounds Crew... :)
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I'd chop 'em all off just above the crown and keep the soil damp, but not wet. WHILE you repot, it's important to keep the roots constantly wet. That means you need to be dipping them in a tub of water at least every minute, or removing the old soil with water pressure. The all-important fine roots dry out and die quickly unless you stay on top of keeping them wet. AFTER the repot, it's important that you keep the soil moist where it's occupied by the roots, That might mean watering every day until the roots start to colonize the deeper part of the pot. Other than that, you'll need to get a feel for how many fine roots you must leave to support the water needs of the top of the plant. I regularly remove up to 90% of a plant's roots during a repot and I almost never ever lose a plant unless it blows out or an animal helps it out of the pot. Al
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Yes, I stated that I'm not worried about the aluminum, all the same I won't use aluminum sulfate either. Although it may be safe, I worry about toxic levels. Just because lead is in all soils doesn't mean it's a good idea to add more. Same with aluminum. And if you mix turface without a mask, you will be exposed to it. As far as water absorption Axis noted that turface holds 95% of it's weight in water. Pumice only holds 15% and DE holds 142% Try diatomaceous earth in your tests. Optisorb is about the largest size available to home gardeners. Axis makes an excellent size, but is for commercial use only. Numerous studies document it's use as superior to most other amendments. Such as " Effects of diatomite on soil consistency limits and soil compactibility" by Ekrem Lutfi Aksakala, Ilker Anginb, , , and Taskin Oztasa Or "Effects of diatomite on soil physical properties" by the same authors. Also "Sustainable effects of diatomite on the growth criteria and phytochemical contents of Vicia faba plants." Mona M. Abdalla* Department of Botany, Faculty of Science, Ain Shams University, Cairo, Egypt. The Axis company also has great info on all amendments. As far as particle size, do a test. Fill a pot with sand, and one with gravel. Stick a pole in, and see which one gives more resistance. It seems to me gravel would. But I might be wrong? I don't know physics well enough to figure it out on paper. Ah and pumice is further dashed to the ground and called a fake, not a single user rises to defend. Well we can agree to disagree, my day job is a laboratory researcher,or was, I'm retired. If turface has various pore sizes then it is not very well made. Thanks for pointing that out. So you do not believe the manufacturer? Controlling pore size in fired clays is often accomplished with the use of polymers such as Polyethylene glycol. This process is extremely important to control how well purifiers work, or how well they hold up with the addition of salts. You are incorrect about the pore size. Yes pore sizes differs, but that process is used to make different products, and is very controlled. Turface is meant to have small pores size or it would ineffective in it's intended use. The porosity of fired clays is extremely important to have a consistent product such as fired brick used to built houses. Varying pore sizes will compromise the strength of the brick. Selling a product and manufacturing one are very different things. The pore size I reported is for calcinated clay. Range of pore sizes is from .1 -.01 microns. Median is .045 . Plants need a .2 micron minimum pore size to utilize. This info is from a study by Andreas Kalytta-Mewes, Kathrin Mattern, and Armin Reller University of Augsburg, Chair of Solid Body Chemistry Georg Armbruster Soil Laboratory. The pore analysis in the study was conducted by Quantachrome,Bavarian Institute of Applied Environmental Research and Applied Technology. Of course it appears none of these sources trump Al. Who has not provided any data at all to back his claims. Please prove to me that pore size is bigger, thinking Al is right because you sell clay products is not proof. After saying all this will turface work? Yes, it will. Works pretty good! Is it ideal? No, it's not, but what is? It's still worth trying for sure. It didn't work for me, but that means nothing. it has worked well for others. It would be nice if it allowed easier access to stored water, but it does store water, and air, and it lasts a long time, maybe 20 years. That's decent. It's a decent product, or appears to be. It would not be on the market if it didn't work. I know it's not meant for potted plants, but it is meant for grass. DE seems a better product, it has it's own problems. it is marketed though for plants more than ball fields, although it is marketed for that too. It's marketed for large commercial gardens. I use it in my garden. I use turface too for my grass, works well. Just not that well in pots for me. All i said that it didn't work for me. Sorry blame me, it's what you usually do when the mixes fail, you blame the poster. Many have said DE doesn't work for them. I actually believe them. All gardening is local. This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Dec 29, 14 at 15:33
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bakemom_gw
12 years ago
Sounds like a clay problem. If you need more seeds, post on the Newbie Seed Project thread. Get good soil.
pippi21
12 years ago
Did you mix your own potting mix or buy a commercial brand?

If you purchased a commerical brand..was it potting mix or potting soil or garden soil? Most wintersowers use potting mix, which is a lighter type of seed starting mix.

I have tried Miracle Grow, Espoma Organic potting mix and Fafard, and recently tried Hoffman's..I really liked the feel of the Fafard. Hate Miracle grow but that seems to be the one that most big box stores like Home Depot, and Lowe's sell. Miracle Grow seems full of junk to me, and heavy. I added perlite to it upon a veteran gardener's suggestion. The other day I drove a far distance to get more of the Fafard and when I got there in the Fall. I couldn't find the same bag and a supervisor was directing several employees that were stacking fertilizer or some other product on a pallet and asked if he could help me. I asked for what I had purchased before and it seems that garden center/nursery has stopped selling it because they started getting a lot of complains from gardeners. I just wonder if these manufacturers offer store owners big bonus bucks for pushing certain products? I worked in the food service industry for about 13 mo. years ago and manufacturers would offer food distributors big bonus money(we called it spiffs)for pushing their product. I have a feeling the same practice happens in the Garden center/nursery industry. I told him I had planned to sow flower seeds using 4 in. nursery pots outdoors..There were 2 or 3 varieties of Fafard there, but none of what I had bought before. He suggested Hoffman's which I had heard cons about. I took his advice but when I got home, I started thinking that maybe I hadn't explained myself well enough. Maybe he thought I was using the 4 in. pot indoors "under the lights ".

My suggestion to any wintersower, and I hope I will take my own advice the next time is to keep the empty bag or front of the bag of the product you find feels right to you. I had called ahead and spoke to a lady, explained what I was looking for, and she called that dept. and came back on the phone and said that they had the product I was looking for.
With the cost of gasoline these days, I think twice about driving a far distance to get a certain product when I might could use a similar product that is sold nearby.

Seems silly to save an empty bag of a product you used before and liked but maybe it will help you explain exactly the product you are looking for. If you don't want to save the entire bag, cut at least the front panel off. You can wash the soil that is left behind on the bag off, let it dry and it can be slipped inside a ziploc bag to take to the nursery/garden center if needed to show the employee exactly what you want.

I have never heard of any potting mix having clay added but I've only been sowing flowerseeds for 3 yrs. so I know I still have a lot to learn.

Hoping everything turns out okay for you. I hope my suggestion helps.
gumneck 7A Virginia
12 years ago
pippi21 writes "Seems silly to save an empty bag of a product you used before and liked but maybe it will help you explain exactly the product you are looking for."

Not silly at all. I do it all the time. I have a box of plastic bags of stuff I've used. Now I take photos of the labels too. (Also the plastic bags eventually come in handy when I'm weeding.)
jaggudada
Original Author
12 years ago
Miracle gro potting mix definitely looks lot different than what I had before. It doesn't seem like it will form hard rock, water should also drain much better as morz explained. The only thing I noticed is it doesn't seem like regular soil so I'm not sure how the seeds will germinate but I trust the experts, if they say it will work then it should work. It's amazing some of these people Bakemom, Morz etc etc were able to spot my problem over internet, like they say, they have been there, done that. You ask and they will help you. I'm not sure if adding some fine garden soil to potting mix will be better?

Question, when you use miracle gro and give it a good drink as suggested, how often you will have to water. or you basically look at the container and if the soil doesn't seem to dry don't water, water only when it looks dry. correct? Hopefully the condensation, evaporation cycle should retain the water in the container for long time, is this correct?
docmom_gw
12 years ago
I've always used a commercial potting mix and never added anything to it. I used Miracle grow for years because it was the only thing available. This year is the first time any of the garden centers carried the other stuff (can't remember the name--been working at computer stuff all day). I've always had good germination and good moisture control with anything. The container does a great job of preserving the moisture, just like you describe. As long as you can see condensation, you know there is at least a decent amount of moisture available. I never water containers until the weather is consistently in the 70s, unless they are in full sun. You can tell by how heavy they are whether they need a drink. And dunking them into a bucket of water for a minute, so the bottom can soak up some water, is the best way to restore a drying container. You should never have a completely dry container. That means certain demise for any tiny sprout or partially germinated seed.

OK I'm rambling. That's what a long day and half of a drink will do to a girl. Moral of the story--soilless potting mix with the lightest texture you can find, and you should have great luck with germination.

Martha
jaggudada
Original Author
12 years ago
Martha,

Those are some powerful insight and darn good observations. I learn something new everyday.

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